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- jMichaelEdwards, on 07/15/2009, -8/+37Way to go, Ontario
- freezerburn666, on 07/16/2009, -1/+25good things grow-o-o in ontarioooooooo
- Gman1223, on 07/16/2009, -0/+20Ontario is a province, it's also bigger than Texas.
- Valleye, on 07/16/2009, -0/+11BTW, RTFA, Ontario the province not the city. And we use a mix of nuclear, Niagara Falls, Coal and Natural Gas.
- homercles337, on 07/16/2009, -6/+17Its called an INCENTIVE for a reason. Hybrid and electric are the up and coming technologies, and did you really compare a huge SUV hybrid with a tiny can of a car?
- Waynerz99, on 07/16/2009, -0/+10Man i'm getting sick of hearing that commercial...but its so catchy that i read that comment to the tune of the song...
- demne, on 07/16/2009, -1/+10So now they subsidize electric cars. Problem is in the summer they ask homeowners to cut back on power consumption because they can't meet the demand. The option for another nuclear power station is out of the question (***** hippies) and windmills wont cut it.
- swicken, on 07/16/2009, -1/+9I smell a tinfoil hat.
- mikevsshark, on 07/16/2009, -2/+10Put it in metric and I'll let ya know ;)
- marm0lade, on 07/16/2009, -0/+8Your e-dick did not get any bigger by name dropping Audi TT. Sorry.
- mikevsshark, on 07/16/2009, -1/+9I also heard that the city of California is powered by coal.
- salmonz, on 07/15/2009, -16/+24This program is for "hybrid" and "electric" vehicles only. It excludes all other vehicles.
So - I am a bit ticked off by this.
I own a Toyota Yaris - 50MPG (according to Toyota.ca), and guess what, it's excluded by our government's definition.
1. Qualified for the ecoAuto rebate in 2007. $1500 rebate.
2. "2008 Green Car of the Year" in the UK, by the Environmental Transport Association (ETA).
http://www.hitachicapitalvehiclesolutions.co.uk/ne ...
3. Yaris exempted from London's congestion charge:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/02/13/toyota-ayg ...
Comparing electric/hybrid to Yaris using US's EPA #'s:
Yaris vs. Hylander Hybrid:
City Fuel Economy (mpg):
2009 Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 27
2009 Toyota Yaris: 29
Highway Fuel Economy (mpg):
2009 Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 25
2009 Toyota Yaris: 36
Combined Fuel Economy (mpg):
2009 Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 26
2009 Toyota Yaris: 32
Fuel Consumption (gallons per 100 miles):
2009 Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 3.85
2009 Toyota Yaris: 3.12
Emissions (grams/mile):
Highlander/Yaris
NOx: 0.03 / 0.07
CO: 2.1 / 4.2
NMOG: 0.055 / 0.09
PM: 0.01 / 0.01
Smog-forming Pollution (pounds per year): 2.81 / 5.29
Greenhouse Gases Emitted (tons per year): 7.07 / 5.75
So the Ontario Government believes that having a higher gasoline consuming vehicle and more greenhouse polluting vehicle is better to have on the road and give special treatment to, that those vehicles that are actually better than Hybrids.
Hybrid and electric are only technologies that are tools to reach an end goal. However, if a non-hybrid or non-electric vehicle can meet the same goal, then why should it be discriminated against?
This is another example of our government not thinking things through logically. - inactive, on 07/16/2009, -3/+10Great post Salmonz. I did the exact same thing you did. When one crunches the numbers the advantages of owning a hybrid simply collapse. My wife is in the auto industry and when one looks at the efficiency and cost of a standard Ford Edge, Fusion or Escape vs the hybrid versions it simply does not pay. Just talk to someone who actually has to repair a hybrid. The cost is stunning. So what Ontario is doing is subsidizing a loser vehicle.
- scarlettletter, on 07/15/2009, -3/+10If they were to do that is Seattle they would go broke with all the environmentally sound people here!
- oxymoron69, on 07/16/2009, -0/+6A lot more than Niagara Falls my friend, there's lots of hydro dams here in eastern ontario.
- oderdigg, on 07/16/2009, -0/+5As others have said, it's to offset the costs that are noticeably higher on a hybrid/electric vehicle. Your Yaris, although great on gas, still uses gas/oil so it's using technology that's over 100 years old.
