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Why women quit technology careers

computerworld.com — More than half of the women in science, engineering and IT leave the field at mid­career. Here's the reason.

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  • DarkShroud, on 06/16/2008, -43/+28Just look at tech classes in Colleges. All of mine that did not involve Office programs had maybe 2 women. Hell I went a whole year without seeing any women in my classes.

    Then you get geeks in office. Many of whome live at their computer desks between the office & home. Eporn is the closest many of them have come to getting laid. Woman in their is litterly a lamb to hungry animals.
    • lordtyros, on 06/16/2008, -6/+24You mean females literally transform into a different species?
      • diggduggDOOM, on 06/16/2008, -9/+31I literally dislike the misuse of the word "literally."
      • dboone74, on 06/16/2008, -7/+17The use of the word "literally" preceeding a metaphor is a pet peeve of mine. I expressed this to a group of college educated peers and was met with empty stares. Don't people know the definition of the word literally? Do people think it is superlative?
        • JParsons4, on 06/17/2008, -0/+5yes
        • SymbolicChaos, on 06/17/2008, -2/+7Many English words take on a slang form in that of superlative usage.

          And "college educated peers" doesn't mean as much as it used to. ;)
        • derek20cali, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3Maybe you came across as a douche when you said it?
      • akatherder, on 06/17/2008, -4/+6I literally fly off the handle when someone misuses the word "literally".
        • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2I did that once. Now I can't find my handle anymore, and have to roost in a chair. :(
    • SymbolicChaos, on 06/16/2008, -4/+13Whoa there, let's try to keep the conversation away from furries.
    • rocknkittyn, on 06/16/2008, -1/+9Commas. Use them.
    • sg1fan, on 06/16/2008, -6/+14Not sure why you're getting dugg down. You are quite correct. In our class, we started with 10 women, half were gone in the first semester. When I first started at a company after college there were 2 guys whose eyes lit up when they saw me. I guess they figured since I was a female developer I would instantly go for them.

      And I am even considering getting out of the field, and I am in my early 30s. I do love programming, but it's the people that are running the company I'm with into the ground that are driving me nuts. If I could find another forward thinking company I would continue on.
      • Browzer, on 06/17/2008, -0/+4He's probably getting dug down because the article was about women leaving the technology field mid-career, not about the lack of women entering the field (although I suppose that is another subject).

        I wonder what the attrition rate is for men. I have a couple of friends who just decided they weren't into IT anymore and switched to a different field. I'm a male software engineer with 6 years experience, and I'm considering leaving IT, too. I'm sick of the impersonal world of computers. I want to do something more creative and work more directly with people.

        I went into computers because I was good at it, it was safe, and I liked it well enough. But now I'm finding that the work isn't satisfying me at all.
        • biotch, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Hes making the point that 40% is laughable.... and hes right.
    • punchingjudy, on 06/16/2008, -2/+3I'm going to guess that you didn't read the article.
    • 1Bad, on 06/17/2008, -7/+7Well, the article says, " We found that 63% of women in science, engineering and technology have experienced sexual harassment." It never explicitly says the sexual harassment was experienced in the work place, or was committed by a co-worker. Maybe women who have been sexually harassed in the past are just more likely to choose technical fields, seeking out validation of their beauty, but later drop out because they do not recieve the sexual validation from their co-workers which they seek out. Perhaps they choose technical fields because they see nerds as the most likely to freely give out praise based on beauty because of their assumed lack of sexual partners. In my experience male nerds are very warry of bringing up sexual topics with women, and thus these women never recieve the validation they are seeking. I learned all this from "Love Line". "Were you raped as a child?", "did your father abuse you?", "Was there an absent parent?" all valid choices in the "Love Line" world...
    • cmp1968, on 06/17/2008, -2/+5Whome? Their? Litterly?

      Chicks dig grammar. Also, they like it when you not only know how to spell 'literally', but know how to use it correctly.
    • jabberwolf, on 06/17/2008, -2/+4Iz we illiterate chauvinistic catz ?!
  • louiebaur, on 06/16/2008, -11/+23Wow that is a lot of women dropping out
    • orlyfactor, on 06/16/2008, -8/+47Yep all 5 of them are gone now :(
    • RationalXubrnce, on 06/16/2008, -15/+5 It suggest maybe the percentage of women in these fields is too high to start with.
    • Andyl194, on 06/16/2008, -2/+4hmmmm pretty scary read since my sister is going into this field.
      • SarahC, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1you should past back to digg in the future with a report of what happened.
    • houndeyex, on 06/17/2008, -6/+30I think the article said, "Blah blah blah sexual harassment quit"
    • jabberwolf, on 06/17/2008, -5/+10Maybe having all the hot studz in IT was just too overwhelming for them?!
    • rpgmaker, on 06/17/2008, -4/+2They just don't have The Force...
  • lekahe, on 06/16/2008, -34/+12When women hear now and then starting from their birth that they are inferior to men they start to believe it themselves at some point. Having enough confidence in the men's world is harder than many people can even think! Attitudes are hard to change...
    • wynja, on 06/16/2008, -17/+10Okay, fact. Men and women operate differently. Women have 10% less brain mass and 20% more connectivity between their brain hemispheres. Women tend to be better at communicating feelings and ideas. They also tend to be more focused on their family.
      • Kappa00, on 06/16/2008, -7/+14Okay, fact. You have provided no sources to back yourself up.
      • Cate320, on 06/16/2008, -4/+14You're completely wrong. There have been studies done that show women have similar aptitudes for the sciences and maths, but less *interest* than men, which is what causes the lower numbers.

        Yes, I realize I also have no sources to back myself up (too lazy to find the articles atm), but it should be pretty obvious to anyone that has ever gone to High School (where both sexes were forced to take the same classes). Girls do just as well as boys in those subjects. The decrease in women comes in later - at the tertiary level where all classes are basically electives.
        • stk198323, on 06/17/2008, -3/+4Wrong! Females does not have the same aptitude for sciences and math! Given a forced math or science class, women tends to get as good result as men! That has nothing to do with WANTING to continue in this domain when let free to do so.

          Being in science is harder then a lot of people think. Were man stay's in a scientific field, woman tend to drop because they are NOT interested as much as men are. I never saw a women running everywhere in a lab screaming about how her new experiment could revolutionize science, but a lot of man does... And because of that men seem's to value there work more then woman does. Or maybe those people are just too optimistic, whatever it is.

          If you do not value what you do yourself you will not continue doing it. Of course everytime I heard someone screaming and laughing and jumping everywhere because he ''discovered something'' this did not lead to any new invention at most a 1% amelioration to something else but they did value there research by THEMSELVES!

          Most women tend to look at what other people think and judge by those people if what she did is important or not: how many time did you hear a man ask if his jeans make his but look nice? So when they come up to someone else whose opinion is more calm and relaxed on the subject they get there moral destroyed where man still believe they made a significant discovery and are happy by that.
        • gryphon50, on 06/17/2008, -0/+4you are being dugg down for saying the honest truth. Men and women ARE raised very differently. This article is cataloging the sexism in the industry and people ignore all that and fall back on the old idea of women just not having a proper aptitude. Answer me this- girls' scores have been improving greatly in math and science, so how can that be explained genetically? Are our genes changing and improving with each generation? Give me a break. People's attitudes are changing (but not on Digg, of course).
        • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1I see you get a free bill for not doing the research and I get dugg down. Here's a link to a discussion of brain differences: http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/ ...
        • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1@gryphon50 men and women are different. yes, we can preform the same tasks. no, we do not go about them the same way. is this genetic or environmental? that's the age old question and is irrelevant to the current discussion as the differences still exist.
      • tehbored, on 06/17/2008, -2/+6Actually women have slightly more brain mass. However, it's true that their brains are wired differently. Men can do certain things better than women can and women can do other things better than men can. The article discusses that, but that is only one of the many reasons it gives for women dropping out of sci/tech careers.
      • ryansmith18, on 06/17/2008, -3/+1BEARS. BEETS. BATTLESTAR GALACTICA.
    • lekahe, on 06/17/2008, -2/+4I think I just proved my point :)
      -23 Diggs to what I have experienced myself. The majority seems to think that women have different kind of brains = not as able in the field!
      Women who have enough self confidence don't just quit. That self confidence is hard to build if most of the other people are trying to convince otherwise!
      • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -2/+4I agree with you whole-heartedly, sir; check out my comment history. Everything I write is pretty well-dugg except when it's in support of women.

        I bet plenty of women check out Digg.com, but defer when they realize it's flooded with the same misogynist assholes the IT offices are.
        • electrosheep, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Yes, that includes me! I'm a girl, and I'm starting to lose interest in Digg... You wouldn't believe the misogyny I come across! It's unbelievable! And then they wonder why there's hardly any girls on Digg! Right, because it's such a nice inviting place to be!
        • Testiculese, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1'Sir'? You ought to read those comments a little more thoroughly :)
  • I1969, on 06/16/2008, -17/+5The four reasons cited in the list are quite interesting ... particular the first and the fourth.
  • erranttv, on 06/16/2008, -20/+9Its like none of you read the article. Most women drop out because of environment is not woman-friendly/discriminatory.
    • wynja, on 06/16/2008, -6/+17BS, the women I know who have quite the tech field have done so because they don't like to be so isolated. They have moved on to jobs where they interact with others on a regular basis.

