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- noxsomnia, on 10/11/2007, -4/+144Welcome to the present. It's a failure on Neilsen's part to not have recognized this trend in the pipelines and addressed it. Broadcasters have taken very weak steps towards resolving this by posting episodes on their websites so they can get numbers there, but most people aren't willing to sit in front of their computer screens to watch the content unless they are devoted. Blaming the DVR is just a cop-out.
Joost seems positioned to be a pretty good solution to this problem, if they can build relationships with manufacturers to get the content available to DVR users as well as broadcasters supplying the content. - jcrash, on 10/11/2007, -2/+69Tell the Nielsen families. The rest of us don't count.
- thatsmyaibo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+59Lame excuse. Tivo changes the channel when your program is on and broadcasts it on said channel. Just because your TV isn't on, doesn't mean the show won't get it's viewership.
- MercedRocks, on 10/11/2007, -1/+56Yep, who wants to hassle with having to meet at specific time and place each and every week? Its insane.
By promoting DVR use they could actually gain more viewers who could have the flexibility to watch more shows at their convenience. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+42I'm so amused, I DVR everything I usually watch. Not to mention I hate commercials. This delivery method just doesn't work for a majority of Diggers. We're tech-savvy and DVR, download or stream our content. The industry needs to really rework advertising construct, or they will just end up being left behind,
- Cwo655321, on 10/11/2007, -5/+42well if thats what it takes... it was nice to get at least 7 more eps; you aint gettin my tivo
- jblade, on 10/11/2007, -2/+37which is why product placement / commercials "within" the tv show is going to be the next era of commercials.
- VodkaAvenger, on 10/11/2007, -3/+35Perhaps if the broadcasters were smarter about their revenue and advertising model, DVR wouldn't be a problem.
- geekee, on 10/11/2007, -1/+23"It's a failure on Neilsen's part to not have recognized this trend in the pipelines and addressed it."
"Maybe a simpler soultion would be to change the way shows are rated and include internet and Tivo.. But thats just me.."
If Nielson reported you DVRed your show and skipped all the commercials, I don't think that helps your cause. The advertisers would see that as the same as not having watched it. - prisoner24601, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10@ zaibatsu
"I DVR everything I usually watch."
I'm the same way, and I have one of the early ReplayTV units with a "30-second skip" button, so it's easy to get through commercials quickly (I understand the TiVo's FF button is a lot less precise.)
But what's interesting to me is how OFTEN I still watch a commercial. Of course it is a much lower percentage than it was, but I'm honestly surprised that pretty much every day I find myself "jumping back" because I catch a glimpse of some visual element. Something made me think "huh, what was that?" and them I'm watching 30 seconds of "Messin' With Sasquatch" or finding out why the guy in the garage has Spiderman hanging upside down over his car etc.
The point here is that if a commercial is actually well done, there's a decent chance that when even us DVR owners are "skipping" we will see quick image that will make us take a quick look.
Of course I'm going to skip 100% of the Cialis commercials 100% of the time. And no minivan will ever make me "back up" but I'm not the target market for those guys anyway so its a "no loss there" issue. I was never going to buy what they were selling, so who cares anyway?
But when I see some farmer's tractor blown up when he turns the ignition key, you bet I'm going to take a look and find out "hey, A&E is putting the Sopranos on." CBS should be telling advertisers: "look, if your commercials are pathetic, no one will ever see them. Welcome to the modern world, there's only one thing you can do, which is actually make an interesting commercial. Your target market WILL look at that. All we can do is bring them in the door with a show like Jericho. If your crummy commercial drives them away (makes them hit FF) then that's your fault, not ours." - TeatimeGrommit, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12It's really a stupid thing for them to ask. The studios only know what you are watching if you agreed to have one of those mommy boxes that tracks your TV and reports back. That's what the Nielsen rating system is all about. There's 1 Nielsen box for every so many thousand households. If you have one of these boxes, you know who you are and you know not to DVR a show you love. If you are not, then just do what you like.
- zombiedictator, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10First and foremost, the Nielsen rating system is a horrible way to extrapolate data. What is it, 5,000 boxes? 300,000,000+ potential viewers? It's just not a good way to get accurate data.
Secondly, it isn't the job for consumer needs to adapt to a broken system, it's for the system to adapt to consumer needs. Commercials are an outdated way to advertise. I saw Ocean's 13 this weekend and one of the big in-movie promotions was for some ultra high-end Samsung cell phone that the main villain coveted. I'm sure more people noticed that phone than people would notice 50 commercial spots for Samsung on prime time.
And finally, we brought your show back from oblivion, and now you're going to tell us how to watch it? Jesus Christ, you should be thanking us for letting you keep your jobs. It's like demanding a raise after a huge layoff; just a bad idea any way you look at it. - HouseofEl, on 10/11/2007, -0/+9Uh...this is coming on the heals of when they said that they will have to look at the show in a different business model because people were DVRing the show. So I guess they just got lazy and are going back to just telling us to watch when it's on? Regardless, I don't like being told how to watch something.
- numb, on 10/11/2007, -2/+11"Blaming the DVR is just a cop-out."
