What is Digg?196 Comments
- thirdtenor, on 10/12/2007, -4/+59yeah engines that last over 200K miles and need oil changes every 10k are a huge PITA
- stealthboy, on 10/12/2007, -18/+66Yes, the war in Iraq is all about oil. Just see how the prices of gas fell! Oh, wait...
- rjnerd, on 10/12/2007, -1/+40Current US diesel fuel has a high sulfur content. This has been scheduled to change, but the deadline keeps moving. Its hard to meet current passenger car SO2 emissions limits as a result. (trucks and SUV's have much looser limits).
It does cost more to build a diesel engine (needs a sturdier bottom end, and the injectors and fuel pumps have to deal with far higher pressures, and temperatures) The net result for a pickup truck that had a $25k base price (a couple of years ago) had diesel as a $5k option over the base V8.
Unfortunately this makes diesel hybrids unlikely in the near term. With the hybrid battery adding $5k, and a comparable amount for diesel, you wind up adding 50% to the price of the car...
Still would like to have the option. - cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -10/+42Can you please elaborate why diesels are "an enormous pain in the ass"?
- quasipalm, on 10/12/2007, -6/+36I appreciate the joke -- but almost all diesel comes from oil, just like gas.
- meyerj88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24To be fair 200K miles isn't an exclusive feature to diesels. Some gas engines are cabable of 250K. I know because I've had one. It was still in good running condition and didn't need an overhaul either. I don't know why people think that anything over 100K qualifies an engine as "junk" or "worn out." At that stage it's only broken in. :)
- iluvatar, on 10/12/2007, -3/+25second of all?
- orangeRam, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21I have a 2003 Duramax Diesel Chevy Silverado as my daily driver (25 mpg highway average) and can tell you it is far superior to any of the gasoline-fueled cars I have driven. The best investment I ever made was back in 2004 I purchased a Freedom Fuel America Biodiesel distillation unit and have been making my own fuel for almost 2 years now (like a 21st century moonshiner). The components are very simple: Used frying oil of any kind, such as canola, soy, peanut, etc; ethanol and lye to raise the pH of the mixture...I can make a gallon of biodiesel for around $1.20-1.30...much cheaper than the $3.40/gallon I just saw today at a station here in NY...There was a time when I first purchased it that I was basically making it for free because I had an agreement to cart the used frying oil of several diners in the area, but after about 6 months they became wise to what I was doing and started charging me to remove it. It's still a great deal though...and no joke, my exhaust often smells like french fries and chicken fingers
My $0.02 here is to say that even though U.S. diesel sales are abysmal, once alternative fuels become more popular people will see that a general diesel car can run on 100% biodiesel with NO MODIFICATION, where an ethanol gasoline powered vehicle cannot run on pure ethanol, only blends, diesel sales in the US will skyrocket. And as an article on the front page a few days ago mentioned, the 2006 TDI Jetta was just named the most fuel efficient vehicle made - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+24The oil companies are scared to death of biodiesel, that's why:
http://www.biodiesel.org/
http://www.hempcar.org/
Even more importantly, you can make biodiesel at home with very little effort:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
You can have energy independence today, without any "advanced" technology. This is what they don't want you to know. - cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20Just to inform the Americans who are reading this thread on the situation in Europe/Germany:
I recently bought a 2002 Ford Focus hatchback diesel with 90bhp for $11000. With AC and 54000 miles on it. One gallon of diesel costs me $4.95 ($2.30 of this are taxes). I get around 42mpg and riding 110mph on the autobahn is no problem and comfortable. Each year I pay $375 of vehicle-taxes. Taxes in Germany are bound to the size of the engine and the emission standard.
How is it in the US? - CamperBob, on 10/12/2007, -19/+38Try riding a bike behind one.
- Rickler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+17Diesel in Europe doesn't smell like ass because their oil companies are forced by law to remove cancer causing sulfur down to 10ppm.. compared to Americas 500ppm.
Supposedly diesel was suppose to be 15ppm here in America mid 2006... i dunno what's happening now. Maybe congress took the money instead. - toran, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21then quit bitching and buy some oil stock.