      In fact, the best IT manager I've ever had is a woman.
      • drakelord, on 06/16/2008, -3/+11Thats also in the article, if you'd read it.
        • stk198323, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2No the article twist it in a sens to make us believe that the woman in the group is left in an isolated cubicle when there male counterpart are doing a party in the reception room!
        • stk198323, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2No, the article twist it to make us believe woman are left in a small cubicle in the darkest and furthest piece of the office while the man are doing a party in the other room...
        • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1I RTFA you twit. I'm addressing the comment by erranttv.
      • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -3/+1Replace "women" with "blacks" and I've heard that excuse before...
        • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1WTF are you talking about? I'm talking about real world experience with women in the IT field and you throw in the race card? Buried for stupidity, because noone has ever said that blacks don't like the isolation of the IT field.
        • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Buried for playing the race card........... and having no relevance to the discussion at hand.
        • LLLSecretChimp, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Black people were being sexually harassed in their IT jobs?
      • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -2/+1I don't think there's really that much disparity in actual social connectivity, merely the level of NEED for connectivity. Everyone is isolated and focused on their work in a self-contained manner, but the men like it and the women are tortured by it.

        One of the big arguments as to why we need women in IT is that meaningful/powerful technology largely cannot be brought to life as one man projects, and men just aren't willing/able enough to collaborate well or cooperatively act as cohesive parts of a bigger whole. Piecing together individual's bits of work into a larger cohesive project is never an easy task, and most of CS theory and programming languages are aimed at helping that process, but it doesn't come naturally no matter how good the tools or how loosely coupled be the design. The nature of instructing a computer requires focused attention to detail and personal mental control over all variables (including the surrounding project environment) to ensure that the intended outcome is always reached in every possible scenario, that everything talks to our code the way we understand it and that calling code understands our code. Men get the focus and logic part right, but how do they maintain that precision and control across their own work and that of 27 other programmers/db admins/sysadmins/networking specialists/contractors/artists/HCI specialists/hardware gurus/engineers/deployment staff? They do their best, and probably do well enough if they only have to deal with 3 or 4 others and there is a respected hierarchy or close agreement, but as the number of components and programmers increases, men fail to socially connect to each other enough to effectively understand and fulfil their code's role in the project, and major conflicts arise. Women's natural advantages become more valuable as they are better able to maintain the big picture without getting bogged down in (or forgetting) the ground-level details that still make or break the whole project, as well as being better equipped to bring social cohesion to that many human elements.

        Men make great code monkeys and project DICTATORS, but when men take the helm that way, the project hinges completely on the strengths and weaknesses of that leader and gains little benefit from the strengths of the team. Even baseline competent women in charge tend not to be the fail point in a project, and in a field with a greater than 50% project failure rate, that alone is a boon. The lower ranks still benefit from elements that improve social cohesion (women) but don't need many of them because the job is still primarily one of focusing on details, which means sitting in your cubicle or office and solving your problem in isolation. If you are a woman entering IT, you won't get much emotional support because your leaders/peers are unaccustomed to needing to provide it. But you can (and should) actively solicit (in a business/professional/job-related context) the social connection you crave. It's good for you, your coworkers, and the project, and will earn you the position of respect and equality you deserve from your peers by providing a valuable service (the project's/team's glue) for which men's strengths are ill-suited.
        • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Well, I'm glad we got the sexist female position out of the way. Like I've said time and time again there are exceptions to all the generalizations we make.

          I guess in your world the Apollo, Gemini, and Mercury Missions were all just flukes.
        • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -1/+1Did I say something that upset you? Generalisms generally hold true and specifically don't. I assume your inappropriate application of specific examples to contradict a generalization were meant to discredit generalizations themselves, but if you are accusing me of judging individuals by stereotypes, you have no basis for such a claim and would be completely wrong.

          Of course there are exceptions which is why we should never apply stereotypes to individuals without first making an unbiased judgement, but the stereotypes wouldn't exist in the first place if those exceptions were not /exceptional/ cases. Consequently, I make no apology for applying stereotypes/generalizations to generalized problems or discussion...they are still /generally/ useful, and people who are /specifically/ offended by them need to climb down from their high horse.
  • wynja, on 06/16/2008, -36/+72I graduated from a CS program with several women that have since left the CS field. Personally, I feel it has to do with the way women and men are hard wired. Yes, that's stereotyping, but there's a reason we have stereotypes in the first place. Also, obviously there are going to be exception to the rule.
    • mbarker1983, on 06/16/2008, -19/+23I think that this will fall into the finding that "63% of women in science, engineering and technology have experienced sexual harassment."
      • RobotBuddha, on 06/17/2008, -2/+18Only 63%? I'm hardly exceptionally good looking, and even as a male I've experienced sexual harassment within a couple years of graduating(from all genders and sexual orientations). As for while "in" school, how could anyone even get past their freshman year without some comment that would technically be considered harassment. The term itself is overused to the point of being somewhat meaningless now.
      • Flytrap, on 06/17/2008, -2/+11Mmmm, so the men in the science, engineering and technology fields are more likely to sexually harass their female counterparts (at least to the extent that they abandon their chosen professional careers) than their counterparts in say... the financial and accounting, military, fashion and modeling or maybe even athletics fields?
        • nycmac247, on 06/17/2008, -0/+11"modeling"
          LOL all those guys are gay - and especially the old queens that run it!
          Never wonder why those catwalk bitches are so thin? So they can look like boys...
      • harbrut, on 06/17/2008, -1/+5I think it has way less to do with sexual harassment and way more to do with people trying to pressure women into going into fields they don't want to go into. I used to be a member of the ACM and at least 2 or 3 times a year I'd get some email about women not going into the tech field and that we need to give them more scholarships to entice them. Tell them all the time it's OK to be scientific or whatever. Well, what if we did this instead: give them scholarships to do what they want and encourage them to do whatever they're interested in.

        I realize that's kind of a crazy, but when people pursue careers they enjoy, they tend to stay in them. I graduated with a number of girls (BS in CS), 4 of which I am very close to. They all hate programming and wish they had done something else. Not because of sexual harassment or some other copout: they just don't enjoy it. I wonder if they had been offered a scholarship in something they were passionate about would they hate it too by now, or still be loving it? Let's encourage women to do what they're passionate about instead of trying to force them all into stuff they don't all want to do. That will solve the problem.
        • MoosaofND, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Best point so far - though if you read the article, there's plenty of other motivation for women to hate the job based on how work environment is experienced differently by women. I have loved and hated jobs where I was doing essentially the same work, based on the environment I was working in -. general morale and relationships with co-workers.

          So women like your old classmates are less likely to see redeeming qualities in their actual projects if they don't like other aspects of going to work as much as men.
    • lemur, on 06/16/2008, -6/+7Well it's possible to make that argument without going into any kind of "stereotype" per se. Your point is that there is some biological distinction; if that is indeed the case, it would be no more of a stereotype than the scientific observation that men nearly always have more testosterone than women. The reason why I bring up sex hormones as an example is because it may actually be relevant to the topic of the "women in technology jobs" debate.
      • robbiemuffin, on 06/16/2008, -1/+3its not the case. men are biologically more likely to be a little better at geometric problems. When was the last time you used that kind of low level math that there wasn't a library for?
        • lemur, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Does it follow based on what you said that men would average higher scores on Tetris? Let's test it!
      • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2We really are just beginning to learn the difference between the brain structure of men and women: http://www.livescience.com/health/616554.html

        I quote this article because it's a great illustration that we really are just beginning to understand the differences between men and women and to say the men and women are equals in everything is naive.
    • XopherMV, on 06/16/2008, -16/+11Men and women are both equally equipped to handle tech jobs. Period.

      The article states that most women drop out between the ages of 35 and 40, a time when women normally have children. The problem as I see it is that if women take a few years off to have kids, it can be nearly impossible to come back to work in the same position due to how quickly the field changes. So, women are faced with the choice of career or children, without the possibility of choosing both - and they are choosing to have children.
      • Ahnteis, on 06/17/2008, -2/+13Did you READ the article? Because that was addressed directly.
        • XopherMV, on 06/17/2008, -6/+1Yes, I read the article. Did you? The article did NOT state what I wrote. Read the article again. Read my comment again.
      • tyho, on 06/17/2008, -0/+5XopherMV I think you are mostly right.

        I agree that most women are equally qualified to handle tech jobs, but there is a reason that it appeals to guys that much more often. I have more women working for me than men, and my lead designer is a woman. It is rare in my engineering field however, as most of my competitors have few women.