I used to download Jericho, in fact that's how I got interested in it. Then they started offering it on-demand with short commercials and I stopped downloading it because the commercials were reasonable on-demand. As long as they keep offering it on-demand in the same format I'm all over it. When I have to watch 18 minutes of commercials to see 42 minutes then it's just not worth my time. If they can they can figure out a way to force me to watch 18 minutes of commercials to see the show then they'll have figured out how to make me stop watching altogether. - joeydoo, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8.... then everyone stops watching tv because of the ***** annoying banner ads flying across the bottom of the screen...
- thatsmyaibo, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9He's right. The TiVo changes the channel as you would with a remote. The ratings don't change whether you TiVo it or watch it live. It still tunes it.
- nathanwalker, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8@MercedRocks
Exactly! This is the new tech that everyone wants and loves, yet the networks are saying it is hurting them? Well, they just need to figure out how to use it right. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -3/+10You'd really prefer product placement? I can see it used in some scenarios, but personally I'd rather have commercials. Product placement just messes with the integrity of the show. What if on Lost instead of having Dharma Initiative beer they had Budweiser. Or on BSG Starbuck and Boomer have a talk about how great Massengil is for those not so fresh moments.
- willdaddy, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8When hooked to a DVR, the ratings device monitors what you watch. Not what you record. It does this by matching the video on the screen to the audio on your speakers. This is measured on the outputs of the DVR. Not rocket science. Think about it. It doesn't matter if you TiVo it or not, and it doesn't matter if you skip commercials. Its all about what's on the screen. With that said, there are date stamps on the broadcasts, so if a show relies heavily on advertising that is time sensitive than watching a TiVo'd program not be good in the advertiser's view.
- superrcat, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Nielsen begins monitoring TiVo usage
August 6, 2002
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-948580.html
Nielsen to include TiVo viewers in ratings
Dec 28, 2005
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_20051228/ai_n15959501 - thewebguy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7lies: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/01/1626245&from=rss
- insomniac8400, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6Unless you have a Nielsen box, why would it matter if you watch it online? And why can't they get a count of how many times it was watched online? Whatever they use to broadcast it most definitely keeps count.
- Reaperducer, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9It's not about advertisers, it's about measuring the number of people watching. Currently there is no industry-accepted technology to tally what DVR viewers are watching. Once they can be counted, the broadcasters won't care how many shows you DVR, just as long as you watch. They might eventually even put great stuff on in the middle of the night just to get it into DVRs so it can be watched later. This would help them better utilize low-revenue periods of the day (remember, TV is nothing more than a data stream now). But the counting problem has to be solved first.
- strafefire, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10Just a question...
CBS wants everybody to watch Jericho live so that way they can show us commercials.
What is the difference between this, and click fraud? - reparsed, on 10/11/2007, -2/+8Why don't they resell some of those peanuts to offset their ad revenue?
- bpmox, on 10/11/2007, -0/+5"If you have one of these boxes, you know who you are and you know not to DVR a show you love."
But wouldn't DVR'ing it report back as ratings of having watched it? The Nielson box doesn't know the difference. - nathanwalker, on 10/11/2007, -7/+12No, you will get dugg down by intelligent people that actually pay attention to tech and media and see that DVR is not being embraced by the major networks, yet it is being used more and more because of the convenience.
- leontes, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6I used to download rather than watch ST: Enterprise and wonderfalls rather than going into the living room, turning on the people meter and watching the show. Sorry for that, guys. I represented a ***** load of people and yet convenience won out; I feel that it's always going to be like that. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if the people who like this show are also those that have the urge and know how to skip 'sponser messages'. Perhaps the networks should find other sources of revenue: like product placement or subscription to dvd content as the show is going on.
- HUKI365, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5How would you rework it?
There are four advertising options:
Pre and Post Roll: Doesn't work, peopel switch off, so you lose eyes on adertising, and the chance they'll stay for the next program.
Mid-Program: It has worked for the last fifty years. DVR's are the same as people VHS or DVD recording programs and then watching them back.
Subtitle: I hate those. the little graphics that pop up and advertise stuff. Not worth it, just pisses me off.
Intergrated: Is really annoying (Sony in Casion Royale, for example) and not worth it when you have many different and varied advertisers and different regions in which the program will be broadcast. However, Hiro's car in Heroes is a good example of this.
So Mid-Program is the only one that really works. The problem is that DVR users fast forward. But that's not really the problem, because ratings aren't gauge by DVR users! - vinividivici, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5CBS is full of crap. Putting Jericho up against American Idol is why its ratings are bad. If they really believe in the show, they should put it in a more favorable timeslot.
- lifeofthunder, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4No.
This totally destroys any attempted element of cinematography.
TV programming is bad enough looking as it is. - D3koy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4That's where I wonder about us DVR'ing it, if we don't have a Nielsen box how can we hurt the ratings by recording it?
- VinSomething, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4@kilofox
You're right, however, I pay $65 per month to DirecTV for television access (including $10 for receivers, $5 for TiVo) to all the channels in my selected package. Remember when cable channels did not have any commercials at all? What differentiates ABC/NBC/CBS/Fox for the majority of Americans who pay for television delivery?