I love the idea. Once enough people start buying more Hybrids/EV's, the price will come down and we all win. - altgeeky1, on 07/16/2009, -0/+5National conservation = patriotism.
- sleppanen, on 07/15/2009, -0/+5Sounds great, but where will I be able to pickup an EV here in Ontario
- freezerburn666, on 07/16/2009, -1/+5-7... pretty much the entire winter.. probably some fall, early spring time..
- paxmeow, on 07/15/2009, -5/+9If only California weren't about to declare bankruptcy, maybe we could do the same...
- Dissonance, on 07/16/2009, -0/+4Meanwhile, commodity futures analysts anticipate an engineered price drop in oil between 2010-2011.
- swazo, on 07/16/2009, -0/+4haha that was perfect. i hear this like 20 times a day watching ctv.
- inactive, on 07/16/2009, -2/+6not so great for the people in the chinese battery factories though.
- somnus, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3Girly car!
- Anon5, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3I did some back of the envelope calculations for the Chevrolet Volt in particular, and found that, if it receives the full subsidy, it would begin to approach competitiveness with standard gasoline powered cars; for the purposes of these calculations, I used a 2009 Toyota Corolla as a benchmark.
Ontario off-peak electricity price: 4.3 cents / kwh (http://www.oeb.gov.on.ca/OEB/For+Consumers/Underst ... )
Volt's battery capacity: 16 kwh, 8.8 kwh effective capacity (http://www.eetasia.com/ARTP_8800573298_765245.HTM )
8.8 kwh * 4.3 cents = 37.84 cents for 64 km
37.84 / 64 = 0.59125 cents per km (round up to 0.6 cents for calculation purposes)
Compare with gasoline at an assumed average of $1/L over the lifetime of ownership (very debatable), and a quoted "typical" driving fuel economy of 7.2 L per 100 KM (http://hubpages.com/hub/MPG-Of-11-250-Cars-In-6-Re ... ):
7.2/100 = 0.072 litres per km
= 7.2 cents per km (gasoline) versus 0.6 cents (electric)
Assuming 250,000 km vehicle lifetime:
Cost of gasoline for 2009 Corolla: ($0.072 * 250,000 = ) $18,000
Cost of gasoline for Volt (assuming 0 gasoline use) ($0.006 * 250,000 = ): $1,500
Cost of energy saved (over 250,000 km): $16,500
$34,000* for Volt vs $14,565** for 2009 Corolla (both new, base model)
Cost paid for Volt (car and energy) over lifetime: $35,500
Cost paid for Corolla (car and energy) over lifetime: $32,565
Price difference in favor of Corolla: $2,935
*=(An Estimate: $40,000 USD [expected price] * 1.1 [currency exchange rate] - $10,000 [ON subsidy] = $34,000 CDN)
**= http://www.canadiandriver.com/news_2008/02/18/0802 ...
Assumes:
250,000 km vehicle lifetime
Volt never uses any non-trivial amount of gasoline over lifetime
No energy is lost in storage/keeping battery at temperature
Gas prices average $1/L over lifetime of vehicle
Electricity prices stay the same over lifetime of vehicle
Exchange rate of 1.1 CDN = 1.0 USD at purchase
Maximum subsidy for Chevrolet Volt
Does not factor in cost of maintenance, insurance for either alternative
Conclusion: _If energy costs stay the same_, then even with the subsidy, you're paying for the cost of the gas up front with the Volt, making installment payments on Volt uneconomical (if ignoring tax deductibility factors). The economic viability of the Volt comes down to whether gas prices spike in the ownership period. If they spike, then the Volt is a genuine money saver, but if not, one is better off with a Corolla. Therefore, if buying a Volt, buy it for the prestige factor, not for the economic factor (cost of prestige = paying all fuel costs up front + $2,935). However, if the purchase of an electric car is deferred several years, then economies of scale should make electric cars economically viable - this subsidy just pushes the process ahead by a few years, which is still significant in that it is now helping the electric car _begin to be_ an economically viable alternative.
I think that's all the factors - did I miss anything? - Goatfacekilla, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3perhaps you don't realize that the terminator tried to raise taxes but can't do it since in the 80's your damn state passed a law require a majority vote to pass to allow and increase in taxes and you shot it down so now his hands are tied and the ship is sinking(metaphorically) so the money has got to come from somewhere and he can cut health care without your permission so he will to stop california from sliding into a greater deficit.