        The main reason, as you stated, women leave tech careers, and all careers for that matter, is to start a family. I know I encouraged my wife to stay home when our kids were young. Important for their development and we could afford to on my wages.

        This is also linked to why women still get paid less for the same position in some cases. If you are seen as someone that will leave your career, employers are less likely to invest as much in you.

        *Ahnteis - Just because someone writes an article doesn't make it so.
        • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Dude, the article explicitly stated that most of the women leaving the field were NOT starting a family or diverting their focus to an existing one. Sure the article is not the absolute word, but at least it is based on study and analysis of the actual workforce, and not an opinion based on localized experience, as would be any statement you or I could make.

          I'll take the study over common assumption/belief any day.

          It shouldn't be that big a surprise that women who might want a family don't pick careers that require lifelong 80hr week dedication in the first place.
    • mustang460, on 06/16/2008, -13/+4men do score significantly higher in math sats than women, so I'm genetics has a lot to do with it
      • tehbored, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2That's not relevant. This is talking about the percentage of women who quit after working in the field, not the total percentage.
    • punchingjudy, on 06/16/2008, -5/+7Again, someone who didn't read the article.
      • wubblie, on 06/17/2008, -1/+3This woman makes a living lecturing companies about staffing issues. Do you think her explanation about women leaving is going to be the common sense "they are leaving to have families," or the more intriguing ("Hey, come give a lecture to my HR department about this!") theory that it is the workplace environment.
      • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1I read the article and I bring a different point and perspective to the biased report.
    • sjbradyusd, on 06/17/2008, -0/+8Biology is not a stereotype. Men and Women do think differently. I know that is not P.C. to say but it is true.
      • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1We really are just beginning to learn the difference between the brain structure of men and women: http://www.livescience.com/health/616554.html

        I quote this article because it's a great illustration that we really are just beginning to understand the differences between men and women and to say the men and women are equals in everything is naive.
    • celticchrys, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2... and as long as many men in these fields believe this, they will keep running the women off.
      • wynja, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1We really are just beginning to learn the difference between the brain structure of men and women: http://www.livescience.com/health/616554.html

        I quote this article because it's a great illustration that we really are just beginning to understand the differences between men and women and to say the men and women are equals in everything is naive.

        Facts are facts. I don't know too many women that enjoy sitting in a cubicle all day programming with no interaction with others. If you'd like we could discuss the rise of language among cave dwelling women while men stayed isolated or just within eyesight while on the hunt.
  • fluidfoundation, on 06/16/2008, -12/+74I hate to use this example, but we have gone through 3 women in my little group here who quit because they thought "the boys" were treating them different which couldnt be further from the truth. Each fit a profile, single mom, former higher position in a previous company coming back down, and workaholic.
    • HeWhoWas, on 06/16/2008, -20/+7That's ridiculous. Personally, I treat women differently than I do men but that's because it's the way I was brought up. I believe in equality, but I also believe that there are things that can, and can't, be done in front of a woman...at least not till you have had time to gauge her reactions! I work in a small in-house IT dept and if you were to throw a woman in here without at least cautioning my boss, he'd most likely have her running for the hills. Or she'd have him mopping the floors, either way.
      • fluidfoundation, on 06/17/2008, -3/+16There are different areas to treat women different them men in order to act like a gentleman and treat them like a lady.

        Business is not one of them. I will chew the hell out of one of my female coworkers when she ***** up, just like I would a male coworker. But I'll still hold the door open for her when I tell her to get the ***** out of my office.
      • dunderballer, on 06/17/2008, -0/+4It's not a matter of what can and can't be done or said in front of a woman it; is a matter of what does and does not belong in the workplace.
      • nycmac247, on 06/17/2008, -2/+3HeWhoWas
        - do you jerk off in front of guys?
        Seriously, though, you realize that your "treat her like a lady" ***** is just a sexist as "nice *****" - right?
        You also avoid mentioning that you celebrate Christmas ...when you're around Jews, right?
        Everything must be filtered for the abuse parent monitoring you from inside your own head???
    • HeWhoWas, on 06/16/2008, -19/+3That's ridiculous. Personally, I treat women differently than I do men but that's because it's the way I was brought up. I believe in equality, but I also believe that there are things that can, and can't, be done in front of a woman...at least not till you have had time to gauge her reactions! I work in a small in-house IT dept and if you were to throw a woman in here without at least cautioning my boss, he'd most likely have her running for the hills. Or she'd have him mopping the floors, either way.
    • mllawso, on 06/17/2008, -0/+20If I treated my female coworkers the same as my male coworkers, I'd be fired.
      • fluidfoundation, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Actually, thats an extremely good point. I find I treat a lot of the male coworkers with a less heavy hand (I couldnt find a non-gay way to put that) because I can't be more heavy handed with the women.
      • ganus, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1So true I don't even want to explain.
  • GorfTron, on 06/16/2008, -9/+156Tech jobs can be hard-core with terrible management and stress. Programmers are arrogant and abrasive. Why? Because they can be. As a man, I can seriously say that nobody mentored me or held my hand. It has been all hard knocks. I have to learn new stuff daily with no direction. I don't know if women like this or not. Also, the biggest pay increases were when I quit for more money. I don't think women like to do this. I will change companies in a second for a substantial raise. I don't care if the day care is worse or the drive is a little longer.
    • Raptor007, on 06/16/2008, -5/+36"Programmers are arrogant and abrasive."

      God, tell me about it! I was asking for help in a forum once when dabbing with a language I'd never used before, and I got torn apart by the "good form police" without actually getting my questions answered.

      We're not ALL that way though; at my university, my fellow CS-majors and I were all pretty nice. Maybe people are just a whole lot worse over the internet.
    • Kohaxx, on 06/16/2008, -0/+10My personal opinion is it has everything to do with the need to prove yourself in the technology field. Programmers feel the need to belittle each other's coding styles because so many are unique to the writer and so often what one person finds the "obvious" solution, another person won't see and go about it a way that is "obvious" to them. The alpha male/alpha female issue was a problem at my old workplace, and I can see why a lot of people in general would just get fed up and leave. Especially when the manager has been removed from the work and doesn't understand what you're doing but is making the promotion/hiring decisions.
    • FTWmovin2canada, on 06/16/2008, -1/+4-arrogant and abrasive programmer. very true.
    • anchora, on 06/17/2008, -2/+14I've always been a sort of unconventional woman, in both my interests and general personality. I honestly don't care if guys tell stupid sex jokes, I'll probably laugh with them. I've had several jobs that I left simply because I felt I was stagnating in them, and so far every job I've gotten has had higher pay than the last. (I'm a CS major.) I do think it's due to my basic difference from most women that I've succeeded thus far. I don't know if I had a point with this post, but I really hope this article isn't describing my future.
    • nycmac247, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2-
    • smashingmonkey, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2"Programmers are arrogant and abrasive"

      You spoke my thoughts on this one. It's kind of like this in any skills-based profession. I've been on the receiving end many times coming up as a technician and musician. Strong men and women shrug it off every day, whereas weak people look for an excuse and give up.

      But I do think that perhaps more men are hardwired for this sort of work. Notice I didn't say "men are more", but "more men are". That's not a judgement against women. I think women may be smarted than men on a whole, but the way men are hard-wired, we end up with more idiots, savants, and idiot savants. The latter two categories make for good technicians (and musicians).
      • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2This brings up a point that intrigues me. While I'll agree that programmers are abrasive and arrogant, I work in a small developer company that has plenty of arrogance and some abrasiveness here and there as well. But I rarely feel uncomfortable, belittled, or stressed out by this social environment. I just fit in to a degree and withdraw to my work for the remainder (there's certainly no respect for my views as a Christian and Creationist, and though I rarely make it a talking point myself, I hear derisive conversation regularly). Nobody totally "fits in" nor expects others around them to really do so either. As one colleague put it (and this is something I had thought to myself already), we all differ from normality by a similar radius, which makes us more wildly different from each other than from "normal" people. Yet I am comfortable in this environment, where the argument is being made that women would feel totally oppressed AND isolated. I have also had jobs in the service industry where I found the work stressful but felt totally in control and enjoyed the opportunity to act quickly and decisively in response to others' anger and frayed nerves.

        Conversely, I have had jobs in the sales industry, and in almost every environment, I absolutely dreaded every customer that crossed the threshold to my domain. At Electronics Boutique, a game shop, I only lasted 2 weeks despite being an avid gamer myself. Angry, disgruntled customers leave me internally upset for the remainder of a day and possibly the following day as well (in the more difficult/frustrating scenarios). It is in this environment that my wife excels (and I do mean excels). I would not last a day in her environment, and she could not function in mine, yet the source of oppression in both cases is just people...possibly even the SAME people, all acting in a manner consistent with their own personality, and sexism is (at least in these specific examples) a non-issue unless sex is actually a determinate factor in suitableness for work.

