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178 Comments
- Lucas123, on 05/07/2009, -2/+32We're a collective. We're chipping in so that a resource is available to all. Your argument is like saying that because someone has never had to call the fire department they shouldn't have to pay taxes for it. Or, if they don't have children, they shouldn't have to pay for schools. Mass transportation is a benefit to society in general in that it reduces road surface traffic, parking needs and vehicle emissions.
- opitica, on 05/08/2009, -4/+28distance from airport: ~5 miles
time takes to drive: 15 min
time takes to use bus: 1 hour - Lucas123, on 05/07/2009, -3/+23While it's true that the government does subsidize public transportation, you should take into consideration two things:
1) it's far better for the environment.
2) the government's going to rape you anyways, you might as well enjoy the fruits of it. - Laminarcissus, on 05/08/2009, -1/+17Plus, the benefits of arriving at work dust-covered and sweaty.
- blitzkriegpunk, on 05/08/2009, -4/+20This is great, but unfortunately, not a viable option for most Americans.
- Octanum, on 05/08/2009, -0/+16Hey, that's enough to buy a car!
- Kaosaur, on 05/08/2009, -2/+15How much more do we save if we ride a bike?
Please also keep track of health benefits of physical fitness and the reduced car traffic & air pollution when you're considering the figures. - Laminarcissus, on 05/08/2009, -2/+13Do you even own a car? In a city?
Lease, depreciation, insurance, gas, repairs & parking? Easy.
Down the street from me in New York a monthly spot is $350 per month alone... - lamejoketeller, on 05/08/2009, -1/+11Welcome to the internet. Feel free to use profanity.
- Kaosaur, on 05/08/2009, -2/+11@zacharytelschow - Even the most hardcore, anal libertarians I know are VERY much in favor of government providing essential services that serve the public good like public transportation.
Only an ***** doesn't see the benefits of a robust public transportation system. - sigmaman2, on 05/08/2009, -0/+9The problem for me (and I assume for a lot of other people) is that public transportation is not efficient enough. I would love to take the bus or a subway to where I want to go. The problem is that often times the bus and subway systems don't coordinate with each other. And sometimes they are in direct competition with each other.
And let's face it...we Americans are obsessed with speed, power, and independence. And what could fill those desires more than barreling down the road, in a new Mustang GT, with a full tank of gas, and no particular place to go? Riding a crowded bus doesn't give you that same feeling.
Right now, people DESIRE to be in cars. That won't change until people desire to take the bus. - robertisaar, on 05/08/2009, -6/+14Buried, do you honestly spend 12.6K a year driving?
insurance, gas, registration, maintnence... what else are they figuring in to get that ridiculous number? - inactive, on 05/08/2009, -1/+8time it takes to recover from the BO of the guy sitting 4 rows away: 5 hours
- LonesomeFighter, on 05/08/2009, -0/+7those facts weren't really fun to read. maybe it's how you wrote it. not sure
- Kaosaur, on 05/08/2009, -1/+8Sorry, my office has a shower and I can take a change of clothes.
And it's catching on. - Kaosaur, on 05/08/2009, -1/+7I just helped my friend calculate how much he saves by taking taxis everywhere he goes compared to his father who maintains a car, gas, insurance, maintenance, etc.
$7000 a year. In New York City. And he's a $50 cab ride from the city (he's in Bayside Queens). Now think of how much more he'd save taking the train. - spazzm2008, on 05/08/2009, -1/+7How much does the tax payer save by spending less on roads?
- herk255, on 05/08/2009, -3/+9If you spend $12,600 a year to drive to work, that averages out to nearly $50 per day. How the ***** does that work?
- J353, on 05/08/2009, -2/+8Less than $12.6k per year.
- schnikies79, on 05/08/2009, -0/+6@Kaosaur
Mine doesn't, plus I have to take the interstate to work. You can't ride non-motorized vehicles on the interstate.