- mistercoffee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+15This person (rjnerd) speaks the truth. I used to be involved with the automotive industry and have attended several press events for diesel powered vehicles that weren't available in the US. In each instance, the manufacturer had to bring their own fuel stores from Europe because US diesel was too dirty. The high sulfur content is the culprit behind the smoke, the smell, and many of the "PITA" factors that plague US-versioned diesel vehicles. Once "big oil" cleans up their diesel, I have a feeling a lot more of us will be driving (and enjoying) them.
- shmatt, on 10/12/2007, -5/+20yeah, all those coincidences must be just that. As if invading iraq for its oil is going to make us pay any less at the pump.
- centinall, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15You're talking about ancient diesel technology and regular diesel, not ULSD.
- Pimpalicious316, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14i for one love my VW Jetta TDI. plenty of power for around town driving/highway cruising (it's not a drag car by anymeans though), and ya can't argue with 45-50mpg. and for the most part (until recently) diesel has been cheaper per gallon than gasoline. pain in the ass? not hardly. regular mainanence and that is all.
- chicken101, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19OK -- first of all this article was written in January 2002. It's not like the data in it is even applicable anymore.
- darkmagus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12"Have you ever driven a 4-cyl turbo car in the snow??? Good luck with that."
Umm actually yeah, my Subaru does quite well in snow. Better than most heavy ass SUVs. - ratzfatz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I wish some of you guys could watch what happened here in Europe in the past 3 years. Diesel powered cars are not only now gotten extremely popular, they're amazingly fast as well. The majority of the fastest cars on the German Autobahn are the Audi / Volkswagen / BMW / Mercedes Diesels. Period. One of the most popular SUV here is the Volkswagen Touareg with 2.5 liter diesel engine. The car is also built by Porsche, called the Cayenne, but without any diesel option. Porsche lost serious market share against the Touareg and has thought more than once to make a diesel engine. The upcoming Le Mans 24 hour race in France on June 17. will be the showdown for the Audi R10 with a 12 cylinder 5.5 liter diesel engine.
Whoever is ranting about diesel engines should drive the Volkswagen TDI. It's a "small" block with 2.0 liter displacement but the acceleration is similar to that what you expect when you drive the "big block" - and I mean the "big block". Torque is constantly around 300 Nm on the same level between 1.500 and 3.000 U/pM. The best of all: plug in your laptop and patch the cars EPROM in order to boost the performance around 30 - 50%. I've seen diesel Golfs on the Autobahn hunting Porsches and the 7 class BMW. Still running around 40 to 45 miles per gallon. It sounds unbelievable but its true. Other German or Dutch diggers will confirm.
The low sulfur diesel exhaust doesn't smell like farts at all. It's a rather Chlorine smelling odor, like around a freshly maintained swimming pool. - adolfojp, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13The car with the best fuel economy in the USA is not the Prius. It is the Jetta turbodiesel. (This might not be true)
Honda Accord's diesel is not only more fuel efficient than the Accord hybrid but it also has cleaner emissions.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/12/comparing_accor.html - fledder, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Europe is a very diverse continent in terms of taxes and such, but I'll try to give my side of the story here in Holland. First, the people here that drive gasoline cars do not all drive 1.3 litre ones like someone said. sure on average we have smaller cars, but they do perform very well. Most new gasoline models either start from a 2.0 litre engine, or 1.6 but highly tuned. If you got the money, you can of course buy much faster cars, but there hardly is a point to it in one of the most crowded countries in the world.
I have driven and owned both modern gasoline and diesel cars. the new diesel cars over here perform equal to the gasoline ones, while having a better milage. they do pollute more, which is why a diesel car is more expensive to purchase and own (road tax). The economic advantage of a diesel car in holland starts at about 15,000 miles a year. A gallon of diesel costs slightly less than 4$ here, while a gallon of gasoline is roughly 6$.
No real point to my story, just sharing some facts. Sometimes popular belief is wrong.
Edit: by the way, the modern diesel cars are not louder at all. My current one is loud, but it is older. Pollution is only relative, we are legally required to get our car's pollution "rate" tested each year. Furthermore, if you drive a car that uses 5 times more gasoline than a smaller diesel car, in absolute numbers you're still polluting more. - kacymartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9not to mention biodiesel which actually isn't that bad to smell at all.
