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79 Comments
- Phocion55, on 10/12/2007, -43/+150Is it just me.....or are the reasons to stick with WinXP just piling up?
- RogerStrong, on 10/12/2007, -11/+82It's not just you, but then it's not Vista either.
RAW metadata isn't standardized between manufacturers, so just about anything that touches it messes it up. You'll have the same issues in XP, and with third-party software.
Likewise, the AACS, HDCP and BOHICA content protection built into high-definition DVD's cause the same problems whether you have XP or Vista. (I have an XP system that came with an HD-DVD player and a movie. I can't play it, because my HP monitor doesn't support HDCP.) If you have Linux or a Mac, they won't play at all.
Vista has many of the same issues and problems that any other OS has. But Microsoft is a big target, lots of competitors want to discredit it, so now everything that's a problem with the industry in general is now a Vista issue. - MioTheGreat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+36Anything that touches metadata on these files destroys them.
If everyone would just settle on a single standard format, Maybe this wouldn't happen. But Nooooo...every camera manufacturer has to be different. - 7of7, on 10/12/2007, -21/+53"Yeah, this isn't actually Microsoft's doing - hence them asking camera venders to fix it. The metadata formatting isn't standardized, and with every camera maker using their own format, MS just used the standard JPG metadata definitions. This is like complaining that the general purpose cupholder you bought at Kragen doesn't fit the giant soda that McDonalds sells.
How come every time some third party screws up something in Vista, Gizmodo's first advice is "Don't upgrade" - rather than "Don't use this feature if it conflicts with this other feature until the 3rd party fixes it."
Seems like the Apple tattoo is sticking out of your trendy low-rise jeans there, Gizmodo..."
QFT - Shayer, on 10/12/2007, -15/+37Because Digg is run by apple zealots who jump at the first chance to diss anything Windows while giving a blind eye to any problems of Apple. Just recall all the problems Mac OS X 10 had when it was first released or all of the problems of the Macbook when it was released last year. Happy to ignore the faults and problems of those and instead attack others.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -31/+51Let me guess, this will be yet another false accusation that makes the frontpage of digg. Yet when these accusations are proven wrong, they're no where to be seen. Typical.
- Giga, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17"It is Among! Not Amongst! We arent brits!"
God damn Americans generalising everything... Perhaps HE IS a "brit". Digg isn't exclusive to one country. - Linh, on 10/12/2007, -9/+26marked as inaccurate. how the hell can you blame vista for nikon slapping picture info in places where it shouldn't be.
- mancat, on 10/12/2007, -7/+22Maybe Photoshop and friends shouldn't assume that they have exclusive rights to image file metadata.
This could also happen if you edit the file's metadata in XP or with other third-party tools. If you're going to edit the low-level metadeta of your images, you should be aware that it can break things for cranky applications. - MrSarcasm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Welcome to digg
- dan2, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17Says the guy with the windows logo as his icon.
- zlintux, on 10/12/2007, -7/+17I'm looking at images from a Nikon Coolpix E800, Nikon Coolpix E5400, and a Nikon D80 in gqview with EXIF data. None of the three cameras do as you describe.
Additionally, the latter two also backup the information to an info.txt (a feature you can turn off/on). - eboy, on 10/12/2007, -13/+21is this a new feature of Vista.
- Resolver, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8calm down dude. i'm a fan of windows too, but that doesn't mean you have to slam people when they point out a flaw.
- rmwaite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9hackwrench:
The reason they aren't using file streams is because then the meta-data would only work with NTFS. Copy your library over to a USB flash drive? Linux partition? Tags are gone.
If they DID use NTFS file streams then you'd all be up in arms about how they're trying to "lock us in" to NTFS and start crying about DRM and such. The fact of the matter is, file streams were not invented for this kind of use, so you're really rather stupid for even suggesting it. - Wang, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9"Anything that touches metadata on these files destroys them.
If everyone would just settle on a single standard format, Maybe this wouldn't happen."
Well said....this article is just another excuse to bash Vista. Vista is not the problem here... - graiz, on 10/12/2007, -16/+22Nikon cameras will often place their internal meta-data inside the "Caption" field instead of the standard fields. This will basically cause problems with any standard program that reads and edits meta data. Vista may still have a problem but I'm not 100% sure this doesn't have something to do with Nikon as well.
- flag564, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14Gizmodo is trying to win back all of the fanboys that abandoned them over the whole Cisco iPhone debacle back in December.
Their stories are so slanted, It's almost cartoonish. - morcheeba, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Ditto. I just looked at my coolpix5400 and D80 pictures. Meta-data per normal EXIF, not crammed in one field.