If I take the non-interstate route, it's an extra 25 miles, but then I don't live or work in a metro area. - manova, on 05/08/2009, -0/+6Umm, when I lived in Boston, my car insurance was around $100/month. Didn't seem cute at the time.
- ninewhereman, on 05/08/2009, -0/+6Yeah that's a bit high. Between me and my wife it is about 4 to 5k in a normal year. I'd like to see a full account of all those numbers.
I don't think they factored in time saved driving and how much easier it is to keep a job when you are mobile. That alone would reduce that rate. My hour a day both ways is well worth 4k a year. - plunkettt, on 05/08/2009, -0/+5Actual link to article, with chart: http://www.apta.com/media/releases/090506_transit_ ...
- N3M3515, on 05/08/2009, -0/+5Nerys I doubt it is total rubbish if you look at the typical person that has a car payment.. I have been watching Dave Ramsey lately his statement was the average car payment in america is around 450 dollars a month. That right there is 5400 per year + licensing 200 - 500 depending on state, gas lets say 150 per month thats 1800 per year plus lets say full 150 for full coverage - thats another 1800. Plus servicing of the vehicle throw 500 at it per year. 5400 + 300 + 1800 + 1800 + 500 = 9800 per year. I maybe forgot something, or the 12k maybe a little high, I would guess that saving 12k a year is a bit of a stretch...
But consider when you drive that brand new car off the lot you just lot 7% and over the next four years you will lose %70 of the value of that vehicle. Makes me want to take public transit, or drive a car 4+ years old :D - Laminarcissus, on 05/08/2009, -2/+7Robertisaar:
I really don't have the energy to go through the whole thing, so let's just run with the idea of depreciation.
Now I sense that you're a literalist, so keep in mind that this is just an example that should be modified for your particular situation:
In general, a car loses 15% - 20% of its value each year. New cars even more.
Let's say you have a 1-year-old used car worth $12,000 that loses 15 percent of its value each year. At 2 years old, the car would be worth $10,200. At 3 years old, it would be worth $8,670. Therefore you're facing between a $1,500 and $1,800 depreciation expense every year even if you kept it in perfect condition. If you bought the car new, first year depreciation alone can be killer, with the retail/wholesale depreciation as much as 20 percent the minute you drive it off the lot.
That depreciation is considered (properly) as an expense, because your asset is losing value no matter how good a mechanic you are. That's value you're going to have to replace with cold hard cash when it comes time to get a new ride.
Depreciation is an expense just like parking, and often the most significant expense associated with owning a car. - wakkow, on 05/08/2009, -0/+5If I read your post correctly and my math is right:
Train Dollar per Passenger mile per year: 18 cents
Car Dollar per passenger mile per year: .7 cents
It's almost 26x more expensive per passenger miles per year for train vs. car. I'm not saying that means we shouldn't subsidize trains, just that your argument doesn't make sense. - charm803, on 05/08/2009, -0/+5I live in a small city that is walking distance to the beach, library, convenience store and restaurants.
I didn't appreciate it until gas started getting more and more expensive.
I don't know how much I've saved, but I also managed to replace the gym. We should all get off our lazy butts more often. - zacharytelschow, on 05/07/2009, -16/+21Rider saves $12.6k. How much does that cost the taxpayer through subsidizing the train?
- Nerys, on 05/08/2009, -4/+9Lets see. I paid $4500 for my Cherokee. I put less than $4000 in repairs into the car ($2800 of that was my mom getting it stuck in part time four wheel drive damaging the drive train) so in reality about $1200 in repairs.
About $1500 in consumables (tires brakes fluids etc..)
$100 to register it another $360 in yearly registration fees. about $800 for "inspections")
Thats $8460 dollars over its life. How about gas? well thats a little harder gas was a lot cheaper. but at an estimate I would say about $21,000 in gasoline.
$3000 in insurance over the last decade.
SO my TOTAL cost of ownership is about $32,460 including EVERY ASPECT of ownership.
or roughly $3200 a year.
I put 405,000 miles on the truck (had 92k on the clock when I bought it)
that's about 8cents a mile TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP including all the government FORCED fees that I do not want.