- robbh66, on 10/12/2007, -26/+35Yes, because they pump unleaded straight out of the ground in Iraq. Maybe we'll go after Iran for their vast disel reserves.
Oh, wait... - sinner0423, on 10/12/2007, -9/+18Because the US is so used to being bent over & ***** in the ass over gas prices, even hybrids didn't take off the way that everyone thought they would. I doubt any form of a diesel would matter at all.
I'm convinced it's just a huge good ol' boys club between the oil companies & car manufacturers in order to suck every last penny from the american consumer. It's not entirely their fault, if you've purchased an SUV in the past 10 years, you're just contributing to the problem. "I need space" or "I want to feel safe" is not an excuse to purchase an SUV, at all. You're just wasting your money, and you're a hazard to other people on the road. I feel the need to tell you, the consumer, because apparently nobody else bothered to.
I like turbocharged 4 cylinder cars. You should check one out some time, it's fairly efficient on gas, and quick as *****. Oh, it sounds cool too. - BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Diesel fuel is currently more expensive than premium octane unleaded gasoline.
It is also far worse diesel than what you can find in Europe. As a result, diesel engines sold in the USA have fuel maps that are less aggressive to cope with the poor quality of US diesel fuel and therefore get worse gas mileage and deliever less power than diesel engines designed to run on European diesel fuels.
This is not a "conspiracy", it is just the trend that we (American consumers) have created by voting with our dollars.
There are wonderful benefits to using diesel engines: they can take tons of abuse and the way they develop power is very torquey (you will hit maximum torque at MUCH lower RPM's than gas engines....so you will get that "punchy" kick around 2000rpm versus 3500rpm. Unfortunately they also suffer from lack of power on the top end which is why you won't see diesel engines in sporty cars anytime soon although this may change as the technology improves.
If all those idiots driving their Priuses and other hybrid crapboxes REALLY cared about gas mileage they would have bought Jetta/Golf TDI's. Those cars will be running on the road LOOOOONG after all the Japanese hybrids have had their batteries shot to hell from age. Those diesel cars are easily capable of 40mpg with mixed driving. - codyman, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I love diesels. I am glad low sulfur fuel is coming in October.
If my prediction comes true (that in the next two to three years diesel cars become of availability here in the US), I for one will buy one because of the mileage and the torquey feel I love... :-) - klang, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8so, Americans have suddenly, since January 2002, purchased a massive amount of diesel cars, so that the balance between diesel and gasoline is the same as in Europe?
Oh, it's still the same 2-3% of all cars? .. I guess the article is still valid, after 3 years.
I'll do you one better .. I will bet you that the article will still be valid in 5 years .. or even in 10. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8i had a 1978 Thunderbird who's odometer had gone around at least twice. Wasn't the engine that put it in, was the rear oil seal :-P
diesel just... its not a word Americans connect with i don't think. It's like saying petrol. We know what it is, but we don't like it. - xgravix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Gas engines frequently last that long if they were well taken care of. Often you still get duds though.
- BassCadet, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10@Brasky
my Lancer Evolution with winter tires handles better in the snow than ANY piece of ***** heavy SUV.
If you truly want good traction in the snow buy a Subaru or an Audi Quattro. All these idiots with 4x4 SUVs can't even figure out how to put their cars in 4x4 mode. - AeonTorpor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7What's with this "rice-rocket" *****? Most cars from Japanese companies made in the US now, and many are engineered here. As opposed to what, Ford, Chevy? They are made in Mexico. Does that make them "Horchata-rockets"? They're called CARS. Cars are cars, the differences are in the sizes, uses and efficiencies. Discuss that, not where the ***** thing was made.
- minoss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yea, bio-diesel is cheap when you get the main ingredient (waste oil) for free or extremely cheap. However, it isn't cost efficient to make it in mass amounts since there wouldn't be enough waste vegetable oil to go around.
And it doesn't take "little effort" to make. Going to a gas station and pumping gas takes little effort. Making bio-diesel needs special apparatus, multiple chemicals, and takes time to make. Plus, you have to haul around gallons of oil on a regular basis which takes a lot more effort than you give credit for. - jragon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Yeah, I run a biodesiel jetta wagon. Love it. It was sort of annoying paying $3 per gallon last year, but it was ballanced out by the 30-40 mpg I was getting. Plus the low environmental impact made me feel good.