- Giga, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Perhaps they are expected by Windows users. I have never had a Mac or a Linux box destroy image metadata, for example.
I think you need to set your standards higher for system upgrades."
That would be a reason why it is never a shocker, not why it is always a shocker. I should add that I have never had Vista destroy image metadata, perhaps because my camera doesn't break the standards... - superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7It's true that Tiger does not let you edit metadata. But it's also true that OS X lets you add metadata that is stored seperatly from file data.
An interesting sidenote is that both Adobe Lightroom and Apple's Aperture do not let you save metadata changes to a RAW file directly, probably to avoid exactly this problem. Microsoft gets a black mark because it's better to do nothing at all than to accidentally destroy what is essentially a digital negative - I mean, if you had done this to your only RAW file what are you going to do now? They should have stuck to metadata editing in formats like TIFF or JPEG where the writing of such data is more standardized, and never alter a RAW file directly. - hackwrench, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Why should Microsoft use Microsoft's method (that they've had ever since they introduced file streams into the NTFS format) for adding attribute information without trashing attribute information that's already present?
Is this really that hard to understand?
You say it won't work on partions commonly used for Linux? And this should bother Microsoft because? It's nit like Microsoft has supported their use with Windows. It's also not like people who do Linux filesystems have been interested in file streams either and if they wanted to they could write a filesystem for use with Linux that supported file streams.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTFS#Features
links to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fork_%28filesystem%29
which seems to say that NTFS has had alternate data streams since it's inception, since NTFS 1.0. and adds:
With Windows 2000, Microsoft started using alternate data streams in NTFS to store things such as author or title file attributes and image thumbnails. - bar10dr, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Is it just me or will this be fixed soon?
Wait for SP1 and you'll be okey. - aliguana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3yeah, but "professional photographers" would use iView or Capture One or Lightroom or Photoshop to keyword their images anyway, not an operating system, as they are bound to be incompatible at some level. Photoshop on PC or Photoshop on Mac - same thing. Futureproofing.
- aristotle0dude, on 10/12/2007, -10/+12If this is a third party issue, why doesn't Tiger have the same problem?
Can't Vista check what's in the field before ploughing all over it? Why do they need to use this field? Why can't they store it in file metadata like OS X does? - TonyCubed, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6"Because Digg is run by apple zealots who jump at the first chance to diss anything Windows while giving a blind eye to any problems of Apple. Just recall all the problems Mac OS X 10 had when it was first released or all of the problems of the Macbook when it was released last year. Happy to ignore the faults and problems of those and instead attack others."
What I find really ironic about Digg, is that the Mac Fanboys are quick to diss Windows, but they are quick to defend the Xbox360 against Sony! :P - dennytang, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Important information for people who keyword their images:
Use Microsoft Windows Vista, XP or Microsoft Digital Imaging to keyword images. Microsoft's method of placing keywords into a file is correct and standard. Some software such as Adobe Photoshop Album, inserts keywords with their own method. There are other software that can keyword images correctly, but I haven't tried enough software to know which ones they are.
The main feature of having keywords placed in images correctly is that you can search according to the keywords in the images. For example, if I had a folder of pictures I took in a zoo, and I only want to view the pictures with zebras in it, I can simply search for "Zebra" instead of finding each photo manually. If the images had keywords from Adobe Photoshop Album, I can only search using Adobe Photoshop Album and not the Windows Search tool. It' not such a big deal, but keywording takes a lot of time and it's important to do it correctly in the beginning.
Professional Photographers may be interested in IPTC:
http://www.iptc.org/pages/index.php - noahhoward, on 10/12/2007, -12/+14Don, you ever stop and think perhaps that when things are found to be inaccurate they are buried as such and that is why they disappear?
- nick0909, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Good thing I did the Digg usual and didn't read the page before coming to post about it. Now that I see its gizmodo I am not going to click the link, those lousy bastards don't deserve my hit to bump their counter even one click.
- Wonderkind, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5Yeah, maybe it's the fault of varying formats, but still there are only about a dozen or so.
Seems to me that it's about time a company as huge as MS should be able to come up with an operating system that works when it's released.
Have we been that well trained to accept faulty products as "normal"?
Beta means beta, not V1.0 through 2.4.
What, does MS not have enough beta testers? - kolop1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Yeah I get it no one will ever switch to vista. Just look at 98, no one was going to use that either.
- qbyte, on 10/12/2007, -11/+13Things like this are always expected with major OS upgrades. Why is it always such a shocker?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+14noadhoward, you're correct. No one ever buries an article simply because they don't like the idea behind it. Especially comments.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Pitiful how all of the camera vendors' software is amateur-hour *****.
