What is Digg?182 Comments
- redomin8, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27Whoa! The argument actually made sense, very insightful!
- jwhicks727, on 10/12/2007, -1/+23I totally agree. I don't think the article criticizes hybrid technology at all; a hybrid SUV is still better than a regular SUV for someone who needs an SUV. Rather, the article is criticizing blind acceptance of the technology as "green" rather than fuel usage reduction in general. Heaven forbid we should actually consider not using our cars!
- aplusplus, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24The large, bolded "Opinion" text on the top of the page didn't give you the hint?
- triska, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16This article describes exactly what happened with my cousin's prius. She bought it, fell in love with it, and is paying more for gas than she did with her 4 year old hyundai. She doesn't do the "right" kind of driving that suits a prius, so it's ending up costlier.
It's like everything, you buy something for the purpose it was built for and it'll do well. Take it outside that realm and you're in unknown territory. Yes, that's where hackers love to play and create new & wonderful things, but it's not for people who just want to get to work and back cheaply. - kaz928, on 10/12/2007, -8/+21It's about time someone had the cojones to put out an article like this.
- KilgoreCarp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12"Is this digg population really this uninformed or is this another case of "the headline looks interesting, I'll digg it" ?"
To me this article was interesting because of its discussion of tax breaks and pending and potential legislation offering incentives for hybrids WITHOUT respect to oil consumption. The article did not simply state that hybrid SUVs get lower gas milage but talked about how those buying responsible small cars may get screwed and car manufactures may use the hybrid trend to lobby for unwarranted gov't support. It isn't inherently obvious, by the way, that due to your driving habits and battery disposal, a good old fashioned (cheaper) small car may offer you and the environment greater benefits versus a hybrid with slightly better sticker milage. Granted this was an op ed piece and not any new research or anything groundbreaking, I still found it to be insightful. Digg. - jj00, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13From hybridcars.com:
The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.
Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.
There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
Another article from Business Week (notice the mention about liberals):
http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/jan2006/bw20060131_870391.htm - alky, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12The best point he makes is tax incentives for hybrid SUVs, which aren't as fuel efficient as small gas cars and how offering incentives might make SUV more appealing...
The obivous message is to tell your representative to base incentives on gas mileage, not on being a hybrid! That's exactly how it should be done! I mean, assuming the buraucracy created from trying to ensure cars actually get the claimed mileage doesn't swallow us all. - rebrad, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12The real cost of a hybrid comes not only when you buy the car but also when you have to dispose of the batteries. That is what will kill the hybrid because most don't think of that and the salesman won't tell you.
- jav1231, on 10/12/2007, -13/+21Really? And yet hippie-libs everywhere are telling us that we're evil for driving SUV's and not this wonderful cure-all cars that will make us all wanna hug.
It would be interesting to see if there's a HWY/City mileage sticker on the car at the dealer. 14HWY/45City would be weird to see. - hexix, on 10/12/2007, -10/+18Here's the summary of this article:
1.) Very small cars can often be more fuel efficient than a large hybrid SUV (no ***** sherlock)
2.) There are environmental factors to think of when disposing of a hybrid car (due to the battery and probably some other components)
3.) Due to the way hybrids work, you lose the benefit if you do a lot of highway driving (anyone who has read anything on hybrids should already know this, that's just how they work).
Is this digg population really this uninformed or is this another case of "the headline looks interesting, I'll digg it" ? - myxyplik, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Motorcycles are not always the most practical solution. At least part of that has to do with geography. You wouldn't want to be driving a motorcycle in, say, the northern US during the winter.
- AeonTorpor, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9@shiptoshore
You know there is a major problem w/ the perspectives on Hydrogen fuel in this country. As mentioned, Nuclear power is a much cleaner way (barring the waste which btw CAN be disposed of properly).
But to far surpass that, Solar energy is the way to go. Solar panels, Solar towers (heat chimney thing), and Solar reflector dishes. They can all be used to generate electricity, and strait from electricity through electrolysis, hydrogen.
TADA! Now there's plenty of hydrogen and oxygen, in perfect molarity for fuel cells. But do we hear about that? No, all we hear about is "difficulties" "innefficiencies" "dependancies".
