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121 Comments
- leighsah, on 10/12/2007, -36/+131The French allowed the Muslims into their country and treated them to all the entitlements without requiring the immigrants to integrate into French culture. Now the children of these immigrants are French-born (read citizens) Muslims who have a great sense of entitlement, think working the 35-hour work week is absurd, drop out of school in their early teens and wonder why no one will hire them even if they were inclined to work. Having no marketable skills other than arson and fire bombing certainly doesn't play any role in the high unemployment rate among the Muslin youth / .
The rest of Europe is looking at the same thing unless they get their head out of the sand. The Dutch cartoonists received death threats for publishing cartoons of Muhammad, a Dutch filmmaker was murdered, the July 7 train attacks in England, the train bombings in Spain, the beheaded priest, the death threats to the Pope, the killing of gays in Iran and the threats to all people not Muslim. The war in Afghanistan and Iraq may not be popular, but the world needs to wake up and realize the Islamic extremists are out to kill us. The entire Islamic religion may not be, but if the moderate Islamics allow the extremists to speak for them, then what are we to think.
I think this French unrest is but a gentle nudge for what is coming. - DCMacHead, on 10/12/2007, -16/+46@ leighsah
actually, there was a survey several months back that asked muslims if they consider themselves muslims first or citizens of their respective country first. the french muslims had the highest proportion of muslims identifying themselves as citizens of their country before muslims.
with that in mind, i find the murderous, violent ideology of islam to be very scary. france has tried the approach of integration, being understanding, giving them the benefit of the doubt, etc. how many violent muslims does it take until people stop viewing the violence as stemming from the extremists and calling it the norm? - Scagli3tti, on 10/12/2007, -5/+28@ ImTheDarkcyde
Misquoting a comment two comments above your own is retarded. Try copy and paste if your memory is that poor. - decay, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27I don't get it...
If I did this in America I would get owned...
Why are they largely unpunished ? - BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -4/+22"remember them amish, nope cant do that in the new america, doesnt matter if you have done it from the beginning of america.. native americans, give up your special rights... and black people, forget about those strange names you name your kids, you just arnt integrating into white pompous america."
Uhh, actually, Amish people are allowed to live how they want. They just have to put reflectors on their carriages so drunk soccer moms don't clobber the crap out of it. And last time I checked, black people can name their kids whatever they want. - archiesteel, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23leighsah, you are not well-informed of the root of the social unrest in France. It has little to do with Islam, or muslims, but rather of the disatrous urban planning that led to the creation of suburb ghettos which do not favor employment (i.e. they are isolated in distance from most commercial activity) and do not provide a generally healthy/uplifting living environment (if you've ever been there, you'll know what I'm talking about: they are about the ugliest architectural abominations known to man).
Bringing this back to the dangerous "clash of civilizations" meme is erroneous, in my view. As others have specified, muslims in France overwhelmingly see themselves as French citizens first, and muslims second (thanks to the constitutionally-enshrined principle of "laïcité"). The reason why most of the people who rioted (but not all) were muslims is that most of the people living in the suburbs are from North Africa. If it had been blacks or asians or eastern europeans who had been stuck in those projects, then those would have been the ones rioting.
I can't believe you were dugg up that much for that comment...I guess there really is a strong pro-"clash of civilization" sentiment on Digg...too bad you guys don't realize that this is exactly what the terrorists want. You want to defeat terrorism? Stop being afraid of muslims. React the exact opposite of what the terrorists expect. As Jesus himself said: "love thy enemy." You can't fight hate with more hate and fear. The only way you can defeat hate is with love. Is it harder? Hell yes...but no one said it'd be easy! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -19/+34I'm not even surprised. If I had to drive a french car I'd torch the sucker too.
French cars suck. - SimonGray, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21"The Dutch cartoonists received death threats for publishing cartoons of Muhammad"
Actually, people from Denmark are Danish, not Dutch.