        The difference in these environments is not in the attitudes or nature of social interaction. Rather it is that in one I am required to, as my primary job responsibility, be socially open, approachable, and friendly, and in the other, I am free to do the complete opposite. I started writing this comment not knowing what to make of my own observations, but as laid out the details in an orderly manner, it becomes clear to me that previous comments about women's need for social connectivity and men's happiness without it are dead on as to why women don't stay in IT. Everyone gets verbally abused, sexually harassed (men and women alike), under appreciated, and left in limbo regarding career path, mentoring. The bottom line is that men are comfortable with that and women (in generality) are not.
    • theprogrammer, on 06/17/2008, -4/+8No matter how many ways this article spins the issue, the article is basically repeating the idea: "Women leave because they can't hack it." Any woman who believes that men do not face substantially the same types of political challenges in the tech workplace is delusional. This absurd notion that the males get a pass and automatically have a "support network of buddies" is pure fantasy. Programmers ARE obnoxious, by and large. I'm a man, and I have to deal with it too, and while it is certainly not easy, it doesn't have me running for the door. I'm sorry to put it this way, ladies, but you need to man up.
      • bradleyland, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2I laughed very, very hard at the notion of a male support group coddling me as I return from a failure. Men tend to cope with this kind of thing in two ways:

        * Being completely silent about it, all the while thinking less of you
        * Riding your ass about it for the next 30 years
  • LordSkywalker, on 06/16/2008, -6/+165Here's some *****: "Women would rather build a system that didn't crash in the first place, but men enjoy that diving catch and have a system of support that allows them to go out on a limb."

    • SymbolicChaos, on 06/16/2008, -1/+41I concur. Give me a system that works properly and efficiently for the next 10 years before it's out-of-date, and I'm a happy camper. If it doesn't, I'll try to change it, but only so far as I have to so I can be lazy again. The lazy gene is absurdly non-discriminatory, btw.
    • ElusiveByte, on 06/16/2008, -3/+16OMFG. I couldn't believe it when I read that.
    • MindTrigger, on 06/16/2008, -4/+30Well, I have worked in IT for 15 years now, and I get what they were trying to say. If you work in a tech environment that is not strict, then techs like to "try things". Things like nnconventional uses of software/hardware, messing around with untested code/apps in production environment, putting game servers on company equipment, and just general 'geeking the ***** out' for the fun of it, or to solve a one-off problem. It's called thinking outside the box.

      Stuff like this is what separates the true tech geniuses from the network admin janitors. To me the people who just play it safe are more like tech janitors. They keep the network running smooth, and they clean up the messes the end users ***** out onto their computers. The people who are taking chances and pushing the envelope are the ones who move tech forward.

      • BBKC, on 06/17/2008, -2/+12Janitors? I'm sorry, but my idea of a operational environment doesn't include "geeking the ***** out". It includes having standard defined operational processes, clearly defined escalation points; eg, a predictable environment.

        If you want to ***** around, go get a sandbox and play there; that's what they are called in real IT shops.
        • MindTrigger, on 06/17/2008, -0/+5Generally speaking IT has become a very "janitorial" job in that most of the time the systems run smoothly without your help, and techs are just around for emergencies, maintenance, upgrades, etc. The majority of the heavy lifting is done during the initial planning and build up. As we move forward into the future, there will be less and less need for people to babysit their networks.
        • diggn_it, on 06/17/2008, -2/+2Not sure why you're being dugg down. If I were MindTrigger's boss, I don't think he/she would have a job. IT's job is to keep things working, not try to push the limits of untested software. Be stupid/reckless on your own time, not when money's at stake.
        • MindTrigger, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3@diggn_it

          You are assuming I put my network at risk, and that it is down all the time. Actually, I have made/saved my company untold amounts of money by experimenting, and any risks we took were well known by the execs ahead of time. I think you are imagining carnage that simply never happened.
        • Ultrace, on 06/17/2008, -1/+0MindTrigger: Your execs approve of things like putting untested code out there in live production environments and putting game servers on company hardware? You have either an unhealthily open-minded or completely ignorant executive setup. There's a reason why most major successful companies have UAT and proving ground operations. You're only as good as your last project. I hope that untold amount of saved money is remembered when you DO cause some significant downtime due to some of this behvior.
        • pensivewombat, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3Works for google.
    • giskard88, on 06/17/2008, -1/+11This is the tech equivalent of if women ruled the world there'd be no wars. I was pretty much agreeing with the article up to this point.

      systems fall down because they're built with limited budgets in limited timeframes, and at some point the risk of a crash now and then is worth it to get the damn thing online. where that point is depends on context, but expecting to build a perfect system is not a virtue.
    • nycmac247, on 06/17/2008, -2/+5Yes, when we all have unlimited time and budget!!
      Fibre for everyone!! Double failover switches!!! Auto double tape backup - UNCOMPRESSED!!11!!!
    • UnforgedNoobah, on 06/17/2008, -1/+15This ***** makes no ***** sense, whoever came up with that statement has spent too long in an easy chair spewing out *****.

      Im a YOUNG LAZY male, and i would rather setup my parents network the right way the first time so i dont have to spend time trying to fix it.

      I know plenty of women who do ***** halfass...
    • geodebug, on 06/17/2008, -2/+3Oh man, I missed that one when I was reading the article. (crumples article and throws it in nearest recycling bin)
    • krazikamikaze, on 06/17/2008, -1/+14The whole article has this women are better than men so men conspire to drive women out of tech vibe, just look at the "hero" comment. It's like this person doesn't understand the super fast pace of technological innovation. If you spend five years perfecting a piece of software it'll be ancient history by the time you release it.

      "And if you're surrounded by men who don't appreciate you, that can be corrosive." Right, every male in tech is a sexist pig. Is this person trying to dispel stereotypes or encourage them? I really can't tell.

      "The third thing is that, for many women, the career path is all very mysterious because they don't have mentors or sponsors or folks looking out for them." Welcome to tech. It's a tough world for men and women. You need to know how to teach yourself if you're going to be successful.

      I've never said anything to discourage women from the tech field, but I get really annoyed when people who don't understand technology try to change the field because women generally don't enjoy it. Any sort of sexism is of course disgusting and has to stop, but tech is a tough, merit-based career. You don't get graded for effort and that's never going to change. Instead these people should be figuring out ways to encourage more women to enter tech by showing them the cool things you can do.

      Here's another article relating to this: http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-m ...

      The stuff about Title IX in tech was particularly disturbing.
    • ShadedNine, on 06/17/2008, -1/+6Oh dear. Focus groups and fictional "antigens"? The whole article reeks of confirmation bias and a complete lack of scientific merit, and that statement is probably the greatest evidence of that. Everything presented here appears to be entirely anecdotal.

      This is the difference between a study written from an economics standpoint (read: arts) instead of economic psychology (read: science).

      Here's a better written, better defended article on a paper belonging to the former group (that might even be specifically mentioning this article as being innacurate when properly tested): http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2 ...
      • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -1/+1I think you're discrediting the article mistakenly. The one you post addresses why women don't GO into IT/science fields, and this article addresses why women don't STAY in those fields. It shouldn't be a surprise that the conclusions are totally different.

        Going into a field in the first place implies presence of interest and desire. Why then would the subsequent lack thereof be so prominent a reason for turning around and leaving? I rather think the article makes some insightful and valuable statements, even if mixed with some absurd ones such as this. As if I wouldn't LOVE to develop a system that would never fail for 10 years or become a mess by steady maintenance for changing requirements and sloppy or poorly planned upgrades. It is the business and leadership driving tech that also breaks it.
    • golfe, on 06/17/2008, -1/+5Any credibility that this article/author had was simply thrown to the wind with such an asinine statement. Laughable, really.

      Oh, and how about some sources for all these statistics and statements??
    • djepik, on 06/17/2008, -2/+1Translates to "women are WAY smarter than men". I thought we were talking "EQUALity" here
  • socoolisme, on 06/16/2008, -57/+52The reason is that they're women.
    • JohnnyThunders, on 06/17/2008, -2/+10...And they're not giving you any attention, apparently.
    • Swateke, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2That's probably true. But that doesn't make his statement less true. The trick of charming a woman is lying to her ;). That or actually being convinced of fallacies.
  • chrispix, on 06/16/2008, -32/+27Babies!
    • CMuffa, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Extactly. The become baby factories as God intended.
  • insurgente, on 06/16/2008, -26/+4Capitalist society is sexist, that's the reason.
    • SymbolicChaos, on 06/16/2008, -2/+5I've never read about or encountered a society that didn't have to deal with sexism, not to mention have a past deeply rooted in it. Generally, the better technologically-developed countries in the world tend to be LESS sexist.

      I've also never encountered a society that weren't just capitalists hiding under a wacky guise. The goal for those involved in government is always money and power. Always.
      • insurgente, on 06/16/2008, -5/+2Technological advancement has nothing to do with a society being "less sexist". Sexism in society is inherited from the fact that since even before the industrial revolution and the rise of industrial capitalism, the world was run by (rich) men, in the interest of (rich) men. It goes as far back as to the agricultural revolution 10.000 years ago and the rise of small-scale industry (within the ecological boundaries of the time), where women and children were more or less forced to work in the textile industry, for more or less no pay.