P.S . Whats with the digg spell checker? Its only giving an error - bsane, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9The real problem with most hybrids, which the author continues to gloss over, is that they're not really 'dual power source'!!
They have one power source: gasoline.
They don't have the capability of being electrically charged when at home or work. The ONLY thing that matters on these cars is MPG- since there really just gas burners. - theblooms, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7The only way to really save in fossil fuel energy is to build nuclear power plants to provide power for distilling EtOH and making H2 for fuel cells. Other than that, EVERYTHING else runs off of fossil fuels in one form or another, including those precious batteries in your useless hippie-mobiles.
How do you thing those batteries get made? Coal and Natural gas fueled power plants, my friend.
Want to REALLY save the environment? Buy a Specialized or Trek and take that to work! - blahbbs, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I think what hexix and some others seem to be missing in their summarization of the article is the larger point that the author was trying to make, and that is that the government is about to make a mistake in how it provides incentives for hybrids. The government is rewarding hybrid technology, instead of rewarding fuel efficiency. The author is posing the question, "Does it really make sense to provide incentives for something that really doesn't result in a reduction in oil use?"
- green67, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@triska...agreed..I live in Marin County and sooooo many people are buying the Prius so they can comute to work by them selves in the "comute lane", only to discover they're in the same predicament(no bonus millage).It's kind of a fashion statement as well for some of them.Honest information is needed and less hype to sell a new product just because it's the "in" thing.digg
- Zlobadon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Certainly the issue also includes 'the environment' that we're screwing, however you seem to be misled by how things work in a free market -- individuals do (and always will) make decisions based upon their own best interests. Until there is a combination of results and cost-efficiency, it is a poor choice for someone to forego their current transportation to run out and buy a hybrid vehicle.
The fact that the government provides incentives just serves to emphasize this, yet despite the incentives it is still a poor economic choice, and based upon this article [and many others] it still does little to help the environment due to the lackluster reduction of dependency on the black gooey stuff.
In all probability, you would help the environment more by picking up non-biodegradable trash and dispose of it properly whenever you find it in the environment. (As I have done in each of the dozens of national parks that I've been privileged enough to visit--all in my Explorer.) :)
I certainly hope the technology evolves much further, and I definitely will consider purchasing an alternative to traditional gas engine based vehicles in 5-10 years when my current ride needs replacement (Heck, I'm only at 150,000 miles). The point is there's a lot of work that must be done between now and then for it to be a viable option, and it currently is not what it was hyped up to be. - TheReport, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I bet even if this wasnt an opinion piece and was all cold hard facts that digg users would still be in an uproar about this.
- HappyScrappy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4oneoffmanmental:
The US market is not "filling up" with 4L hybrids. We don't have a single one yet. The first one I believe will be the Lexus LS600h.
The Ford Escape in this article has about a 3L engine, and the RX400h mentioned has 3.3L.
Besides, I think you're off track here too. Look at the Corvette with its 6.0L dispacement motor and it gets 18/28mpg (that's 35mpg in Imperial gallons). And it doesn't even have the capability to shut off cylinders under light loads. Compare this to the Honda S2000, which gets 20/25 (32mpg imperial). The S2000 makes just over half the power and has 1/3rd the displacement!
The problem isn't just displacement, it doesn't even seem to be mostly displacement. The problem, especially in the case of SUVs, is the weight and size. The big box shape makes more drag. And the weight means it takes more energy to accelerate, only to lose it into the brakes when you stop. A hybrid can reduce the latter effect, although regenerative braking is not even close to 100% effective.
In Europe, a Golf is considered a decent-sized car. Many Ford Focuses are sold to families. The Accord is a different car than in the US, in Europe it is built on the same platform as the Acura TSX, while the US version is built on the same platform as the TL. Even luxury car buyers don't automatically go up in size. There are several small luxury cars (even BMW makes one) and you cna get luxury spec on even normal small cars (again, the Focus). In the US, to get this level of amenities, you are forced into a larger car.
So, even when not buying monster trucks, Americans buy bigger cars than Europeans. And no matter what the displacement of the motor, those larger cars are going to have trouble getting the same mileage as the smaller cars in Europe.
