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126 Comments
- djmiller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+75UPDATE: The judge has rejected AT&T's motion to remove the documents from the public record.
- UltraNurd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+62Let's start putting our tech job salaries behind the EFF in this case... they're working for all of us.
http://www.eff.org/support/
Plus... who among you can refuse a free t-shirt? - goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+34Ok, I just finished reading the article, and it contains a BOMBSHELL. Previously I, and i believe most Americans thought that only AT&T, and a few other select companies internet traffic was being recorded.
This guys testimony shows otherwise. They are recording ALL of the traffic on the ENTIRE internet that passes through the US. His testimony includes a first hand account that they are monitoring Mae West, and includes documents to show that they are monitoring Mae East.
*****, it's 1984!
Quote: "Another "Cut-In and Test Procedure" document dated January 24, 2003, provides diagrams of how AT&T Core Network circuits were to be run through the "splitter" cabinet (PDF 7). One page lists the circuit IDs of key Peering Links which were "cut-in" in February 2003 (PDF 8), including ConXion, Verio, XO, Genuity, Qwest, PAIX, Allegiance, AboveNet, Global Crossing, C&W, UUNET, Level 3, Sprint, Telia, PSINet and Mae West. By the way, Mae West is one of two key internet nodal points in the United States (the other, Mae East, is in Vienna, Virginia). It's not just WorldNet customers who are being spied on -- it's the entire internet." - sedition, on 10/12/2007, -1/+27You're confusing communism with facism. A common mistake made by Americans. Not that China doesn't have it's share of Facism..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism - whiteghetto, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29NO!!, you are wrong. we cannot give up civil liberties for security. it is an amazingly American and patriotic path to take.
- kiltedwonder, on 10/12/2007, -1/+24Slapshot, the part we're digging down is this:
It's not 1984. Its post September 11, 2001. Considering the alternative I'd consider it more serious if the NSA *wasn't* monitoring traffic.
There is a famous quote on the subject by Ben Franklin: The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - SpringDog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21And it's a damn fine shirt, I might add!
- Namco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19I'm gonna wrap my computer in tin foil!
... but not before I donate to EFF :) - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19Don't worry, Threepio. It is the Empire that's doomed. They will be defeated by their own greed and arrogance. As long as the public remains vigilant, and as long as they're still anyone honest left to enforce the law, the schemes of the tyrants will always fail.
Bush has used 9/11 time and again as an excuse for his crimes. That might have worked once or twice, but even Americans are not so stupid as to be fooled a dozen times.
It is time that this criminal administration answered for its crimes against America and the world. - isolationism, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15Give this man your diggs. The EFF performs this service based on donations from people like us, not out of thin air. I'm not even in the US, but it doesn't take a genius to see the implications of this latest news.
The EFF needs our support to keep up their good work. I hope even a few people will realise this, and do what I did and make a small donation to the EFF to help them work in our best interests. - RankenPhile, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this is double-plus *****.
- CatfishJones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15@slapshot24
"Several high-level network experts ...say the pages may not be the smoking gun that Klein believes them to be." (with URL reference)
That's a great comment but this...
"It's not 1984. Its post September 11, 2001. Considering the alternative I'd consider it more serious if the NSA *wasn't* monitoring traffic."
He obviously hasn't read (or understood) Orwell's 1984. He's had too much of Bush's fear-juice and is willing to trade his privacy to an all-seeing, un-accountable government agency for security (or the impression thereof) That's why I dug his comment down. - threepio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13Obligatory Threepio Reference:
We're DOOMED! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12That's because no law supercedes the Constitution, which guarantees every citizen's right to privacy and the right to a due process warrant for search and seizure. It doesn't say "unless the President thinks it's a national security matter". Updated article with video here:
http://www.codebot.org/articles/?doc=9360 - critic, on 10/12/2007, -4/+15Damn! At the low end of the annoyance scale I bet the RIAA would love to get their hands on those logs. At the high end...This is worse than Nixon and Watergate could ever hope to be. This is so wrong on so many levels.
Have you joined the EFF yet? I couldn't afford the T-Shirt but opted for the Advocate ($25) membership.
Time to push back doncha think! - SpringDog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I believe people are taking issue with the fact that 1) the actions taken were indeed illegal and 2) very much against the Constitution (see the 4th Amendment).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution - ajb2015, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Oh, What's the matter? Don't like it when your personal information isn't kept private AT&T?
- kemche, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9to slapshot24:
They only need to store new data ONCE after that they have to log who is accessing the data. - Okayyou, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Kitedwonder- The quote you attribute to Franklin is inaccurate and is often misconstrued to bolster one's argument. "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." is the real quote.