Also, keep in mind that those statistics were inflated by this year's massive protests/riots + France is a country of more than 60 million people. - baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22i think if this was attempted in the USA there would be enough US citizens with firearms to put em down, i myself would shoot to kill if some violent teenagers came in to my neighborhood to riot & burn people's cars & homes & harm issocent civilians
- BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18It's not just radical muslims...it's *poor*, unemployed radical muslims.
If they had jobs and money this wouldn't be happening. Not that it makes it OK, but that is the reason they're doing this. - BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13"If that is indeed the case, why then is there such a big problem with street gangs in large US cities? Aren't there enough US citizens with firearms to "put em down"?"
This is a good point. But the difference being that gangs in the US typically stay in their own hood and don't venture out to commercial districts to randomly burn cars. Actually, gang violence in the USA is very contained and the victims of these crimes are *usually* fellow gangbangers or immediate friends/family caught up in it.
If Crips started rolling into the suburbs stealing cars and stereos they would be getting picked off left and right by gun owners. - frednofr, on 10/12/2007, -13/+25The thing is, it wasn't muslims burning cars, but jobless kids that feel their only way to be part of society is to make a hell out of it. They do this because they don't risk anything : in France, minors are largely unpunished.
I have lived close to such a neigbourhood, so I know what I'm talking about. The most extreme muslims aren't the ones burning cars. Instead, they go to Iraq/Afghanistan to blow up americans. - etnu, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Most? How many muslims do you actually know?
Peaceful people don't make it on the news. - lordfly, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16Ah, the anti-muslim comments on digg. Soon to be digged down.
Every religion has its extremists. Extremist Christians try to get into the governments and run it their way; extremist Muslims try to blow stuff up and reign terror on non-believers; Extremist Jewish folks attack Palestinians... Extremist Bhuddists, uh... pray really hard? Relax too much?
Anyways, the French situation is depressing; a year without any fix in the works is a shocking revelation. If there are riots int he streets every day for a year, and you haven't done anything about it, for God's sake, get out of office. - bobbybobington, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10FTA:
Amor Benna, 61, the Tunisian father of Zyed, appealed this week to the young to refrain from violence and use their votes for change.“I don’t want to see cars burning again,” he said from his home on the Chêne Pointu estate. But the unhappiness was understandable, said M Benna, a street cleaner. “The young were born here and they are French. But they have nothing. The real problem is work. If they had any these riots would not have happened.” - BigKitty, on 10/12/2007, -10/+20I agree completely, and I thank you for posting this.
I doubt that that the mainstream news media will stop trying to pass off such incidents as simple hooliganism rather than Islamic expansionist aggression, until it is too late. That's why we have the Internet, and that's why we need to spread the word to everyone, using all means of communication available to us. - baalzebub, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12RE: Tyr7BE if those gangs are just killing rival gangs i dont care, the ghetto trash can kill eachother all they want and i wont stand in the way, but once they enter my neighborhood i will defend my self and my property vigilantly...
- iggee85, on 10/12/2007, -9/+17@leighsah
"The French allowed the Muslims into their country and treated them to all the entitlements without requiring the immigrants to integrate into French culture. Now the children of these immigrants are French-born (read citizens) Muslims who have a great sense of entitlement, think working the 35-hour work week is absurd, drop out of school in their early teens and wonder why no one will hire them even if they were inclined to work. Having no marketable skills other than arson and fire bombing certainly doesn't play any role in the high unemployment rate among the Muslin youth."
You clearly don't understand what's happening over there. The youth rioters are all from poor neighbourhoods and include Africans, Portuguese, Turks, Algerians, many of whom happen to be Muslims. Even some native French youths took part in these riots.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/07/international/europe/07france.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=aef3c7e7d91c69aa&ex=1161662400
They all come from neighbourhoods where the unemployment rate is much higher than anywhere else. The high rate of unemployment is caused by racism in French society, if you don't have a French sounding name, the odds are already stacked against you.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399748.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4408972.stm
These riots were not ignited by lazy immigrants, they started back in 2005 when three teenagers (from Mali, Turkey and Tunisia) were electrocuted running from the police. And I guess these minorities had enough and started rioting. It's not about their sense of entitlement and unwillingness to work and integrate into French society. It's a manifestation of their unhappiness and anger at the systematic racism they see everyday. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14No wonder the french hold the political positions that they do... they're foreign policy has become a victim to their immigration policies... humm... The US could learn a thing or two from this situation.