Find me a train that beats that. I commute 54 miles ONE WAY. 99.9999% of the time I have 2 other people in the car with me.
ONE WAY on the train would cost me over $16 and thats PER PERSON. so for the 2 of us that's almost $100 PER DAY.
I could rent a car for less than that. I could drive a god damned hummer for less than that.
and don't be a moron and tell me to MOVE the cost of moving would cost more than multiple lifetimes of car ownership.
Saving $12,600 by taking the train is complete and utter rubbish. You can buy a good reliable car for under $2000 and the yearly cost of ownership is not remotely close to $10,600
Rubbish.
Oh and lets not forget the lost time. takes me 80-85 minutes to get to work the TRAIN would me closer to 5-6 HOURS each way. Yeah right.
If you live in NYC or another crazy expensive no parking city scape then the train does not save you money over a car its the ONLY way for you to get around if your not rich enough to own a space. - inactive, on 05/08/2009, -0/+5That's funny because there's no train or public transport service within 60 miles of where I live.
- WhiskeyLemur, on 06/30/2009, -0/+5In the suburbs and in the country you can't live without a car - I always get annoyed when people who clearly don't know the realities blithely spout off nonsense about "just taking the bus." But in the few places in the US where the infrastructure is well developed, it it *so* worth it to take the bus or subway.
- bridow, on 05/08/2009, -2/+6I live in SF and just rent a car when I need it for road trips at 40/day. The high cost of an apartment is off-set by not having a car.
Car Payment - 400-450/month (for a 20-25k car)
Insurance - 150/month
Parking Space - 200-250/month
Taxes, Reg, etc... - 1200/year
Gas - 200/month
+maintence (oil change, tires, etc...)
That's over 1k a month - cenobyte40000, on 05/08/2009, -2/+6WTF? These guys are on crack. Maybe if you drive a overpriced car, 50 miles each way and have 2 DUIs on your licence.
Car payments, gas, insurance for both me and my wifes can last year (one 7 mile commute, one 25 mile) was not that much (75 insurance, $550 in car payments, $150 a month in gas, plus about $200 a year in tax, title, plates, inspection, plus about 300 a year in work OR $9800). And that's before yoiu buy the train tickets. - enigmatics, on 05/08/2009, -1/+5You are all morons. The $12.6k is not how much it costs for one person to use the train for a year. It is how much that person would save not having to spend money on gas, car maintenance, buying a car, taking a taxi, etc...
If plenty of people use the train the cost per person is pittance compared to the amount a person would spend otherwise. - willdelaney, on 05/08/2009, -0/+4I'M ON A TRAIN ***** DON'T YOU EVA FORGET
- inactive, on 05/08/2009, -0/+4Stop being an ignorant ***** no nothing anti-social republican. Go live in a unibomber shack.
- Yeyui, on 05/08/2009, -0/+4"METHODOLOGY
"APTA calculates the average cost of taking public transit by determining the average monthly transit pass of local public transit agencies across the country. This information is based on the annual APTA fare collection survey and is weighted based on ridership (unlinked passenger trips). The assumption is that a person making a switch to public transportation would likely purchase an unlimited pass on the local transit agency, typically available on a monthly basis.
"APTA then compares the average monthly transit fare to the average cost of driving. The cost of driving is calculated using the 2009 AAA average cost of driving formula. AAA cost of driving formula is based on variable costs and fixed costs. The variable costs include the cost of gas, maintenance and tires. The fixed costs include insurance, license registration, depreciation and finance charges. The comparison also uses the average mileage of a mid-size auto at 23.4 miles per gallon and the price for self-serve regular unleaded as recorded by AAA on May 5 at $2.079 per gallon. The analysis also assumes that a person will drive an average of 15,000 miles per year. The savings assume a household gives up one car.
"In determining the cost of parking, APTA uses the data from the 2008 Colliers International Parking Rate Study for monthly unreserved parking rates for the United States.