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin
Notice that your quote and Franklin's original have entirely different implications. - TexMurphy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9==Narus ST-6400 and NarusInsight by Narus Ltd.==
Under Gen. Michael V. Hayden the NSA has forced tecom companies to implement massive domestic spying hardware. Even though Gen. Hayden has said at the National Press Club that "As the director, I was the one responsible to ensure that this program was limited in its scope and disciplined in its application." The NarusInsight is one type of domestic spying hardware. Capable of monitoring 10 billion bits of data per second in real-time. This means the NarusInsight can monitor an OC-192 in realtime. For reference 10 billion bits is 10 million Kbts, divide that by the average DSL user witch is 256 Kbts (10000000/256) you get monitoring of 39062.5 DSL lines in realtime for every piece of hardware. After data capture Narus softeware can replay data. What does this mean well acrodding too Narus website "Capabilities include playback of streaming media (for example, VoIP), rendering of Web pages, examination of e-mails and the ability to analyze the payload/attachments of e-mail or file transfer protocols." Think of it as Tivo for the internet able to replay 39000 US DSL users activity in realtime for every piece of hardware.
References:
Narus Ltd http://narus.com,
NATIONAL PRESS CLUB Transcript: http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/news/2006/intell-060123-dni01.htm http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1564046/posts
Hoover's company factsheet: http://www.hoovers.com/narus/--ID__60701--/free-co-factsheet.xhtml
Report by bewert: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/4/8/14724/28476
EFF case against AT&T http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/att_complaint_amended.pdf
All websits have been saved to preserve history. - onezero2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The EFF is one of the only charities I contribute to. Not that I am a selfish bastard or anything, but I like that I can see the results of my dollars in the news every week! Take it to 'EM EFF!
- sedition, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8You make some pretty strong statements there. Care to back them up? I'm not disagreeing, just curious.
And while you're at it, do you have a good suggestion for what your "average citizen" should do to fight this kind of criminal behaviour by their government? To most people the EFF seems to be their only hope at the moment. - goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8"We are at war as unobvious as this may appear"
You're right it's not obvious, because we ARE NOT AT WAR. Otherwise we might have to treat the people in Guantanamo like prisoners of war instead of shoving chemical lamps up their asses, and taking pictures of it.
Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that no many how many times, or how loudly bush yells it America is NOT AT WAR until congress votes that we are. They have not.
Why not? I don't know, but if you ask me it's because the declaration would look really stupid with the 'Opponent:' field filled in with 'Uhhhh.....Terror?....No, wait....Uhhhh, Iraq?....Errr, Drugs I mean.....Ummmm, Wabbits?"
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A country can not go to war against an emotion. "Terror' is not a country, in much the same way that 'Love' is not. Neither is 'Terror-ism'. Terror-ism is the action of causing someone else to feel terror. You can not go to war against a verb. In much the same way that you cannot go to war against 'screwing'.
Although I wish I could write a law to outlaw the government 'screwing' the American people. - acr2001, on 10/12/2007, -10/+17slapshot24:
To whoever is digging you down grow up??
Is that a joke? THE ENTIRE DIGG COMMUNITY gets to digg comments up and down. You have been dugg down. You are telling EVERYONE except you to grow up. Do you think maybe that means YOU need to grow up? People like you amaze me! - SyvanX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8This article doesn't talk about phone wiretaps, and the people here aren't responding to phone records being datamined.
- kiltedwonder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Of course it wasn't a wire tap. They were tapping into fiber optics, not metal wires. ;-)
One of the big problems is the lack of oversight, not necessarily what they are doing. As long as all they are doing is what is totally legal, then it's, well, legal if not right. The lack of oversight and the massive amount of data they have access to is another matter.
I haven't read enough (yet) to prove to me that it is illegal &/or wrong, but I have read enough to have me concerned. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6View ALL of the DOCUMENTS HERE:
http://www.eff.org/legal/cases/att/#legal - thedonquixote, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Oh you can find em on the EFF site.
- thedonquixote, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Where do we get the documents? I mean the whole documents. I google it and report back.
- goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7slapshot24 - "How many terabytes per minute is that?"
Short answer: How the hell would I know. The point is they are.
Long speculative answer: Maybe they do it like a giant database. They store only URLs/email headers, and then use those as 'pointers' to later retrieve the actual relevant information if it sets off some 'bad guy' alarm. Or if it sets off the 'someone I don't like very much' alarm in some non-accountable NSA agent or bureaucrat somewhere.
Since the information has been deemed too classified for the DOJ to know about, we may never know the full details. Which is apparently just the way china....Errr I mean America seems to want it. - 5blocksfree, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6What's frighteningly funny about all this is that all this high-tech and illegal spying simply cannot thwart at least four methods of communication: highly-encrypted, plain language where innocuous conversation means something entirely different to those using it, manual delivery, and image-based concealment. Because of these gaping holes, it seems that only the truly stupid would attempt to plan something out in the clear...and I think it's safe to conclude that the people behind 9/11 were anything BUT stupid. Underestimating the intelligence of your enemies can be a very costly mistake.
- goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@slapshot24 Expensive or Difficult != Impossible.
Think about it bro, Its freakin' Mae East. There have the bandwidth, in fact all of it.