Yeah, I view hybrids as a scam. The prius uses being hybrid as a trick to be able to sell a *****-slow car with a tiny motor and efficient high pressure tires. Americans need to knuckle under and not buy a 1-ton truck with dualies just to put a toolbox in the back and also not buy a super performance sedan with super fat, sticky tires just to merge on the expressway.
It burns me up when see Geo Metro XFIs around. They get 58mpg highway (73mpg Imperial) and yet unlike a hybrid, there's no tax credit for buying one. And unlike a prius or civic hybrid, you cannot drive solo in the carpool line in one. All this despite the XFI being better for the environment, especially when it comes time to scrap it. On the highway, all that hybrid stuff is just dead weight and yet prius buyers are rewarded for buying it.
Lame.
We should have a people miles per gallon (pmpg) requirement for the carpool lane if we want to make it an eco-friendly lane (although I always thought it was a congestion-reducing lane). Put two people in a BMW M5 and you don't get in the carpool lane. Put one in a Metro XFI, and you're in. In a Ford Excursion you'd have to have 6. Having 6 people in an Excursion actually makes it a decent vehicle, environmentally. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4What about hacked hybrids
they get like 200mph and plug in at night. - beoswulf, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Here in the North East there is a gas station chain called Hess. They tend to be a few pennies more pg but it's worth it. They don't get anything from the Middle East except for employees. All their gas originated somewhere else in the world. It makes me feel a little better since I'm on the road a lot.
It is the same with the gas chains Sinclair and Sunoco.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/hess.asp - MoonDogAFO, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7FROM THE PIECE: "On a cross-country excursion in a Prius, the staff of Automobile Magazine discovered mileage plummeted on the Interstate. In fact, the car's computer, which controls the engine and the motor, allowing them to run together or separately, was programmed to direct the Prius to spend most of its highway time running on gasoline because at higher speeds the batteries quickly get exhausted. Indeed, the gasoline engine worked so hard that we calculated we might have used less fuel on our journey if we had been driving Toyota's conventionally powered, similarly sized Corolla — which costs thousands less. For the owner who does the majority of her driving on the highway, the Prius's potential for fuel economy will never be realized and its price premium never recovered."
OK, I own a Prius. My around the city driving usually nets me around 42-45 MPG. My highway driving (I work in another state 30 min drive one way) EASILY nets me in the warm months somewhere around 50-51 MPG. And that is hitting speeds around 75 MPH.
Last year, I took a trip from my house to Charleston, South Carolina - which has many mountain climbs/descents on the way - and back, and got 53 MPG. That's MORE than I get in my city or local highway driving!
So, what the hell am I doing differently from this "professional", as well as the other groups/individuals who are naysaying the Prius? I suspect it has something to do with the relative "flatness" of your driving area, coupled with an alteration of how you statrt, stop, brake, etc. Either that or I received the only Prius that does remotely what it was advertised to do! - themajor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@nugget
"I don't know the entire process of how to seperate it from water"
The simplest way is probably the way you saw the guy do it, which was most likely electrolosis, which is a good way of doing it, except for the fact that you need the electricity to begin with. The best way to get it presently, (and this surprised me too) was from ethanol, which itself can be used as a fuel source, but isn't as easy to refine as gasoline is. (see rebrad) so to be efficient, you could use elecrolysis, which simply splits the water into hydrogen and oxygen, but where is the electricity coming from? You could use solar, but there is a lot of land area involvled with that and a dependency on nice weather (to produce the most electricity) So solar would be possible, but maybe not the best way. You could use electricity from nuclear plants which wouldn't take much space and it would also provide plenty of power. But, if you already had the electricity, why wouldn't you use electric cars? The extra step of electricity to hydrogen to electricity seems a bit superfluous. I'm not claiming to be an expert on the subject, nor am I claiming to have all the answers, but I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents with a little common sense. - u3b3rg33k, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think diesel cars should be more common. Modern diesel vehicles have minimal emmissions (at least compared to those from the 1980s) and you can average 45 mpg in a diesel jetta.
(average 30% higher fuel economy for a diesel of the same size as a gasoline engine due to the increased compression ratio). - weiran, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Weight and your driving style. I'm sure revving to the 7K limit on every gear isn't very nice to the enviroment :).