- sardion2000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Seems more similiar to the Rodney King riots then Islamic Extremism. If they were Extremists they would be blowing themselves up in droves and planting IED's any and everywhere.
- guigui42, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16No where in the article Muslims are mentioned...
The only mentioned ones are IMMIGRANTS.
You guys mix up everything with your war on terror and Muslim Extremists.
All those riots and burned cars are a result of a 30 years old french policy, that forced the immigrant workers (that France needed at that time) to live in a "gettho", in poorly made and maintained buildings.
Of course, over the years, some radical muslims used this increased poverty to recruit people, but it is only ONE of the many aspects, that led those people to riots.
Now, what they do is wrong, and they should be punished for what they did, but dont blame the muslims for every car burnt in France.
Its far more complicated than that, even if oversea media covered the story as "muslim rioting and burning cars", it wasnt the case, some of them were of course... but the only common point between all the rioters were that they were young, unemployed and probably from immigrant parents, and living in the HLM(those poorly maintained buildings) - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8As TFA stated, if there were jobs, they wouldn't riot. But the reforms they rioted against would have given them jobs. The reforms would have made it easier to fire people. As it stands, it's almost impossible to fire someone in France. Which means you outsource and don't hire people in France because you will be stuck with underperformers and there's nothing you can do.
Mix in the immigrants and the fact that there aren't enough jobs to go around, and you have a few people with jobs and the rest are SOL, living on the government, getting angry and resentful.
France is in dire straits, not because of 'islamic insurgency' but because of economic problems which it refuses to face up to. Using terms like 'islamic insurgency' just takes attention away from the real problem of economic reforms. No one wants to be told they could be fired more easily, but it's a bitter pill which they must swallow sooner rather than later. - DisposableRob, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9The big difference is that people come to the US because our employment laws allow for anyone who needs a job to compete for one, with the most qualified person likely to get it and less qualified people get fired. People leave a crappy economic situation in their native country for a much better economic situation in the US.
France's employment laws don't allow for this style of competition, so hard-working immigrants are less likely to get a job because it is already filled with someone who is much less likely to get fired and create more job openings. People leave the crappy economic situations in their homeland and come to France and remain in a crappy economic situation.
This isn't about Islamic extremism, it's about disenfranchised people of every type. - gaoshan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I gotta agree with the American reaction being tougher than the French reaction. Look what happened in the L.A. riots some years back. The rioters, mostly black, were rioting in their own neighborhoods. When the rioting started to spread you saw images on TV of shop owners armed with shotguns, pistols and even assault rifles guarding their property. Try to bust into one of their shops and there would be one less rioter.
- Frodo42, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6First, I'm trying to focus on the example set by the founders of the religions. Buddha comes out clean, obviously. Jesus too, though he did upset a few traders :)
Muhammad, on the other hand, set quite a different example. I think I've referenced enough kinds of crime so far, but if you push me, I'll throw in some more.
Holocaust was, FYI, executed by the Nazis, not by the church. Dark Ages was no crime, it was actually a fairly OK period - but inventing the press sure helped a lot! Inquisition and witch hunts were bad stuff. But in contrast with modern-day terrorism, they were unfounded in the scriptures and the example set by the founder of Christianity.
Anyway, try reading some real stuff about Muhammad. It surprised me a lot. I can't imagine how modern, decent people can take this person as an example of good behaviour. - solarisom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Funny how this story makes it appear like a conflict between Islamism and the police, instead of the suburb versus the police. I lived in a French suburb in the summer (one that participated in the riots), and it had 53 ethnicities, not uncommon for a suburb. These suburbs are so ethnically diverse that radical Islam doensn't permeate there, but the media is making the biggest mistake of all, polarizing the developed world against Islam.