How much and to how many people do I need to pay to watch TV on my own terms? I understand television production isn't free, but there are issues on both sides of the aisle. I'd happily ditch the dish and pay a reasonable fee to the respective companies (be it per show, per channel, etc.) as long as I don't spend any more each month than what I'm spending now. I also don't want to be restricted in where, when, or how I watch.
It's going to take a major overhaul of TV as we know it. - Mesach, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4The answer is simple, Nielsen boxes need to come up with a DVR system, and also record when the show is watched, that will give a decent cross section on what time is convenient for families to watch shows.
DO NOT BLAME THE TECHNOLOGY... Embrace it and use it to your advantages... Stupid studio execs.
Took them long enough to discover the secret "summer" season, thats when they need to be debuting things, not in the middle of a hot new show's first season, thus loosing 1/2 of the viewership or more. - judsond, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4You can't, don't trust CBS.
- stack3r, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Networks should just face the real fact, PEOPLE DONT WANT ADVERTISING ANYMORE, WE ARE ALL FED UP WITH IT, FIND ANOTHER WAY TO MAKE MONEY.
- gmillerd, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4They should follow up with ... "Please remove our show and all our actors and directors from your wishlists, don't indicate you at all are interested in our show, delete it from your history list now."
.... maybe adding a ... "If your unable to watch our show during its time slot, please ask CBS to move it, but under no circumstances record our show."
... I imagine many shows after people miss a few episodes those people are very hard to get back into the show. I know when my class schedule changed I dropped out of the x-files until it went into syndication. - lavoie0ca, on 10/11/2007, -5/+8I would way rather have product placement than a billion ad breaks.
they dont seem to get that they can't just keep adding more and more commercials. - kickcows, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3no one can go against the American Idol juggernaut. i mean, who are they kidding?!
- fantasticFlan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+4You'll also get dugg down for preemptively insulting and complaining about getting dugg down.
- trer, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3It's time for Nielsen and all the other networks to get with the times and realize that this isn't the 1950s where everyone gathered in front of the TV after dinner. We're people who are on the go and don't like to have our lives dictated by what time a TV show is. Hence, that is why we spend money on technology that lets us do what we want when we want and also keep up with TV that we like. Since Nielsen is obviously not getting accurate ratings, they need to get modern.
- Otto, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Clue time:
-Most Neilsen households still use the diary system. You write down what it is you watch and then send it to them every week.
-The "people meter" things give instant ratings, but only something like 10% of Neilsen households have them, and they are only used to give the "instant" ratings, which even Neilsen says are wildly inaccurate.
-Tivo keeps track of what everybody watches (unless you opt out of the anonymous data gathering). If somebody wanted extremely accurate Tivo ratings numbers, all they have to do is to ask Tivo (and buck up, of course). - unoriginalsin, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3@tomfraser2lol
"How the ***** will they know wether or not it is being DVRed?"
http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-tco/top25.do?show25=seasonpass
Gee, I don't know. How the ***** will they know. - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Screw your advertisements. I refuse to give up 20 minutes per hour of tv viewing just to watch mindless commercials.
/love my Tivo - beatphats, on 10/11/2007, -2/+5Co-signage...
Neilsen sucks because it can't be an accurate measure of the shows success anymore. All the networks have to do is visit EZTV and see which shows are downloaded the most, and I'll guarantee you those are the most successful. - dremeda, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Viva Jericho! Down with New Bern!!!
- KUKBAHLAM, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3Please also refrain from going to the bathroom, stepping outside for a smoke or heading to the kitchen. This also hurts the advertisers.
Also, refrain from suggesting any changes to the Nielsen ratings system. It is a well established monopoly with a vise like grip on the TV industries' testicles.
Tivo isn't new... We have had VCRs for a while. Why start complaining about FF'ing through commercials now?
Lack of any real thought in the article reaffirms my belief that Ars Technica has become a stealth marketing firm. - fnaqzna, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3@HUKI365
How would you rework it?
How about discard the model completely? The reason I prefer subscription television over commercial television is simple. With subscription television, I am the consumer. With network commercial television, I am not. With commercial television, I am the product.
I predict that the networks will fail under their own weight. Of course... this will come years after they try to legislate survival into their business model. And if the music industry is any example, they'll also find that their model will continue its downward spiral.
HBO and Showtime will pay for a series. You need look no further than shows like Sopranos or Six Feet Under... and strangely enough there are few if any network television shows that surpass the quality. - smacksaw, on 10/11/2007, -0/+3#1. Don't let the facts get in the way of an opinion, as evidenced by this article. That TiVo smack is *****.
#2. I don't see why networks can't have boutique shows that appeal to a niche audience. So WHAT if you go up against American Idol? Good! That's where you should put special interest shows. All it needs to do is get decent ratings and have a reasonable budget that reflects the ratings. If it lasts a year or two, you have DVD sales. Get it up to 5 and you have syndication.
Of course that all makes perfect sense which is why I could never be a TV executive. I'm not a ***** retard. -
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