What is Digg?118 Comments
- twollamalove, on 10/12/2007, -3/+34I agree with you in many many situations. But in this case, Winternals seems to have been immensly patient before pursuing (probably overdue) legal action.
- roastedbagel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33Best of luck with the case, I hope Best Buy is ordered to cough up every last penny they stole...
- plamoni, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29Stole is a good word for Best Buy.
I looked it up. Just to get a "Geek" to show up at your doorstep for a "911" repair is $300. Lets say your CD-ROM broke and you need it fixed right away. That is $300 to get them to show up, $160 for the hardware installation, and don't forget you have to actually buy your own CD-ROM from Best Buy, which is probably another 60 bucks. So you are looking at over $500 to get your CD-ROM repaired. You could buy a new computer for that.
You would think that after just a couple of those $500 visits, the Goon Squad could afford to buy the diagnostic software. Especially because your average "Geek" gets 10-15 bucks an hour. So since Best Buy is paying about $30 (or less) for the CD-ROM and about $20 for the "Geek" and the gas to get them there, they are sitting on about $470 profit off that hour long visit. - merlinicorpus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+22This is a much better digg than the previous story. Unlike the last one, this links directly to the details about what exactly is going on. Best Buy started a licencing agreement with Winternals, backed out at the last second, and then started using a pirated copy of the software to make money. If Winternals is successful in this lawsuit, it would have several important ramifications for the IT community, not the least of which is Geek Squad getting taken down a few pegs.
Dunno what this rvalles guy is smoking. His entire rambling, incoherent comment is shockingly ignorant. 1144 diggs on the previous story hardly suggests that "intellectual property fights that aren't interesting for anybody else". Not to mention this isn't a traditional IP case at all. - deinspanjer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+16What are you talking about? Mark didn't post this digg article. He just had a blog entry where he took the time to give people some facts behind the lawsuit beyond the media hype. Yes he does have a *single line* in the long blog that mentions if you have any information useful to the case that you can fill out a survey. That makes this whole digg article a spam? ::shrug:: whatever.
- twollamalove, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I know this will seem strange at first, but pay attention. There is a difference between pirating Photoshop at work to make a few graphics for some document and pirating Photoshop at a marketing company and using it to basically do your job. I'm not commenting on the morality of either, but the point is that Winternals software is helping the GS perform their basic function and thereby is a major part in their profitability, and the GS is not compensating them at all.
Also, the GS/BB employs the alleged infringers, so in the end GS/BB is responsible. There's even less grey area for BB and the GS when it appears to have happened on a large scale implying that BB and GS turned the blind eye to the problem. - Anth, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Actually from the looks of what he said, BB was using Winternals illegally, then wanted to come into compliance by purchasing a license. They got training on how to use Winternals, and then they backed out of the agreement after they had got training. They continue to use the software illegally. I hope those guys get a huge chunk (in statutory and punative damages) of that $1B the Geek Squad has supposedly made BB.
- SniperX, on 10/12/2007, -4/+18well keep in mind this isn't just to buy it once.
The license is $1440 (1199+240) per user. And the Geek Squad has 12,000 employees. Let's say they make them an unbelievable deal and cut the license in half ($720) and only purchase licenses for half their employees (not everyone who works for geek squad will need it, most will, but not all, so this should be safe), which is 6000 licenses.
That would cost Best Buy $4,320,000
So it will cost them quite a bit of "$500 visits" to cover that. Granted comparing that to the 1 billion dollars they are expected to be making this year and it seems like a drop in the bucket, it's still a great deal of money. - keslacr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15That may be true that the people on the Geek Squad chose to use the software, but Best Buy is the responsible to make sure that their employees are not using any unregistered software in any form. That is why Best Buy will need to pay. They should have taken away any disks of that software and removed everything trace of it from their systems.
- AnalogDaylight, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16With the bulk of lawsuits between companies these days involving patents being totally frivolous and unwarranted, this case stands out because the company doing the suing appears to have 100% validation for their cause. I hope they crush Best Buy and receive every penny as well as compensation for having to file a lawsuit in the first place.
- megabytehl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Lets remember those are yearly licenses and that there's all sorts of other punitive damages invovled. This could easily be a $50-100 million dollar settlement for BB. Letting this go to court would be a HUGE mistake, they'd take it up the butt like there's no tomorrow.
- plamoni, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Okay, we can round up to $5,000,000 a year. Now take that and divide it by 10,000 "Geeks" and you get $500 per geek per year. Which is just one visit per geek per year to keep this thing going.
Still sound like an overwhelming burden? - UezeU, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11You are responsible for your employee's actions in the workplace. Turning a blind eye to a criminal action is negligence.
- dongiaconia, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Yes, it's actually a pretty big deal if one of the discs gets left behind. When I was a Double Agent with the Geeksquad, the MRI discs we used would boot windows up with a special background image warning the user that the disc currently in the drive could do serious damage to the system if used incorrectly--and that it should be thrown out.