And instead of dealing with the reasons why suburban youth burn cars (yes we should punish them, but we have to look at the causes to STOP them), Interior Minister Sarkozy calls them "scum" who should be washed off the streets. And the reward for Sarkozy's opportunism for polarizing this issue? He will be president, no doubt. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Oh, yea, forgot to mention Jesus Camp. Well, just watch the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_EKHK1C2IE - jblade, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14@DCMacHead
"actually, there was a survey several months back that asked muslims if they consider themselves muslims first or citizens of their respective country first. the french muslims had the highest proportion of muslims identifying themselves as citizens of their country before muslims."
You actually made that stat up.
Good job. - Eoxx, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@leighsah
I'm not French, but I know France better than Us citizen seems to ...cause I follow the French news on a daily basis and I live à 300 km from Paris, have French friends
The fact is that your comment is for 90% of it absurd ... And not helpful ...
Immigrants in France were asked to come in France because France needed hands to do work (50 to 60 years ago)... and France had not enough workers ... Those immigrants were not treated well, in fact they were imported from colonies or ex colonies to support the country ... and they were also used during the war to fight against Nazis ..
Those immigrant finally stayed in the land, they had kids that were born as French citizens ..
1. Not all of those immigrants were Muslims, not all of their children are Muslims ..
2. Not all of those immigrants do burn cars . not all people that burn cars are Muslims - not all Muslims are extremists ... we're talking of about a thousand people max for the entire land (60 million people) : and the result was one dead (before the riots)
- how many cars and house did burn during LA riots ?
- how many people killed during LA riots ?
3. 35 hours ? What kind of an argument is that ? Is 35 hours making new terrorists ?
4. The riots in France were not related to terrorism ... they were related to a possible police "error" that lead to the death of a kid ... this was the start of the riots ... The start but not the reason, cause tension do exist for at least 20 years in Paris suburbans
5. In France some Suburban places do have serious problems - security problems, mainly - this doesn't mean that people leaving there are criminals it means that some group of people do their best to keep the place as unsafe as possible ... They give a bad opinion to the public on people leaving there ... Some politicians are using the hard way to change this but the only result is confrontation, kid dying and no winners .. The only people that win there are extremists (right extremists and Muslim extremists) that recruit or gain voters on basis of frustration hate and violence that people endure each days ...
Some of this violence is imported from outside of Europe like Palestine Israel war, Irak war, etc ..
"the train bombings in Spain" are the results of Spain supporting US in Irak ... 9-11 terrorist were mostly coming from Saudi Arabia
And most of terrorist ("imported" or born in the country) are brainwashed like people in a sect ... extremists do use tension in the middle east and "War against terror" in Irak and Afghanistan to recruit more people ...
Don't tell European lands that they are putting their head in/out of the sand ... cause we're aware of extremism and terrorism for a longer time than US .. you wake up one day with a "world on terror", and "guess what?" this has always exist and part of this terror was cause by "subtile" geopolitics made by US and Europe in the middle east or also by "not convenient" friendship with dictators or oil kings that don't really promote democracy in their respective regions...
France has more spy intelligence on the fields that US has, they know what extremism, terrorism are - they have lived bombings in the past (several bombs from probably extremists did explode in Paris decades before 9-11) and they did give information about possible treats in US before 9-11 but US did not take this info into account.
And by the way pointing immigrants as terrorist is creating tension that could lead some of them in the hand of extremists ... War in Irak has created a "guerrilla war academy" for all extremists that like to make a franchise of "Al quaeda" anywhere in the world ...
Pointing France and Europe for some burned car is not a good counter fire for the mess US is giving to the world lately ..
Hope some Us citizens will change their government soon for the best ...
Or if Us is putting itself as leader of the world , perhaps will it be fair to give us (rest of the world) electoral rights so we have the privilege to vote for the next "World leader of the free world" ... Cause this guy makes some important choices for us that will change our future for a long time so we would like to have some democratic power to make him chose its decision wisely . - foolfromhell, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I know atleast 30 muslims and have seen hundreds, only one is violent, but that is personal. I lived in india for almost ad decade..... no crazies there
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6If only they could have got to Alonso's Renault F1 ;(
Stupid French. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8MAJORstrasser: You are just spouting off the usual politically correct logic (or lack thereof).