- klang, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Vista is the problem here. It's better not to touch things you don't understand than to try, and ***** up.
If a user WANT to change meta data on his precious RAW files, let him make a program to do so himself, until you are 100% sure that you can do the editing correctly. - graiz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Nikon uses the IPTC data and places a strange tag in the field: [#Beginning of Shooting Data Section]. I've seen this with the Nikon D70. It could be the transfer software, I'm not totally sure. If you search google for "[#Beginning of Shooting Data Section]" you'll see a ton of Flickr and SmugMug galleries that automatically read the caption tag. This data also shows up in Photoshop (CS2) as the caption.
- wallclimber, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Let's face it, Vista isn't FINISHED??? After 5 years, and "extensive BETA testing? After releasing it to businesses and finally to the general public?
So, the next question is; when is it going to be "finished"? - klang, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Microsoft is already working on the next version of the Windows operating system, and you dare to tell me that Vista isn't finished?
- nick0909, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Nikon stores their ISO information from some cameras in a non-standard location. It isn't the comment field, its something like "extra data 1" or some random spot. However, if you use a "camera aware" piece of software like Photoshop or Photo Mechanic it will know that a Nikon D70 has the ISO information somewhere else and go fetch it from there instead of the usual spot. If you use some other kind of generic EXIF reading program they won't know to look elsewhere and just display a blank field. It is rather annoying when you are using a piece of software that isn't camera aware, and I am rather pissed at Nikon for not using the standard field.
- V1ncent, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Vista is following XP's cycle - after the release it takes about 6-8mos to get the kinks worked out. It's nothing new and to be oh my god this OS bites speak
- yellowmello, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I thought they MS said that vista could read and show raw files?
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3It's called "testing". I don't think Nikon cameras are exactly rare - any feature in Vista dealing with photographs should work flawlessly with both Canon and Nikon at the very least. Other models I could cut them more slack with, sincde obviously they cannot test with every camera... but at least the biggest camera makers.
- andyrobo60, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6"Microsoft's asking camera vendors to make processing plugins for Vista that don't make images unreadable"
is it just me or is that saying 'we made the problem now you can go fix it'?? - 35chililights, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3@mainchemical
its called the iDick. and it has hella cool features. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Well if you read what dennytang said carefully, he was talking to the average joe. Then, he said if you're a professional photographer, you should check out IPTC. The IPTC thing he was referring to is not actually a software, but a standard for keywording images that's used in many stock photo sites.
And actually, some of those programs like Photoshop, iView, aren't good software for keywording photos. I would recommend Aperture, or like you've mentioned, Lightroom. But the software dennytang recommended, Digital Imaging, is also very good for keywording images and it's easy for beginners. - thombone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Really?
So what happens when Microsoft decides to hold the world hostage? Or, since the code is CLOSED and nobody can see it, perhaps put in a back door in order to gain information from government(s) or competitor(s) to gain leverage?
MS has proven that they have NO scruples. They are also in a unique position-- they have a piece of software that nobody is allowed to look at in detail, under the hood, that gives them reach into every nook and cranny of just about everywhere.
That doesnt' scare you?
THINK. - thombone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Vista is Windows 6.0
6.0
I'll say it again: 6.0
It took FIVE years to develop.
Five.
I'll say it again, FIVE.
NO more excuses. ANY developer worth two ***** should be able to get their product right by version 6.0. - thombone, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Ummm.. no.
It's a draconian EULA. It's DRM up the wazoo. It's a monopoly. It's a very high price for a very low quality OS. It's not having choice if you want to be windows compatible when you buy a new OEM machine. It's about embracing, extending and then extinguishing open standards (OpenGL, anyone? How about XML? Kerebos? Java (well that one they lost thank Gawd)? POSIX? The list is HUGE.)
It's about a lot of things. And it's NOT just an "OS" it's the foundation for what makes the world we live in FUNCTION. NO ONE company, especially a monopoly, should be in control of that. Operating systems have become necessary to society. Therefore, NO corporation should be allowed to destroy competition. It's NOT a free market, anymore. The entire world economy relies on Microsoft, due to the absolute NEED to be compatible and Microsoft closing their file interchange formats to competition.
SO.. if you think it's "just" an OS.. .you're smoking something. Something bad. - victorc26, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0We're getting into conspiracy theories here. Sure they CAN do that, but will they?
What good will it do to them? I don't know, it just seems like a "What for, why bother" situation. - Lighthater, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2you really should stop talking now... really. This isn't Microsoft's fault. If they used NTFS streams, then the meta data would be useless in the camera itself or other operating systems. They should have just left the meta data alone and blame the camera makers for not creating a uniform standard that they ALL follow.
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