But then normal gas went higher than $3, so now it's better *and* cheaper. Woo! - triplehelix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6add in bio-diesel to the sulfur debate.
add in the life expectancy of a diesel into the cost. add in the reduced price of maintenance while we're at it. - kozie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Diesel engines have come a long way. The newer ones are great, and if diesel is not cheaper than petrol or "gas" then if you'd like work it out MPG vs. MPG you'll find that it'll still be cheaper. And service intervals are dropped aswell as newer engines are much more reliable.
- Lynxpro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I was pissed that I couldn't buy a NEW VW Beetle TDI (diesel) in California back in summer 2004. But California banned sales of NEW diesel cars due to the high sulfur content, supposedly from American fuel, but probably due to the fact that Mexican oil is dirty. But you can IMPORT a USED diesel car into California as long as it has 7,500 miles or more. So I searched online for VW dealerships in Oregon and Washington to see if they had any used Beetles for sale - certified so I could still get a VW low interest loan - but alas, everybody up North were keeping their Beetles to themselves, whether they were home brewing their own biodiesel or not.
So due to California's stupid laws, I have a gasoline burning Turbo Beetle and paying through the nose for gasoline. Way to go stupid California Legislature (and their Democratic overlords). I'll keep my fingers crossed that Arnold signs an executive order permitting new diesel cars to be sold in the next year prior to the new Federal diesel regulations coming into effect. - centinall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You're right about California I believe. The only way to get one was wait for someone out of the state to put 10k+ miles on it and then bring it across state lines. In fact I believe that there are no VW TDI's being sold as a 2007 or 2008 model, or until the new ULSD (ultra low sulfur diesel) comes into place.
- GaleForce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The Volkswagen Golf TDI isn't the only diesel car available in the United States. There's also the Touraeg TDI, among others.
- skabber, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5My Golf TDI gets around 50 mpg on Bio Diesel
We need more diesel vehicles on the road. - thirdtenor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5the crazy thing is you can tune a VW TDI for more power AND get better MPG
- mapleshade, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5First, what the hell is a four-year-old article doing on here, and second "Plus no gearhead like myself would ever consider a diesel engine." Obviously you are not familiar with Gale Banks: http://bankspower.com/. These trucks are badass. What rice burner could you throw a thousand horsepower at and keep the stock drivetrain (except of course a mid 80's Supra)?
- kacymartin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7old article but still a pretty relevant topic.
- straypackets, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Americans think diesels are slow, smelly, dirty, noisy and don't work in the winter. Diesels are close enough to that in reality that there's neglible demand.
The key factor, as with hybrids, is price. Most people won't buy a car out of ideological commitment. Eco-friendly cars need to be a good financial deal before they'll be popular. People are clever enough to figure out that paying a $5000 premium to buy a car that will save them $3000 in fuel costs over its lifetime isn't much of a bargain. - aegis9975, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4ULSD (ulta low sulfur diesel) is being released in the US over the next few years, but low-sulfur diesels are only half the answer. High-performance particulate filters will still needed to be fitted to diesel cars to meet US CAFE emissions regulations, these filters are still expensive (being that they use platinum as a catylst), but high sulfur content clogging the filter will no longer be the problem.
Still, one of the popular methods to process ULSD is still using Fischer-Tropsch GTL(gas-to-liquid) methods based from coal. These synfuels are clearly low-sulfur and high-quality but the production of the fuel is incredibly harmful to the enviroment, but since they are coal-based rather than petroleum based, it will decrease the need for foreign crude oil.
As crude oil price rises, expect to see more coal-based low-sulfur diesel. - Lynxpro, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Difficult to access? Try doing something general like changing an air filter on a New Beetle. You have to have liliputian hands to fit down there. I swear, VW makes it difficult on purpose so you have to get an air filter changed at their dealership and thus they can charge you $50 to do that and give you another ***** paper filter and dissuade you on installing a K&N Air Filter by claiming the oil particles ***** up the manifold and other *****.