1. The original Crusades were initiated IN DEFENSE by the Christians because of others invading and trying to conquer, this began the rivalry. Educate yourself before you try to educate others.
2. Invaders of the Americas were Catholics (arguably distinct from Christianity as they have idols, statues, saints, etc). These people and the indians were FRIENDLY and co-existed, they traded, they helped eachother, among other things. Most of the time, it was the indians themselves due to lack of tolerance who started the violence (can't blame them but that's besides the point).
3. The rest of the things you spouted are debatable, along with other ridiculous little phrases you threw in there simply to sneak in more political correctness by trying to pass off "Anti-semitism" and "The holocaust" as Christians.
Hahaha, get out of town and stop trying to manipulate people into believing your biased crud. - wingnut21, on 10/12/2007, -9/+13My God, this is just scary. The rioters are ruining it for everyone and just ASKING for an other holocaust. France can prevent this by not taking this *****. The government's primary responsibility is to protect its people, and it is not. It's sad that it has come to this, but the military needs to get out there and restore order.
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My guess for number of cars torched from vandals, across the whole US, would be about 30 - a YEAR - tops. And that's only when some of the more wild towns win the superbowl.
The US simply does not have anywhere near the same level of unemployment or large scale ghettos that France has. We do not have riots on the same scale with any freqency. - DrakeGTA, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@lordfly, This is what an "Extremist Bhuddist" does.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Thich_Quang_Duc_-_Self_Immolation.jpg
- Erata, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"France is in dire straits, not because of 'Islamic insurgency' but because of economic problems which it refuses to face up to."
Correction: France is in dire straits not because of Islamic insurgency, but because of economic problems. The problem does not however come from the government, which has tried to pass several reforms, but from left wing demagogy, which has convinced people that those reforms were bad for the individuals. The government should have resisted popular pressure, but you would not believe the disinformation that happens over there. Left wing political activist are passing out papers at the exit of high schools and colleges to push students to go in the street, which they do because its fun and it allows them to miss school for a "good cause". For having read one of those hand outs, they are not only full of imprecisions, but they are usually made up from beginning to end, full of gross overstatements and lies.
To conclude, the problem does not come from all those young people in the suburbs, nor does it really come from the government, it is the french people that refuses to open its eyes and is not ready to give up some of its privileges for the good of the country
Sorry for all the spelling mistakes, English is obviously not my native language. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6These people are unintegrated immigrants, many of which are muslims.
Muslims refuse to integrate into society and somehow it's everyone else's fault that THEY fail. I see the same thing here, although no one wears the full veil, they wouldn't dare, they'd get shot.
I see immigrants for all over the world, smart guys (I live in Silicon Valley), but many refuse to integrate. Chinese ONLY buy stuff at Chinese markets, Indians only at indian places, they ONLY live next door to others from their same race.
I'm a migrant, go to a bar on a Saturday night and you'll see the place full of locals, none of which are immigrants. They do not even try to fit in. - rogerbannister, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@BassCadet
"If they had jobs and money this wouldn't be happening."
Ignorance! Just about ALL of the British 7/7 bombers had an education, good jobs and were well integrated into British society. Giving these people "jobs and money" just increases their lethality. Muslims only understand one thing: force. - donloper, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4This is the first comment on this article that strikes at the heart of the issue. The core problem has nothing to do with Islam, although there may be cultural factors that exacerbate the issue, but rather what is needed is economic reform. What is ironic is that we've got young people rioting because they have no jobs, and when the government tries to do something about a 10% unemployment rate by changing the laws to encourage more hiring of young people, the young people riot against the proposed law until it is taken off the table.
And nobody in power in France appears to have the intestinal fortitude to push the solution through, even though it would fix the problem quickly. I don't understand how the French youths don't get it. Maybe French politicians just aren't very good at explaining their intentions. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Can't forget this whack-job Becky saying, more or less, that we have to out radicalize the Islamic radicals, "because we have, excuse me, because we have the truth."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JECP9qzjmF0&mode=related&search= - ICSU, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9You would never had independent USA without those "stupid spineless French", you clown.