        The fact that some societies are "less sexist", and the US is certainly not one of them, has much more to do with social development and less to do with technological advancement.
        • SymbolicChaos, on 06/16/2008, -1/+3Social and technological development walk hand in hand. And the US certainly IS one of the less sexist countries of the world. This isn't me defending my country out of silly pride or some such *****. I could care less. It's just my opinion from personal research.
        • insurgente, on 06/17/2008, -2/+3@ SymbolicChaos:

          Social and technological development are barely related. China was highly technologically advanced (it had an at least 4 times more productive agriculture than Europe, and an unmeasurably more productive textile industry, as Europe barely had any at all) between 1500 and 1800 or so, yet not very socially advanced (few individual rights and so on).

          Europe on the other hand was more or less technologically retarded (it had almost no industry at all until the industrial revolution of 1750-1850), while it had made some social development (the Fundamental Laws of England, etc).

          The US is, once again, not one of the "less sexist" (hate the term, by the way) nations in the world. Women have, on average, roughly 25% lower wages than men (U.S. Census Bureau, Current Population Survey, 2007 Annual Social and Economic Supplement). Only 16.3% of the members of the United States House of Representatives are women, and only 16% of the United States Senate (http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/Facts/Officeholders/co ... ). Yet still, women account for approximately 50% of the population of the United States. Compared to other western nations, the US is probably one of the most sexist.
    • vault, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2shut it, commie.
  • kungfuboi, on 06/16/2008, -63/+77Back to the kitchen
    • anchora, on 06/17/2008, -6/+7Can I program in there? Besides, I only know how to make grilled cheese and ramen noodles.
    • daviddiaz, on 06/17/2008, -11/+6bitch make me a sandwich!
    • shovelihave, on 06/17/2008, -3/+1/b/tard
    • UltX, on 06/17/2008, -4/+5C = Cooking
      C++ = Cook more
      CSP = Cook Some Pie
    • chuckDontSurf, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Too obvious.
    • eldridgea, on 06/17/2008, -3/+6Statements like that are why.
      • sciz, on 06/17/2008, -2/+5I second.

        The fact that the above statement has approval on here on Digg, notwithstanding its cliché and uncreative nature, is a kind of case in point for the article.
    • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -2/+1Who the ***** diggs this?
    • bradleyland, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Make a joke that offends the male sensibility (if there is one) and all the guys stand around and laugh. Make a joke that offends the female sensibility and you'll be lucky to make it out alive.
  • Checkerd, on 06/16/2008, -10/+102http://xkcd.com/385/
    • SirTheGuy, on 06/16/2008, -1/+15A very accurate analogy
    • happygodavid, on 06/16/2008, -1/+7Based on some of these comments, I'm betting you're one of the few people on Digg who "gets it". Hard not to get angry over bigotry and ignorance, huh? Great job with that post.
      • jawagas, on 06/17/2008, -0/+4Ya Checkerd, with a catchy username and a humorous link I think you've straightened up a good sum of the opinion fest being held today.
    • kd420, on 06/16/2008, -1/+10Is it bad that I knew which xkcd was coming without even looking at it lol
    • Acglaphotis, on 06/16/2008, -2/+19There is an xkcd for every occasion!
      • Jayso89, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3Hallmark will try to buy him out soon!
  • FUR10N, on 06/16/2008, -19/+8FTA: basically women can't hack it (jk)
  • The0, on 06/16/2008, -17/+4Probably too much "***** of GTFO!"
  • nokdeez, on 06/16/2008, -6/+9we reckon its also difficult to believe anyone reckoning about science and sex.
  • Kikinou, on 06/16/2008, -19/+9because at heart what women really want is a family and stuff, these career delusions only last till their biological clock is close to running out.
    • sg1fan, on 06/16/2008, -2/+11News flash: you can have both. I am a developer and had 2 kids while I worked! Nice thing about software development is that you can contract, from home, if you find the right balance and the company is willing to work with you that way. I didnt have to give up anything.

      Next time, comment on a subject you know something about.
      • willywong, on 06/16/2008, -8/+3Can I touch ur boobs?
      • sg1fan, on 06/17/2008, -2/+6@willy: ha ha! No, but thanks for the offer. I dugg you up.
        • Paulish, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Don't feed the trolls. :P
        • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2You're a badass, with more patience and bigger proverbial 'stones' than me to laugh and digg him up.

          I'm sure your children are growing up in an awesome environment. My mom worked a full-time job while going to college while I was growing up, and she's a teacher with her master's degree soon moving on to opening her own business. I'm glad I had such an awesome, strong mom in that aspect and I know your children will appreciate it; it's certainly my motivation for learning more and going farther in life. I need to tell her that tomorrow. :O
        • electrosheep, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2But yet he's dugg down! ;)
        • sg1fan, on 06/18/2008, -0/+1@eric: I would like to think my kids are in a great environment. they know that I go to work every day and I will see them later. And now I have the flexibility to stay home and work.

          Your mom sounds awesome!
    • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -2/+2You don't have to go past Psychology 101 in college to learn that, across cultures, the roles of men and women in society differ. In many cultures, WOMEN go out and do the work while men stay home and raise the kids (John Lennon-style!)

      Our culture has, traditionally, been that of a woman's place being the kitchen and bedroom. Our culture has also, traditionally, been highly racist and dependent on cheap/slave labor. I'm happy to see our culture moving away from these first two things (unfortunately not the third), and I can understand why remnants of these old days still exist, but that doesn't stop them from pissing me off.
  • cambob76, on 06/16/2008, -45/+34There are pies to be baked? seriously though, from article:"Boo hoo sexism, blah blah mean men." Maybe these women should have thought about this before they sucked at doing a man's job.
    • Shiftyeyedgoat, on 06/16/2008, -9/+15Though this comment is obscenely misogynistic, he's right. The entire article can be summed up in that sentence.
      • sg1fan, on 06/16/2008, -5/+13Unfortunately you have a point. I dont get a long with other women much because of the "boo hoo, poor me, mean men" attitude that some seem to exude. I had one female friend ask me if I could train her to be my 'assistant' because she saw the flexibility in hours and good pay that I have as a developer. Like it would be that easy. Many dont seem to realize its a lot of hard work.
    • prphcygrl, on 06/17/2008, -3/+8Give me a break. A man's job? As a woman in the tech field I've dealt with more than a few cocky men who thought they knew more than me. You know what? Many of them were let go. I'm in a senior position now.
      • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Right on.
      • HonoredMule, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2Congratulations (intended sincerely).

        There generally tends to be a correlation between sexism and incompetence (which applies to women as well). What bothers me the most isn't the men or women who fail in the IT industry, but the (mostly) men who survive and shouldn't. It is they that make my life miserable.
  • robocop1, on 06/16/2008, -16/+8What about hermaphrodites?!
    • Conrey, on 06/16/2008, -1/+9they have stable jobs in freak shows and a small niche of pornography, they don't need technology careers.
      • robocop1, on 06/16/2008, -4/+5That's so sexist of you to say.
      • nycmac247, on 06/17/2008, -2/+2you son of a bitch - these people can use their "special" organs to find bottlenecks in LAN topologies!!!
        Didn't you know that!!?!?!?!??!
        Also, with a special diet their farts can resolve DNS issues!!111!
        (and don't even get me started on how the NRO / NSA is using them to switch to IP6!!!!)
        • specialK16, on 06/17/2008, -0/+2Was that supposed to be funny in any way?
    • Browzer, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1They decide they only want to work part-time.
    • HamNCheese, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1They work double shifts. DOH!
  • WomensUnderwear, on 06/16/2008, -11/+5IT geeks will die virgins
  • Snap65, on 06/16/2008, -17/+23Back in college my professor had to tell us that we could no longer make fun of or make derogatory remarks against women because the first girl had just signed up for our class. She didn't last long.

    BTW - This happened in 2004 in one of my Electronics class.
    • sg1fan, on 06/16/2008, -7/+7You do need to develop a bit of a thick skin. I've heard the odd comment like that. Most were just in jest, or good fun. I learned to roll with it, and it doesn't even bother me anymore. If a woman is going to go cry to a teacher about stuff like this, then they dont belong in that field.
    • AngelBunny, on 06/17/2008, -3/+4in high school i was the only female in a tech class and the teacher actually made sexist jokes in the class. lets just say, i didn't stick around long.
      • vuke69, on 06/17/2008, -2/+5"...I didn't stick around long."

        Why the ***** not?

        If you think an occasional off color joke is bad, you should hear how we talk to each other when it is just the "guys." We are downright brutal towards each other.