- thefirelane, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10you haven't had much car work done, have you?
- Kitsune818, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8It's up to Best Buy to manage it's employees properly and inforce it's own policies. The whole idea of incorporation is that the corporation is liable to the public at large, not the individual employees. Even if Best Buy management said "Don't do this!" and everyone went ahead and did it anyway, they did not adequately enfore their policy by actually making sure that it was being carried out. I mean, that is the point of managers afterall.
- Kitsune818, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I'd side with Winternals on this one. From my at-this-point limited view point, it looks like they a) offer a free version of their software with a more advanced pay version available b) Overlooked that the company was already pirating their software to negotiate a license c) remained patient while that company then ditched them and didn't pay for the software it was using.
Best Buy has it coming, they F'ed up. - codefidelity, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Geeksquad around my area are a bunch of tools. High prices, and half the time they just put band-aids on open wounds. I hope Winternals gets every cent.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I hope they completely destroy BB in court. Those guys at Sysinternals are geniuses that make high quality software, and provide more than their share of freeware for everyone to use. They should get paid every cent they ask for.
- Lacrossedragon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Sigh...and I work for the Geek Squad as a high school job. Oh well, can't say I'm surprised.
- Alphateam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7>>So it will cost them quite a bit of "$500 visits" to cover that. Granted comparing that to the 1 billion dollars they are expected to be making this year and it seems like a drop in the bucket, it's still a great deal of money.
When I worked for a service company we billed the customer if we needed special software. Why didn't they pass the cost on to the customer? They think they are the 800 pound gorilla and don't need to bow down to anyone, especially some dinky software company. I bet BB makes in 1 week what Winternals makes all year, BB doesn't care. Not about the customer and not about Winternals, just the bottom line. - stou, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I guess GeekSquad is a total rip off... they charge like 50$ to remove one spywear from your machine... 250$ to reinstall the OS... and from what i heard its not uncommon for people to be billed $600+ Its great that they are being sued
- Kaioshin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6There is a difference between a company and an individual.
There is also a difference between warezing for oneself or for a profit. - Durrok, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8People pay it though don't they? That's why they get charged such insane rates.
- garoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I hope this goes as an example to all the consulting firms around the world that use pirated software
- thatsiebguy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8If you have ever gotten a hold of one of their system disks (one was left in a computer of ours), you will find alot of stuff on it, that probably wasn't paid for...
- northerncomfort, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Businesses shouldn't pirate software, especially on a mass level. It's that simple.
- SweetsGreen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6I love Best Buys....but what kind of moron pays that much to get their computer fixed....I fix most computers for a 6-pack.
- keslacr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5If Best Buy really cared to not break the law, they would have taken away all copies of that software and would have punished the people who use it accordingly so no one would be using it. Kitsune818 hit the point that everyone needs to pay attention to, Best Buy is incorporated, thus the company and not the individuals are responsible for the actions.
- VeritasAequitas, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I am also a former Geek Squad member I'm from MN where Geek Squad was founded separate from Best Buy and it was a great company of professionals that I grew up looking up to. Best Buy bought them and I went to work for them shortly there after. This issue with copyright infringement is just one of the many issues and corruptions that I have seen since Best Buy bought the name. They are ruining the Geek Squad name. When I worked there I was not only shown HOW to use winternals software but TOLD to use it along with many other pieces of software that I'm sure was not licensed. we had binders of CD's and none of them were originals, every single one was a burned copy. Oh yeah note that I worked in MN, just miles from Corp. headquarters and we had Best Buy big wigs in our store everyday, they know damn well whats going on. Best Buy bought a name and a great service and are turning it into crap! I'm still a computer tech but NOT for them, I left and filed a complaint with Best Buy about there Geek Squad practices my complaint was never answered. weird huh. Best buy controls their employees with cult like control, they know exactly whats going on and could have stopped it.
- megabytehl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5ERD Commander or another standalone opperating system like it is absolutely necessary for any professional computer repair technician. I completely, whole heartedly, endorse it. Apparently so does BB, but not with their wallets as well.
- schwit, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Most of these problems would be user solvable if Microsoft made it possible to use the 'system restore' process by booting off of the install CD. Unfortunately Microsoft is marketing focused, not customer focused.
- heycasey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I imagine this will be great publicity for the Administrator's Pak software. How many people will be thinking, "Wow, this software must be great if employees still felt compelled to use it even when licensing talks fell through."
- joeyjojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Somebody has to explain to me why making copies of songs and distributing these copies to other people is OK, yet Digg users mightily condemn a similar action by BestBuy."
Because they are entirely different, the latter is a company making massive profits off of other's works.
Me taping a few songs for a friend does not benefit me financially in any way.