- Frodo42, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Yes, I heard about the Crusades. Actually I bought a book about them for the reason that Islam apologists always shout: "The Crusades!" when I point out that Islam is inherently a violent religion. I've been all through the history of the Crusades, and while it was initially a religously motivated counter-offensive to the Seljuk (Turk) conquests of Asia Minor and Judea, they soon degenerated towards the usual squabbles over land and rights. They were never campaigns intend on converting people by the sword.
Military campaigns aside, I'm actually pointing to something quite different, namely the examples given by the founders of the religions. Jesus we all know quite well (I assume), he was actually an example of peace and tolerance, and to divide religion from state affairs. That the church messed it up later is another matter. Gutenberg and the printing press helped to set that right.
Compare this to Muhammad. I was actually being mild to Muhammad above, not mentioning heavy polygamy, rape, slave trade, genocide etc. Muhammad, as a historical fact, broke all of the Ten Commandments in person, claiming permission from Allah each time. The example he gave was of a plundering warlord. And that is according to the Islamic canonical scriptures. Later hagiographies by Karen Armstrong etc. don't count, original sources do.
As long as Muhammad is considered an 'excellent example' for Muslims, we'll have trouble. We need to provide them more constructive role models. - kylesellers, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Wow! Don't they have free universal healthcare, ultra political correctness, government mandated unions, high minimum wage, the largest susidies for the poor of any country in Europe, etc.?? How could they possibly be unhappy? /sarcasm
France is a perfect example of why economic liberalism leads to collapse. Governments are too slow, bloated, and inefficient to control the economy, plus they have a vested interest in creating dependency. And that is the core of conservatism (which sadly, very few elected conservatives seem to remember). - L0t3k, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3
He was talking about the founder, not what everyone else has done to obtain money and power since. That would be a very long post, regardless of the religion. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7To those who say Islam is radical, I turn your attention to Christianity. Case point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JECP9qzjmF0&mode=related&search=
"I want to see young people as committed to Jesus Christ as the young people are to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are in Pakistan and in...in..Israel and Palestine and all those different places., you know, because we have, excuse me, but we have the truth."
Look at what she and people like her are doing to children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PXrBQlN9Rw&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G8_jzmta90&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AepKW4Jn0t4&mode=related&search= - geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3y a des ricains qui vivaient en France et des autres pays. C'est quoi le taux de chomage, 2 chiffres? Bien sur y a des ricains qui connaissent pas la france malgre le fait qu'ils parlent beaucoup de france. Mais ca ne change pas le fait que la France a un gros probleme avec son economie. Moi, je suis un jeune ricain qui a cree ma propre societee, et un jeune francais, qu'est-ce qu'il va faire dans sa vie... Il va vivre sans espoir. Oui on a beacoup de debiles comme notre president. Mais on a aussi Google, Oracle, Microsoft, EMC, meme digg. Et toi? Je pense que orangina appartient a coke si ton gouvernemnt ne l'a pas bloque. Voila ta France. Aux EU on a l'espoir, on peut etre un debile comme notre president, avec son fusile et son chapeau de cowboy ou on peut creer son entreprise avec beaucoup de travaille. Le but n'est pas deviendre riche(mais cela aide), let but c'est d'etre bien paye pour ton propre travaille, cela est a la base necessaire pour la bete humaine qui est intelligente et veut plus dans la vie. j'aime votre pays may y a aussi des problems. Je pense que vos problemes sont plus graves. Sans l'espoir tu n'as rien.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3They just got lucky.
- archiesteel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Wow...lots of bigotry here today....
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The Silent Revolution.
- Frodo42, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5"I lived in india for almost ad decade..... no crazies there"
Except for the ones blowing up rush hour trains in Mumbai, the gangs fighting in Kashmir, and the organisations in Pakistan who wish to reestablish Islamic rule over Northern India.
Apart from that, no trouble at all... -
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