- aembleton, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This is even more true in the UK, and most probably across Europe. I know people who want to purchase a Hybrid, simply because it is 'seen as green'. You get similar MPG from a diesel, and if you drive much on the motorway (highway) you would almost certainly be better off with a diesel vehicle.
When the diesel hybrid comes out, then things might start to change, but for now they're something of a gimmick for motorway driving.
Great article, I dugg it. - leeg, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4The best part of diesel technology is any diesel engine can run on fuel created from plant oils (bio-diesel) with no modification. In fact the diesel engine was orignally designed to run on vegatable oil.
When running dino-diesel modern diesels have 25% lower CO2 emissions (greenhouse gas) than an average gasoline powered car. Plus the emission levels from diesel engines tend to remain more-or-less constant throughout the useful life of the engine, whereas gasoline engines have many more emission-related components which deteriorate and lead to higher and higher emissions as the engine gets older.
It's a win-win, particularly when running on bio-diesel. - tony23, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@nugget -
So you get car AND a motorcycle. Take the motorcycle to work for the vast majority of your day-to-day driving, take the car when you're taking the family somewhere.
It still saves money on gas and cuts overall emissions. - ElBruelsio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@ powercow
"yeah i call bs... most people do 90% of their driving in a city."
Think about the major cities of the US. The 90% of people you speak of are probably doing 90% of their driving to and from work everyday. And where does a huge portion of this driving take place? On the interstate. Now I know what you're thinking. You would say that that type of driving is stop and go and the electic engine would be beneficial. However, I would argue that a small portion of anyone's trip is stop and go. During the majority of my driving around the cities I'm nearly always going a constant speed, whether it's at 70 mph or 40 mph during rush-hour. So I call bs on your bs. - MrHighSide, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9Get yourslef a $3000 new Kawasaki 250 Ninja, and look cool while getting 78 mpg (Cycle World). Plus there is the wheelies...
- nugget, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4plus the fact that if you have a family or you want to take a few friends somewhere your a little limited by the size.
- shaun944, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4what "right" kind of driving? I'm sorry but I've seen nothing but misleading articles from most of the auto mags in regards to understating hybrid performance. This is just another example. #1 as stated by others, the batteries are fully recycleable, and golly gee shucks, if you send your car to a junkyard, don't you think the junkyard is going to send the battery in for the free $200?
#2 This myth of the "right" way to drive a Prius: IF by "right" you mean travel at the speed limit, then, shouldn't everyone drive their cars the "right" way? Obviously if your the kind of person who floors it from every stop and slams on the breaks before the next stop you're going to get poor gas mileage, but try doing that in any car and watch your mpg vanish, thats just common sense. I own one. When I bought it, I drove from San Fran to OC on the first tank of gas and got 46mpg while going 70-80 most of the way and had the AC on since it was 100F+ in the central valley. I drive to LA all the time and get ~50 mpg on the freeway going 70-75 mph except when traffic prevents it. And I live at the top of a large hill so I'm using the gas motor quite a bit, my avg tank gets me 50 mpg.
#3 some of the prius owners reporting poor mpg might want to check their tire pressure, it has a major effect on efficiency...
last thing, Hydrogen production is nowhere near being free of requiring fossil fuels, biodiesels are great as long as a small minority of people use them and thus keep the demand for the limited supply small, and BTW Hybrids are here to stay, the only thing that will change is the gasoline will be replaced by a fuel cell or hydrogen at some point. The technology of being a "hybrid" is basically using the transfer of kinetic energy/friction from breaking and coasting to recharge batteries - you can do it no matter what the "other" power source is. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3well it still has a gas tank.. it can still use gas now and then.. so i suppose after 200 miles he has to put another gallon in.
- wolphcry, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You look good untell the next rain / hail storm :)
- Nameless1, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Yeah, i can see it now, a hudge junkyard full of battery packs from a few thousand hybrids. yess, very friendly.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Its not just about saving gas. Its about putting out less pollutants.
- hexix, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6rebrad: yeah, because batteries are totally new. Nobody has ever seen a battery before hybrid cars came a long.