        Cluestick: It's a male dominated field, and that's how males bond. Get over it, or GTFO.
    • tehbored, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3I didn't have any girls in my electronics class in high school, and my school was generally very supportive of women in science and tech.
    • jaythree9, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2let me guess: you made the jokes anyway instead of trying to get along. there's way to step beyond the chaff
  • schneidafunk, on 06/16/2008, -32/+53If you can't take the heat, get into the kitchen.
    • eldogg, on 06/16/2008, -22/+2Dude that doesn't make any sense. Think about it "If you can't take the heat, get into the kitchen." where there are ovens and microwaves and toasters and other hot things! Good one!
      • schneidafunk, on 06/16/2008, -2/+4dude, it was a joke... actually I'm a programmer and the (few) women I've worked with have been the best programmers on our team.
        • Ahnteis, on 06/17/2008, -4/+1I'm pretty sure his was a joke too. Not a good one, but he did at least get YOUR joke.
      • dudefaceguyman, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2....


        WOOSH
      • DragonForce4, on 06/17/2008, -1/+1please tell me you forgot the /sarcasm at the end
    • skcoder, on 06/16/2008, -2/+17Terrible...but hilarious.
  • geneticlone, on 06/16/2008, -4/+24Seriously, I wish it wasn't the case. I would love to see more women around the engineering and IT jobs. I am sure many men would agree, and frankly I would never discourage them from their ambitions. However, since the vast majority of humans in these fields are men I can see why they would discouraged to continue on with such jobs.
  • d38as3r, on 06/16/2008, -18/+1Apparently, (AND I'M JUST GUESSING HERE) these ladies aren't privy to the many forms of birth control that are available on the market today, things ranging from the ever popular "pulling out!" to tubal ligation, If it weren't for the age demographic i would make some other smart ass-ed comment I'm sure but given the ages, I know I'm right, so BOO EFF-IN HOOO. Hate me and I grow stronger : P
  • Bronowyn, on 06/16/2008, -5/+54As a women in a tech (IT) field, I just ignore the off-color jokes that the others in my department joke about. Because I'm in a client-facing position, I don't feel the isolation as much, but I definitely feel like I'm the odd man out on my team, as if they are all talking about strategies that I'm not aware of, paranoia about the "boys club" that seems to exist in IT especially. I have actually done better in teams that are more the "geeky" IT groups, rather than the type of men I'm working with now.

    I will say that managers in IT in general suck. No people skills, generally humongous JERKS. I know my boss is surely one of the bad bosses, but I've encountered either jerky bosses, sexual harassment bosses, or socially inept bosses throughout my IT career. I hope I encounter another boss in the future that don't fit the first two I think that the boss thing alone is the only reason why I might leave this career path. But I'm so good at it, I can't see me wasting my skills.
    • Kohaxx, on 06/16/2008, -2/+15As an IT guy, I never understood the need for off-color jokes, we're not allowed to make racist jokes so why make sexist jokes?
      • schneidafunk, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1off-color jokes are racist... off-gender jokes are sexist. :)
    • Bronowyn, on 06/16/2008, -1/+7I do many times. Like I said, it's more the management that bothers me in IT.
    • rapunzell, on 06/16/2008, -4/+1If not wasting your skills is the best reason you have to stay, eventually something will trump that reason. 10 years from now you'll be out of the field and a part of the statistic this article is talking about.

      • Bronowyn, on 06/16/2008, -0/+4I also have a highly competitive nature. And a little bit of an anarchist thrown in for good measure... so I think I'll last. My hubs is in tech, too, he actually is leaving to go to a bus dev field...

        I think outsourcing will be more likely as an end to my career at this moment than my choices. I'm hoping to find me a more geeky IT crowd, I always fit in with them. :)
    • minorgods, on 06/16/2008, -3/+4I think the typical geek is hard-wired into not wanting to see a female that can take him in a coding contest. smart chicks are scary. I personally don't have this issue, as my uber-ness crosses gender boundaries. (wait, that sounded weird)

      I have always wondered that if in the back of the mind of an intellectual male, his instinct to provide for females kicks in but his evolved brain makes it come out as elementary school playground tactics.

      oh, and...
      giggity
    • sg1fan, on 06/16/2008, -1/+4I think I lucked out when it comes to working environments. I hear lots of jokes but they don't bother me and I will laugh at them. Maybe it's because I don't get along with many women. They seem to be into too many frivolous or 'fluff' things that I couldn't care less about.

      Sorry to hear about your boss tho.
      • Bronowyn, on 06/16/2008, -0/+5Perhaps that's why women like you and me do well in these fields. I always hung out with guys, and I would rather talk about the subtext of lost than why Brangelina is moving to France, and what they wore at the Oscars. :)
        • jlauten, on 06/17/2008, -1/+4I'm female. I'm in IT. I've had no real big issues -- small ones, sure, but no biggie. I had mostly male friends growing up, though mostly female friends now (I think as a response to all the testosterone at work). So maybe the environment you're raised in has something to do with it? Not working with jerks probably helps.

          It does get odd sometimes when you're the only female in the room and people refer to the group as 'gentlemen'. I sometimes talk to the person on a break, to politely point out that there is a female in the 'gentlemen', but sometimes I don't bother, depends on their attitude and my mood.

          The guys I work with are pretty good, and I don't get offended easily. For a while they had taken to vocally shouting out numbers during the course of the day, which was a rating for the women who were passing by the window, they'd call out the 'high rating' women for the other guy to check out. I'm sure our (remote) HR department would have a cow, but I just rolled my eyes. Men, sheesh!

          Plus, sometimes it's funny to go into their cubes and point out the window and say something like, "Wow, look at the butt on that guy, there's an 8!" Or, "Hey, check out his package! What would you rank him?" The perpetrators were all hetereosexual and, though not overly sensitive, those sorts of direct comments usually shut them up for a day or two. :-)
      • sg1fan, on 06/17/2008, -1/+4My sentiments exactly. I love hockey and UFC and have always preferred to hang out with guys since college. I have hung out with my guy friend's girlfriends, and end up sitting there silent for hours... unsure how to contribute.

        Ive seen a few women hired over the years, and they just couldn't cut it. Maybe they didn't know what they were getting into? Oh well.
    • punchingjudy, on 06/17/2008, -1/+4As a "women"? What is with people misusing "women" for "woman" today? Four times in the last two hours, and that's on three mass-trafficked sites.
    • norcalscan, on 06/17/2008, -2/+6You can laugh/ignore it for so long. I liken it to you being a bucket and the boss' ***** is pouring in. There is a hole in the bucket that depending on how well you take it, lets 99% of the ***** back out or maybe 85% back out. After a few years, the bucket eventually fills up.

      It took me 9 years before my bucket filled up. No warning or anything. Just somewhat woke up one morning and said this sucks. I left a great team (***** boss) and promoted into a much better position elsewhere. My mental and physical health changed overnight.
      Look up the book "No ***** Rule" in amazon.
    • BedPost, on 06/17/2008, -3/+2Client-facing position? We know what you mean by that ;-).
    • 8270369, on 06/17/2008, -4/+4Gimme a break. In a LOT of offices, all, and I mean ALL the "off color" crap is coming out of the mouths of white middle class middle aged women. Period. And yeah, some times it's creepy as hell, feels threatening, maybe even a little bit violent, but we gotta deal with it.

      You people, it's like you're in some kind of time machine back to 1976. Reading women gripe about how hard done by they are cause all those men at the office treat them wrong -- Christ, I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. Snap out of it! What planet are you living on? Cause clearly it ain't Earth.
      • Testiculese, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1I have to agree. I've contracted to dozens of places and the women are just as off-color as the men. Where I'm working now is great 'cause the women think the jokes are funny, and make their own about us guys. It's completely 50-50.

        I encourage women in the IT field. They are easier to deal with than the men, usually. No ego to fight around.
        • 8270369, on 06/17/2008, -0/+0That is a brutal misconception. Of course women have egos. Men tend more to wear their egos on their sleeves but hide their hearts, women wear their hearts on their sleeves but hide their egos. Crass generalization, yes, but I think for the most part it's true.
        • Testiculese, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1I know they have egos. Everyone has one, but a woman's is nowhere near the size as a man's, and not nearly as obnoxious. You don't have to fight a woman's ego, they're not going out of their way to alpha status themselves, posture, etc.
    • Kratos76, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3No, I think it's just that all of us male geeks are just so intimidated by the Female geeks, we either end up scaring them away or pissing them off by accident. We're dumbasses.
      • 8270369, on 06/17/2008, -0/+0Um... what? That seems kinda patronizing. And it's not true. I'm no more intimidated by a male jerk than a female jerk. A jerk's a jerk.
    • arctic, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2That's what she sa... nvm sorry, bad timing I suppose!