- freezerburn666, on 07/16/2009, -1/+4they want to be the forefront for the manufacturing.. to create jobs.... and cleaner vehicles.
- drallo, on 07/16/2009, -3/+6I think you're missing the point. (also, why would you compare a subcompact with a hybrid SUV? that isn't helping your point)
Fuel economy is a secondary benefit of hybrids.
This is a strategy to help bring the cost of EV technology down through expanded hybrid production.
Your Yaris has impressive fuel economy by internal combustion standards; but compared to an electric vehicle powered (largely) by relatively green hydro/nuclear sources in Ontario, its like driving a tank. - bakedkg, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3eh?
- mdp8889, on 07/16/2009, -2/+5Yeah, time to buy a plane ticket. Get paid to live the lifestyle I want to live.
- Swivelstick, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3California tried to do it years ago, remember what happened?
- Swivelstick, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3Brainwashed? Who's been brainwashed by the corporations pushing the hydrogen bandwagon for the past 2 decades.
- mksmothers, on 07/16/2009, -1/+4in other news, the average price of hybids in Canada set to rise $4 - $10,000.
- TexMexRex, on 07/16/2009, -1/+4No dumber idea than hybrids. Most drivers get the same or worse mialage.
No better idea than plug-in hybrids. Actually a dual electric/gas car would be just fine. Could have been done 30 years ago. - tgc1, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3Yeah during PEAK consumption periods. Ie. During the day.
So charge up at night. - Aleut, on 07/16/2009, -1/+4"Ontario Paying $10,000 in Incentives for Plug-In Hybrids"
First 10,000 plug-in hybrid buyers get a $1 rebate! Woohoo! - TexMexRex, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3Keep voting for new social services and voteing down taxes. That's bound to work.
- Valleye, on 07/16/2009, -0/+3Sorry, I needed to over-simplify it for one504, I am sure you understand.
- LupeFiasco, on 07/16/2009, -0/+2According to the Tesla site, you can buy their cars. They are pricey, but look real nice.
- Mike17102, on 07/16/2009, -2/+4Would go? CA is already broke, thanks in part to idiotic handouts like this.
- digitaltodd, on 07/16/2009, -0/+2sadly the government will just claw that incentive money back at tax time... just like they did when the offered incentives like this for making your home more energy efficient.
- brianpeiris, on 07/16/2009, -1/+3Yeah, never mind the environment and the fact that this will help reduce our reliance on fossil fuels.
Did you know that some of your taxes go towards funding schools that you don't attend! Thieving bastards!
/sarcasm - meaghangray, on 07/16/2009, -0/+2i know the lowest we normally get in my area is -20 celcius on the worst days. further north it gets a lot colder though. i don't know what this is in fahrenheit.
- LowROI, on 07/16/2009, -3/+5Guess where Ontario is...
- Goatfacekilla, on 07/16/2009, -1/+3they are actually updating two of the reactors at the bruce nuclear plant to make it the highest producing and cleanest nuclear reactor in the world with two brand new can-do reactors and the province of alberta is building a nuclear power plant with 8 can-do reactors that will power 85% of western canada.
so hippies or not... you don't know what you are talking about - Mike17102, on 07/16/2009, -3/+5Thats right, piss tax money into something that isnt viable without it.
- AmazingSteve, on 07/16/2009, -0/+2Spoken like a true conservative.
- jayomatic, on 07/16/2009, -0/+2Last time I checked there were no commercially available plug-in or electric vehicles for sale. The Prius requires additional modification to become a plug-in hybrid.
Something is really fishy about it all. I wonder how many vehicles will be available before the incentive runs out.... - mikevsshark, on 07/16/2009, -0/+2Yeah, I know. I'm aware and supportive of the fact that California endorses renewable energy sources.
- inactive, on 07/16/2009, -0/+21: I should be subsidised to not drive at all. that helps the environment even more.
2: education is mandatory, and helps prepare people for a lifetime of government servitude..um i mean productive members of society. driving is NOT mandatory or a right. if they want to make people buy electric cars, then they should put a tax on gas guzzlers. -
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