Christ, give it a rest. - penneyisok, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6Yesterday morning I seen an interview with a writer at Car and Driver Magazine on cnn about this, and it seems to not be worth the cost of the car. The guy thinks its a big joke, for now at least. He also talked about that Corn Fuel (Ethanol) how even that is a waste. It may be cheaper but it burns a lot faster than gas so it works out to be around the same price.
The real only benfit is that it helps "Save the Enviroment", theres not much savings if at all. - swisswuff, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3These considerations became interesting right when the gas prices started to soar. We currently run a Smart City Coupe (predecessor to the Smart ForTwo, around 60 miles per gallon) and a VW Polo 1.2L (around 50-55 miles per gallon; both cars burn unleaded gas, not diesel). Both provide far more than enough thrust and performance for European urban and freeway traffic, and both were extremely affordable to purchase. Their gas consumption is also low because those are very light cars, and they contain motors that were constructed specifically for an optimal consumption-performance ratio. Insurance and road tax are also at the bottom end due to the small size of the motors.
- dwhitbeck, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5The main factor in fuel economy is weight.
- jamesg1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Its a great idea plugging in these cars at night. There is only one problem with that. Most electricity is generated using gas! We havn't built a nuclear plant in this country since 76, so I say build some nuke plants!!
- fantasticjon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hybrids are not for everyone, but they will be a great mainstream success.
This article has some good points, but I hate the way the media sensationalizes the downside of everything to sell some advertisments give people something to talk about.
It remindes me of the whole Ford rollover fiasco. From all the misleading facts and statistics put out by the media coverage, some people are still convinced that cars are safer than SUVs (Not True.) SUV's are 90% more likely to roll over, but they are still safer than cars overall. - tkerwin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4The point of this article is not that hybrid vehicles are a scam, but that people are tending to oversimplify that hybrid means 'fuel efficient'. Driving a SUV on your way to work every day is going to use a lot of gas, even if it does have a hybrid electric motor in it. Driving a Prius on the highway every day is not going to help either, since its hybrid features are designed for city driving. Making hybrid vehicles isn't enough, the public has to be educated about the choices they make for their purchaces and driving habits. And that's even more difficult than developing new types of cars.
- crosenblum, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I just recentally bought a 2006 Subaru Forrester, and it has 23/28 mpg, which is better than my 1995 Ford Explorer. Reliability is just as important as fuel efficiency.
But i do like this article. - joncannon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Biodiesel, Hydrogen and natural gas powered cars are the future, not Hybrid cars.
- Kitsune818, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Unfortunately, here in the US, the Polo and Lupo are not available. Most of the diesel vehicles in the Eurpoean/UK market are not available here, and if they are, they almost never bring the diesel models. The only real exception to that I can think of is Mercedes Benz and Volkswagen. You can get a Jetta TDI and a New Beetle TDI.. Possibly the Passat although I'm not sure..however diesel fuel can be tough to come across in some areas, which means you have to drive out to the truck stops to fill up.
I think one of the reasons diesel cars are not well though of here is bad previous experiences with poorer designs.. They usually would not start here in the New England winters, and reaked of diesel fumes no matter how careful you were. The newer ones are much better, as I'm sure you know, but people here still equate diesel with "big rig" trucks or towing power.. not economy. - nblilie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Not necessarily true. Modern diesel engines emit less CO2 and hydrocarbons than gasoline engines. In the US more NOx and particulates are emitted but in Europe diesel particulate filters are more common and those engines emit fewer particulates than gas engines. Also gas engine particulates are more toxic than diesel's.
- BatticusMao, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I've been saying for the past two years that hybrids for the most part are a waste of ***** time....hydrogen internal combustion will be a much better solution. in my opinion.
Its also gonna be great in about 10 years when these things start to have problems and the parts & labor costs are far beyond what a normal car repair would cost. - JFrizzle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Although it has been occuring in some businesses, I wish more companies encouraged employees to work from home. This isn't always a feasible solution for all people, but I know many people who unecessarily commute 50+ miles to work. Tele-commuting for many people is a winner for many many reasons. Unfortunately yours truly is one of these victims of having to drive 50 miles into to work to sit at my computer all day. At least I am driving a reasonably efficient car and found a co-worker to share rides in a car pool.
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