All the NSA has to do is retransmit it back to their headquarters. The only reason they even need a closet on site at all, is to store the transmission gear (remember fiber has to be physically spliced, unlike copper) and maybe some sort of 'grep the whole damn internet' tool. - gyrfalcon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@theblooms
You're an ignorant fool at best... They have direct fiber optic taps in those facilities, which means they can monitor anything going over the line.
With no oversite, how do you know they're only monitoring phone records? Because that's what the NSA, CNN & MS-NBC are saying they're monitoring?....yesh...
Why don't you bend over in front of my steel toed boot... trust me, I'd never kick you, and CBS says so too. - rpdillon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5slapshot24:
I don't know why you think it is so implausible. Especially since most of the evidence points in that direction.
Forget the government, even Google makes a copy of the ENTIRE internet every few days (sure there are some exceptions, but their traffic would blow your mind...terrabytes/day is on the vanishly small end of the spectrum).
To answer your question, it's probably more like petabytes/day, and who cares? It well within reason to think that an organization as well funded as the U.S. government can store that much data.
The question you failed to ask involves the real technical hurdle, and also is where we *should* be placing our concern, now that we know they are collecting the data: what are they doing with the data? How do they filter it, and what are they filtering for? Do we ever even get to know?
Tinc and Hamachi are looking better and better... =) - Dayyve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4'"Boy, you are dumb. Why don't you go grab a six-shooter ala Geraldo and wander around the desert laying waste to terrorists."
ad hominem attack'
Was it the 'you are dumb' part that gave it away? You're absolutely correct, I retract what I said since it is wrong. I'm also aware that there are many fine politicians out there who really do want to do the best for this fine country - but to say that they are giving up the high-falutin' life of the private sector because they care oh so much about everybody is just ridiculous and not true. Isn't just about everybody in Congress a millionaire? - goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Only moonbats...blah, blah, rant, blah, ignore the facts, blah, rant somemore...."
Name calling, ignoring the facts in favor of you own limited agenda (whatever the f*** it is), blaming your fellow Americans for the terrorist attacks...
Mr. Bush, I didn't know you read Digg!
Anyhow, how the hell can I 'leave you to your freedom', when you don't have any freedoms left? Or did you just mean your freedom fries, you fact ignoring left leaning, SUV driving, redneck, all American moron.
PS Sorry about the name calling, but you started it with that 'moonbat' *****. - SyvanX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@mrman
That's a different story, this one is about monitoring the internet, the other NSA story is about tracking calling records. - seenthefuture, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4OFC the net is a public place.
This has always been about control, not protection. If you really want to know a good part of what's going on with this country read up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century - Okayyou, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The quote does apply to the situation, the problem is it can easily be used by both sides to make their point. The crux of the quote is the "Essential" and "Little" terms. What are essential liberties and how much security is provided? This brings us back to the original issue which I doubt will become resolved in the comments section of digg.
- tony23, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9don't try to confuse the issue with facts and reasonable thought, please.
- slapshot24, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Okay, whose sock-puppet troll is this?
- seenthefuture, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I wonder when this was conceptualized...
http://www.business.att.com/content/productsub-category/images/internet_protect.gif - Dayyve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Boy, you are dumb. Why don't you go grab a six-shooter ala Geraldo and wander around the desert laying waste to terrorists.
To even say 'pass on high paying jobs' to work for the government is the funniest political comment I've heard in YEARS. You can go back to watching O'Reilley, your supreme overlord. - rolosworld, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5so... why they needed the search queries from google,msn,yahoo..etc, if they are spying on the WHOLE Internet on US? to make people think they where not spying?
- Saintlink, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I still can't believe that this article has receive less than 800 diggs. Where is the outrage?
- BigFoot48, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Just to repeat that before the people that don't like reason and thought start the thumbs-down ramage on your comment: this was NOT A WIRETAP. If you want to argue a position at least get your facts right.
- goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Dayyve - Gotta respect anyone who can admit when they're wrong, and be nice about it.
+Friend - goatrandy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3allthewhile - I'm gonna ignore the 'file sharing is illegal' rant (it isn't, and everyone knows it), but I couldn't let this little logical fallacy slip past soo quickly:
"They attack high profile defendents or defend high profile defendents, without the slightest possibility of winning."
Uhhh...Duh. That's what a non-profit legal agency does. They take the cases that no one else can afford to, or is willing to take. Not because they're going to win, but because its the RIGHT THING TO DO. - ShaunO, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Without anyone willing to stand behind them, right and wrong are just nice ideas. Without anyone willing to stand behind them, the constitution and bill of rights are just interesting bits of paper. Picking fights you know you can win is the job of your 'ambulance chasers'. Fighting fights because they ought to be fought, is a much nobler cause.
I don't care if they win or lose. Letting no liberty be lost without a challenge, is a cause worth supporting. So the EFF get my money. - Dayyve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@guttertrash
It's so funny how foreigners think that Americans think that they are the most important country in the world. -
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