- pixogen, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8"Diesel fuel is usually cheaper on gasoline"
How so? It costs almost as much as premium here. - jaywhy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5There are a multitude of reasons why Americans don't like diesels. Poorly made diesels in the 70s are probably the major reason. Americans quickly lost trust in diesel engines. Now whether the perception was real or perceived. It really doesn't matter anymore. Another reason that quickly comes to mind, is diesel engines are historically much louder than gasoline engines. Through the years and better diesel engine designs, this has been somewhat fixed. Diesels are still loud though compared to plain old gas.
It is true though diesel engines are much more efficient, cheaper(not during winter), and cut down on emissions(not by much though). Also diesel engines can run on biodiesel(vegetable oil basically) which cuts down on emissions even more. With all this being said, diesel isn't the answer for the U.S. energy needs.
Diesel still relies on fossil fuels, it still pollutes. Even biodiesel although it sounds great, will not work. Biodiesel needs crops, crops need nitrogen(fertilizer), nitrogen is made using natural gas. Plus the BIG problem with biodiesel is there simply isn't enough land to make soybeans, etc. You can't make biodiesel, feed people, and feed animals(the ones we eat). Corn ethanol, sugar ethanol have the same problem.
Biodiesel/diesel can be a component of new energy future of the U.S. But it isn't the answer.
One final note, we should be talking about cellulosic ethanol instead. Cellulostic ethanol is made from waste urban, agricultural, etc. Most of this is either burned off now, or tossed in landfills. It lowers greenhouse gases compared to gas engines by 85%. Corn ethanol the number is much lower around 15%. With higher efficiency standards the emissions could be even lower. There isn't a corn lobby behind it though. Celluslostic ethanol needs more funding.
Ethanol can run on every car today with just a few retrofits. Plus new cars can support both ethanol and gas. Using a computer chip that tells the difference and changes engine timings, etc.
Contact your elected officials. Don't just trust me. Do a google search or check it out on wikipedia and research yourself. This effects everyone, not just your car, but the food you eat, the products you buy, everything. Fossil fuels are not infinite. - mihemihe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5At first place, sorry for my bad english, i'm Spanish and i don't speak english so good.
Reading the comments, i've noticed that the united states people are not so good informed about the diesel cars. The disel cars in Europe, have suffered a lot of innovations in all aspects, from performance to pollution control. In the performance, here, in spain, you can see a Seat Leon TDI(Diesel), 140 bhp accelerating too much faster than a Audi TT 225 bhp (gas), but in a long range the audi TT beat the Seat Leon, obviosly. The disel engines, with turbo, has a great torque from low rpm to high. The poor performance in acceleration is a thing of the past. Here in spain, diesel litre(1/4 of a US gallon, more or less) cost 1 %u20AC, and gas cost from 1,10 to 1,25, depend of the octanage. Also, when you buy a car, the question is , how many Km (or milles) will yo do every year, if you do, 30k km more or less, you need a diesel car. Other example of the disel cars are de reliability, there is one fact about the diesel cars, in all the live of the car, the engine, the pistons, and the mobile pieces of the engine, do more or less the half of the movement of a gas car, for the same Km, what is the reason ? .... simple, the diesel engine operate at an average of 2k revolutions per minute, instead the gas operate at an average of 4k revolutions per minute. less friction, more life !, the example are the taxis, here in spain, you can see a Skoda octavia, a Mercerdes E 220 or a peugeot 406 with more than once million of Km!! one real example, http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1343105,00.html , are in spanish, but talk about a greek taxi with 4.6 Million of km !!!! maybe this case is exagerated, but is only one example of diesel reliability.
In the other hand, the pollution maybe still a problem but.... what car is worst... a medium european diesel car, with 4 cylinders, 150 hbp, and an average of 7 liters each 100 km(in spain is usually measure the consumption of the car in liters consumed per 100 km of distance), or an US gas SUV, 6 or 9 cylinders, and more tan 250 hbp of power and an average comsumption of more tan 15 liters per litre....... maybe the diesel pollution si less, but the particles conforming the pollution are worse, but, if you think about the every year pollution control test, the new generation particule traps for diesel engines, and the overall liters of diesel consumed, i'm sure that in overall, the medium US citizen generate more pollution....
Regards - OrangeTide, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Well there were plenty of European countries involved in the oil-for-food scandal. It seems any sufficiently large and powerful nation has some corruption.
-
Show 51 - 100 of 197 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is