      < /logout >
  • ObamaWins08, on 06/16/2008, -16/+1To make my coffee?
  • orlyfactor, on 06/16/2008, -6/+95FTA: "A woman cannot survive a failure." A bunch of my ex's are still alive. What gives?
  • WatchDragon, on 06/16/2008, -27/+27Computers are not compassionate and caring, and don't like to cuddle after long coding sessions.
  • RevoltPuppy, on 06/16/2008, -3/+102Gee, the technology sector is hostile to women? We certainly don't see that here on Digg.
    • Ultrace, on 06/17/2008, -1/+2Considering how many guys I see accused of having never laid eyes on a woman, I can't say the technology sector is too friendly to men sometimes either. ;)
    • kirado4, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1dude only on sexist woman.. who blatantly continue to stereotype all men on the planet based on outdated attitude from past centuries.. I mean it's not like men ever get treated in a sexist manner by women or the government of the police or teachers or the internet or or or.. [sarcasm for the retards]
  • Kenzan, on 06/16/2008, -9/+46So according to the article, women can't hack it, so they just give up and become baby factories.
    I call shenanigans.
    • mastersquirrel3, on 06/17/2008, -1/+5Dugg for the use of the word shenanigans.
  • nkleffman, on 06/16/2008, -22/+11Because a woman's brain isn't as big as a man's brain, it's science.
    • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1You know who had huge brains, bigger than any human's? The neanderthal.
  • l815, on 06/16/2008, -11/+34From my experience, many of those accusations are not true. I admit there are some pretty pig headed guys out there, but you can't blame the entire male populous for half a breeds egotistical nuisance.

    In my college courses, not many women are in, if any. It's not because they are harassed, it's because they believed it would bring them a good job, later for them to find out it bores them. (only from my experience).

    Now the other women who enjoy their job as a techie, a piece of advice from the male genus. Deal with it.
    Men are pig heads to each other all the time. Don't think you are any different. And don't boast to me how friendly women can be when acquainted with their female comrades. They can be just as hard as a man.

    So to close off this little rant, we are all man per-say. If you wanted opportunities, you've been offered. If you can't deal with the environment, leave and find another, or learn to suck it up.

    I don't mean to be rude, but it had to be said.
    • pacookie, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1The article wasn't talking about specific men being horrible, just a general environment. In physics there was definitely a streak of competition that drove me away from it, while the rest of my non-tech classes for the most part had a much better feeling. It doesn't matter at the end of the day if i enjoy what i do, 90 % of it is going to be how i am treated and if i feel alone, isolated and unsupported. Maybe guys can deal with that better, but that would make me quit. I don't know why i haven't quit digg yet tho... damn
    • MouseworksPC, on 06/17/2008, -2/+3It's "per se" not "per-say". I also don't mean to be rude, but if you're going to be up on that high horse, it's better to seem educated.
    • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -1/+1They are dealing with it, but some girls and guys are asking some men to...you know...evolve.
    • dsmgirl, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1I'm a woman in the IT field and I've never had an issue with harassment or IT culture. I went into it knowing it was male-dominated and that didn't bother me 'cause I'm pretty much a tomboy. But, I'd be more offended if a team would stop telling jokes and change their culture when I came on board than if they continued it!

      Women need to learn to deal with it. There's a culture that comes along with the "glory" of IT work. If you think you're going to change it you're likely to cause problems. If you can embrace it you'll have fun joining in and you'll find it's all good-natured in the end.

      Summary: I don't see what the big deal is? If you don't fit in with the culture that comes with your job, it's not for you and you SHOULD move on!
    • el_taco, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1"deal with the environment, leave and find another, or learn to suck it up. "

      hehe... you said suck it.
  • lazersailer, on 06/16/2008, -13/+82It's ridiculous for women to complain about being treated unequally but when men treat them as they would any other man turn around and claim sexual harassment.

    • Bronowyn, on 06/16/2008, -14/+4Gosh, I didn't realize that guys joked around by saying, "if you wore a skirt you'd get even better reviews". Weird way for guys to joke around. I guess maybe in Scotland they do.
      • Acglaphotis, on 06/17/2008, -1/+7Treat them, not tell the exact same jokes.
        • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -2/+1So "nice *****" is okay, because I say "nice dick" all the time. Score.
      • unorginalityftw, on 06/17/2008, -1/+9Actually... that sounds about right. Not female gender specific such as that, but on the same level of assery all in all really.

        You may think it is sexist since it has been turned to be gender specific and it's coming from a man, but they say the same things to other guys, it's just male gender specific.

        Deal with it?
      • Ahnteis, on 06/17/2008, -0/+6Um... I'd think it would be obvious they would instead call each other "Ghey", or make jokes about "micropenis", etc. They don't use the exact same WORDS, but believe me -- guys are definitely abusive in their joking in a similar manner.
      • J3Holaday, on 06/17/2008, -3/+1Actually my friends and I hit on each other constantly as a joke.
      • Condemned, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Guys don't wear skirts, silly!
    • sg1fan, on 06/16/2008, -7/+34Agree. Women are too sensitive and I think many of them realize that they can cry 'harassment' and get someone else into trouble or be handed a promotion because of it... instead of just trying to work hard and do their job. And before someone diggs me down: I am a woman, a software developer for 11 years now. I love it. I thought about changing jobs, but not leave the field.
      • Paulish, on 06/17/2008, -0/+4I think a lot of it is just misunderstanding. I remember hearing a story about some guy that claimed sexual harrasment because his femal boss hugged him a lot. The boss said it was her way of celebrating successes. I believe her. I am really sensitive about my personal space, I get pretty uncomfortable when people enter it. Not to be stereotypical or anything, but in general girls have been more touchy feely. It has made me uncomfortable at times, but I understand that it is how some people communicate. They aren't trying to make my uncomfortable by invading my personal space, they are just communicating in the way they know how. When I understand that, it is much easier to get along.

        IMO it can be fixed with better communication.
        • bagelmaster, on 06/17/2008, -0/+10I wish a girl would invade my personal bubble. *sigh*
    • Avolin, on 06/17/2008, -3/+7Sounds like someone is not only battling their sexism, but their personality in general!
    • captainbeah, on 06/17/2008, -4/+8I don't think that's so ridiculous. Women want to be respected, they don't want to be treated like another guy. Gender equality isn't about perfectly equivalent relationships between people of different genders, it's about everybody getting the same amount of respect.
      • tehbored, on 06/17/2008, -3/+8Well, in that case, it sounds like women want more respect than men.
        • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3I wouldn't say so, but I'm sure you wouldn't suffer from obliging.
    • AngelBunny, on 06/17/2008, -5/+3i didn't realize men grab your ass all the time.
    • tehbored, on 06/17/2008, -6/+4Yeah, guys make pretty much the same jokes and ***** to each other, women are just more sensitive to it.
    • ssjbriguy, on 06/17/2008, -3/+4"Why there will never be absolute gender equality is because of the inherent contradictions between equality and liberty. For example, if a guy wanted to say a joke about women at work, or hung pornography in the work place, it would make the women work in an environment that may seem hostile to them...If a woman wants to be treated equally in the work place, then she shouldn't be offended at what guys usually talk about. I think it's unreasonable for all women to be content with whatever people do at work, and for guys to go out of their way to change their lifestyles to conform to what's politically correct. It's impossible to live your life without being offended at something."--Maddox

      http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=fe ...
      • ericmerrill, on 06/17/2008, -3/+1According to that logic there will always be racism, because making a joke about (race here) would make (race here) uncomfortable in the workplace and it GOES AGAINST OUR LIBERTAY to just shut the ***** up and not make the joke. Seriously.
  • phybere, on 06/16/2008, -5/+9The reason in the article makes sense... working with the group of programmers that I do, I can't imagine a a female programmer working with them. Hell, even the women on the sales/design team are scared of them.
    • sjbdallas, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1The article might make some sense but the numbers they throw out doesn't really add up. If 41% of the qualified people are women, then how does the second issue (isolation) work out? If they're the only woman on the team or in a site then where are the rest that make up that 41%
      Also, isn't it a little demeaning to say that women can cope with failure or they can't feel their way up a career ladder? Plenty of people make it through their careers w/out any mentors so why can't women?
  • synik, on 06/16/2008, -20/+35Whine whine whine. The article claims it is sexism, women not being able to cope with failure, and long hours.

    Sounds like a big cop out to me.
  • AllyOfReason, on 06/16/2008, -8/+53FTA: "...condescending attitudes, lots of off-color jokes, sexual innuendo"

    So, tell me then, what job sector does this not happen in?
    • Acglaphotis, on 06/17/2008, -1/+6Prostitution.
    • mnemy, on 06/17/2008, -3/+6And what sector do the men not do that to eachother as well? I'm actually in a very mature company right now where everyone is professional. While the work is much better (way better organized), I miss having the guys my age to throw a crude insult at, or ricochet a ping pong off of to liven things up.