From http://www.publictransportation.org/facts/090506_t ... - WhiskeyLemur, on 06/30/2009, -1/+5Don't know about Boston, but garage parking in NYC is around $300-400 a month, with a monthly contract. That's $3,600 to $4,800 a year right there. There are also tolls to get into and/or out of the city (depending on which way you go). I believe they are around $10 (less with EZ-Pass or carpooling), so add that on top of the price.
The $12K a year still sounds very high, unless you're talking about lease costs or insurance for luxury cars, public transportation is a godsend even so. Even with the price of train tickets as high as it is ($360 for my monthly right now), even with subway fares going up 25% at the end of May, it's still a fraction of the cost of driving in. - Kaosaur, on 05/08/2009, -2/+6But Nerys...
...do you live in Boston?
Yes? Okay.
No? *throws your figures in the garbage* - LukeBeaumont, on 05/08/2009, -1/+5He didn't question your math, he questioned your logic which affected the math.
- 42Vindictive, on 05/08/2009, -0/+4Holy formatting batman!
- LonesomeFighter, on 05/08/2009, -0/+4well ya one could get thermal underwear, windbreakers, reflective vests, lights, snow tires for bikes, backpacks, hats, helmets, gloves, biking shoes, and whatever else needed to ride a bike almost any day. But all that stuff costs money, and many roads are not bike friendly. Also while some work places have showers for those who may sweat, some places don't.
i'm not trashing riding bikes, i ride my bike, but at the same time when i wake up in the winter and it's icy and freezing cold outside, my motivation and lack of winter riding accessories has me looking at my heated car. plus my main job is 50ish miles away, so i'll take my car. - duncan202, on 05/08/2009, -0/+4As someone who commutes to Boston, on the T -- I assure you this is *****.
And despite a recent rise in ridership, and significant increases in both ticket and parking prices -- the MBTA is utterly insolvent. - lamejoketeller, on 05/08/2009, -0/+3not over mount sutro, at least in the shape that I'm in...whoo-ee
- LonesomeFighter, on 05/08/2009, -1/+4i feel i have to step in. while bikes are good, there are draw backs.
it's cold outside and many live far away - americanoboy, on 05/08/2009, -0/+3i had to take a train today. my trip consisted of waiting for a train that came 15 minutes late. when it finally arrived, it was so filled that i had to stand facing a guy's open armpit (he was holding the top bar for balance) for 30 minutes. it was supposed to be 10 minute ride but there was another late train in front of us, so ours had to go slow. when i got off at grand central, i was hit with a foul stench of sewage. heading up the stairs, my ears were violated by a violin player who attracted some crackhead in a business suit that was break dancing to the melody. after every little turn i made as i headed towards the exit, i was hassled by spammers who were shoving their fliers in my face. finally, as i reached the exit, some redneck woman was trying to scam people with some charity scheme.
on the way back story repeats itself, and now includes teenagers trying to sell me candy at 3x the price. - diggydougie, on 05/08/2009, -1/+4If public transportation made sense for everyone everyone would be using it. But for the majority of us it doesn't. Who wants to take a train or a bus to the grocery store? And how about those (nearly weekly) trips to home depot for lumber? Cars simply make sense. We just need to power them with new fuels.
- Laminarcissus, on 05/08/2009, -2/+5You know what? You win.
If you don't lease your car, and then completely ignore the diminishing value of the car you own and the fact that someday you will need to buy a new one, you live in an area where insurance costs $100 per month which is the cutest little thing I ever did hear, be a mechanic and maintain your own car, and not include city monthly parking which was specifically mentioned in the article as an included cost, then yes, it will come out to be less.
I just hope you're not an accountant for a living. - schnikies79, on 05/08/2009, -0/+3I'm in the same boat as the parent.
I'm not moving because of lack of public transportation. I like living close to nature, not close to people. - inactive, on 05/08/2009, -0/+3Sick, i'll be living in Boston for college next year. Though, according to the comments, they're raising the fare soon :(
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