      Do you want equality or to be treated like a porcelain doll?
    • hackiavelli, on 06/17/2008, -2/+3No kidding. I'm the only male in an otherwise all-female workplace and I can tell you the ladies can be complete hound dogs some days.
    • el_taco, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1Child care
  • lofispy, on 06/16/2008, -4/+29Hate to say it, but that's just how it is for everybody...man or women. Ya, geeks and techheads can be especially abrasive, but again, that's just how it is for everybody. Equality is a two-way street...
  • lead2thehead, on 06/16/2008, -24/+14They turn 30 and get baby fever. It happens to ALL women.
    • bronxelf, on 06/17/2008, -3/+3 Approximately 22.5% of the female population would be happy to disagree with you. There's a whole lot of women out there who have never had the slightest interest in having children.
      • lead2thehead, on 06/17/2008, -3/+4Pulling statistics out of our asses today, are we?
        • bronxelf, on 06/18/2008, -0/+1No, in fact I didn't(as opposed to you, who *definitely* did.). You can find that one from various childfree website sources. Go look. I think this one came from No Kidding, actually. It's been a while since I had to look that data up, but I'm pretty sure that's the source.

      • Testiculese, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1WHERE ARE THEY? I can't find one who doesn't insert "I want a baby" within the first 15 minutes of the date.
        • bronxelf, on 06/18/2008, -0/+2Try childfree meetups and sites like No Kidding. I've heard they do well matching folks who don't want children up very well.

        • Testiculese, on 06/18/2008, -0/+1Googled, thanks.
    • aethelberga, on 06/17/2008, -1/+4Replace 'all' with 'most' and I'm happy to agree with you. It never happened to me, but I'm one of the lucky ones. I've seen too many of my intelligent, sensible friends fall prey to their ovaries.
      • lead2thehead, on 06/17/2008, -1/+0How old are you? Because every woman in her early 20s says that and then completely reverses her position by age 30.
        • MouseworksPC, on 06/17/2008, -1/+1Hmm, I love all the "facts" about how women work. I had all my children by 31 and worked through it all and still working now. I own a computer store and still spend lots of time with the kids. No customers suffer because of my ovaries, and none of my children suffer because of my career. I knew at 22 that I wanted children with my husband, so we started as soon as we got married and have no regrets.
  • superkendall, on 06/16/2008, -4/+17I've worked in a lot of different environments from large companies to small, and I just don't see the attitude described in the article of people thinking women are inferior.

    Now off color remarks and such, I'll grant you that happens all the time and there's no real good solution to that. But if women can get over being offended by off the cuff remarks males sometimes make, there's no reason they cannot be well respected at work - when the do good work, just like anyone else.
    • Trichomonas, on 06/16/2008, -5/+7"if women can get over being offended by off the cuff remarks males sometimes make, there's no reason they cannot be well respected at work"
      Just a thought: why should they have to "get over being offended" instead of having the comments cease? If you make racial remarks, should the other person also "get over being offended"?

      I'm a male and I've never made off-colored remarks within ear-shot of another woman while at work (or any other professional environment). I don't see why others can't do the same.

      Also, just for the record, the only reason attitudes like this frustrate me is because I have sisters and would hate to see any one of them disrespected in such a manner. I also have to concede that the article was written in a biased way.
    • 1337chic, on 06/16/2008, -0/+8I agree with that whole-heartedly, but as the only woman in my team I tend the take the brunt of the remarks and jokes. It doesn't bother me now, and I laugh at it just as much as the guys do. However, I could see how 15 years of that could get old. Imagine if one of the guys in your group ALWAYS got the jokes directed at them his whole career; he might consider a career change after awhile.
  • nardokid, on 06/16/2008, -5/+49"Women would rather build a system that didn't crash in the first place, but men enjoy that diving catch and have a system of support that allows them to go out on a limb."

    And men would rather not build a system that didn't crash in the first place because they can take a chance to save it later? *****.
  • skcoder, on 06/16/2008, -7/+1So, women are leaving technology careers because of the machoism and the "women can't handle technology" attitude prevalent in the field. The cause of this attitude is that there isn't women in technology careers. Sounds like a downward spiral to me!

    Good thing I'm majoring in math and not technology, lol. Have fun in your sausagefest afterwork parties, suckers.
    • blackhaze, on 06/16/2008, -1/+4Damn it! Because we all know math gets all the hot babes.. Mine might be Sausagefest Inc but at least it's not Ambigous Inc and who the hell tries to get laid at their company parties? Professional much?
    • joot2112, on 06/16/2008, -0/+2Are you saying there are a lot of female math majors at your school? That would be encouraging. Or maybe you meant you're planning to become a teacher?
  • Cretius0, on 06/16/2008, -11/+6These statistics are disturbing, its shows how women are hard-wired and also how males are.
    Males consistently need to prove dominance by minimizing the other genders accomplishments. Females need to struggle not to play the game and win in the system but to actually wade through all of the Sh*t that gets thrown at them.

    A perfect citation of it was when the editor stated that women could not survive failure but males could.

    good day
    • skcoder, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1You're right. But at the same time, women prefer men who are successful and rich. More so than men prefer women that way, at least. We all know sex is a pretty strong motivator for why people work hard and be successful. So perhaps its the woman's fault for pushing this "need to prove dominance" in males afterall?

      I'm not saying its either sex fault, but rather pointing out the hypocritical nature of women wanting dominant men then getting upset when these dominant men treat them like ***** in the work place.
  • JCPahl, on 06/16/2008, -12/+39I love how this article started with the mandatory opening paragraph about how smart and glorious women are. OF COURSE the only reason a women would quit a tech job would be all the evil men keeping her down! Is there any problem for which evil men are *not* responsible? Give me a break.
    • 1337chic, on 06/16/2008, -1/+9Most of the article focused on how the lack of women in the work force is a cyclical problem that wears women down and eventually forces them out. Also, in a female dominated field there would be traits that we have in groups that would drive men out of it too. It is just a fact of genders in their groups.
  • 1337chic, on 06/16/2008, -1/+13There are a lot of groups out there that women can get involved with to find mentors if they choose to. I was heavily involved with the Women in Engineering groups in college, and have continued that involvement now that I've taken the a job as a Software Engineer.

    There might be more men in IT than women, but there are ways of finding support systems. If you live in a sizable city, start a peer group in the city that meets once a month (an ACM-W chapter would be perfect). The mentor thing is huge, and having groups like ACM-W really helps beat this. If you don't live in a big enough city, these groups have conferences across the country multiple times a year, or you could get involved with a local college with CS as a major and be a mentor yourself. I have helped out with teaching my girls in my local community to use computers at community centers. Another good option is MentorNet (http://www.mentornet.net/).

    Now if we could just get more of those guys some women so they weren't so damn horny all the time ;) I'm doing my part guys; I'm dating a fellow programmer.
  • Zorkon, on 06/16/2008, -1/+53My girlfriend comes from a technical family, has a degree in chemistry and went back to school to do a 3 year compsci program. Now that she's working in computers & tech, I've noticed that she is sometimes her own worst enemy.

    I'm amazed at how she can *analyze* every little thing that happens in her workday. When she comes home in the evening, she replays the entire workday in her head, and stresses about things that were said/done, or not said/done, or should have been said/done. Every day. What would seem like an insignificant watercooler conversation to me, takes on multiple dimensions of importance and nuance to her.

    I don't know if this behaviour is particular to her, or if it's a common trait amongst women in IT. If so, I can see why the dropout rate is so high. I know that I couldn't work like that without burning out. At some point you need to shut off the day job and enjoy your life.
    • 1337chic, on 06/16/2008, -1/+13Hun, that isn't women in IT, that is women everywhere. They did that when I worked at a grocery store in high school. I wanted to grab them and shake them and say "The only advantage to a minimum wage job is you shouldn't take it home!"

      Men do it to a certain extent too, but they tend to limit it to when things aren't going well I think.
    • sahala, on 06/16/2008, -0/+31) Based on observation, women tend to be more verbose in general while decomposing their day.

      2) I think the work-day replay at home would be reduced if she had more female peers in the industry. You know... female colleagues she can kick it with at lunch or happy hour.
      • Zorkon, on 06/30/2008, -0/+0Response from girlfriend (her words, not mine):

        ---
        UGH! No thanks. I worked in a nearly all-female chemistry lab for two years and it drove me insane.
        ---

    • Aadain, on 06/17/2008, -0/+3That's women in general. My fiance does that all the time. She calls it getting lost in her head. But she admits its unhealthy to go into that mode and tries to pull herself out when she realizes she's doing it to herself. I try to help by just listening, because that usually helps her realize faster that she's just going in circles and its time to stop thinking about it.
    • norcalscan, on 06/17/2008, -0/+7This isn't just women in IT. It's the nature of women, and the nature of IT. Women tend to analyze too deeply, and IT workers tend to take work home (at least mentally) and fret over decisions. Combine the two and it's disaster.
    • mnemy, on 06/17/2008, -6/+2From personal experience, that should be a huge warning sign. Get out of that relationship before it drags ya down man. A girl that basically manufactures reasons to stress out is bad news. There's a difference between releasing some steam after a bad day, and stressing about every last thing.
      • pacookie, on 06/17/2008, -0/+1no, it really seems to be all women. the relationship is not going to fail just on that. plus, she will be a great mom when she drops out of IT in her early 30's to take