Furthermore, the actions of the plaintiff's are immensley different. The RIAA is a guilty until proven monster, suing those the least capable of defending themselves for insanely unfair settlements. Winternals went OUT OF THEIR WAY to work with best buy, forgiving them and offering them a deal. - Ma5t3r_Chi3f, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I use to be a Geek Squad DA until recently... I believe that Winternals should get everything they deserve. It was a fun job, but I am not BBY-brainwashed. Some things that I do have to say though...
They do have a list of approved software for use to repair computers (Most not developed by GS, Some were, but all licensed)
There was never any distro of Winternals to employees. Like all techs, we occasionally find tools that work, but the GS tools are supposed to be standardized.
Geek squad in store, IMHO are not Geek Squad, just regular in store techs given a different uniform.
We who were/are DA's rarely go into the store for anything. Who is to check our tech tools?
I NEVER USED ANY WINTERNALS SOFTWARE, but I occasionally needed to use a program that was not on the approved list to fix something. (Illegal, yes)
I doubt that BBY used the Winternals training to train employees on how to use an unlicensed app. I still worked for them when this surfaced. It was probably just the guys up at Corp. who are the decision makers.
I don't doubt that individual "Timmys" find tools that work for them and use them, legal or not.
Good for Winternals. Geek Squad was fun... free car, phone, laptop, GPS, and $19/HR. I have sinced moved on to bigger and better things (More pay), but I think there is a misconception of Best Buy the company and Best buy employees in which some are bad apples that don't comply to SOP.
Just my .02 - sinner0423, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I had to reply to this, I feel like it's not a troll but is worthy of a reply.
Bottom line - Best Buy isn't some ratty assed small business that has extremely tight margins and can't afford software. They're a BRAND NAME, which automatically qualifies them to not be cheap *****, and actually purchasing licenses for software that they use to perpetuate their unholy crusade of overpriced electronic goods & sub-par customer service. It's not like they can't afford it.
People download music & movies, and partially for a good reason - it's overpriced. I'm not paying $15 for a CD, and I'm sure as hell not going to suck money out of my wallet via micro payments to purchase each individual song. What if you had to put change in to a slot in your car for every mile that you drove? Wouldn't you just get sick of it after awhile? The same idea holds true for iTunes or any one of those other music purchasing services, the basic idea is just retarded.
Sorry, but the RIAA/MPAA is going to have to come up with something better other than telling people "***** you, pay me, or we'll sue you". - jackbauer007, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4im glad this happened i worked at best buy and saw what they did behind the scences at the so called "Geek Squad", all they did was use programs that are free on the internet like spybot and adaware and then scan a computer that someone brought in for problem. And the price for it was like 50 bucks lol. THen they used a virus scanner and installed and uninstalled it with out fair use. I'm glad someone is taking down this crooked business. The people that come into Geek squad barely no how to turn on a computer and the ones working there barely know how to fix a basic software issue. And i asked the guy isn't it illegal to use these programs without paying a liscence and he said if we uninstall it its ok...haha how great is...as south park said it... i hope best buy dissapears completely up its own ***** lol
- ai42, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9It won't happen. Loser pays laws do not exist in the US. However, I would support them if proposed. However, BB could be forced to pay millions for thousands of illegally used softare licenses. As much as I support the little guy though Best Buy will not make it easy. I'm sure they have scores of lawyers ready to fight anything to the bitter end even if they are totally wrong.
- jswaby, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4the people at best buy are crooks. It's about time they start owning up to their own BS.
- tryferos, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8And im sure there are plenty of ex-Best Buy/Geek Squad employees that will testify on Winternals behalf. Oh this is gonna get good...but my guess is that to avoid any more bad press, Best Buy will just settle out of court.
- phuqmnb, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6As a former Agent with the Geek Squad, I can see jeremycobert being correct. I know at the store I was at they told us numerous times to stop using certain software because of licensing issues. The problem with that was, those were the tools that always worked the best and/or made the job easier and I always wanted to fix the problem and educate the user instead of the band-aid fix.
Do I think BB is 100% at fault?...no
Do I think they charge waaaay to much for GS services?....damn right - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Joey, you are an idiot if you think $250 to install windows is a good deal.
- tehJR, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6They should go after Business Depot (Staples in Canada) and Future Shop. Huge rip offs for the tech service. Unless you get a nice tech who isn't a jerk and will charge fairly, they charge way too much.
I should know, I headed up a tech department at one. - HeavyMetaler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah like the thousands they recently laid off last week
ie: my buddy I goto school with that worked with geek squad and was laid off, i kindly directed him to the winternals.com/survey link to stick it back to the man. - Criterion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I'm not saying Best Buy is right, but how do you keep that many employees from using any unlicensed software."
You keep them from using unlicensed software by providing them the tools they need from the start instead of cheaping out. - jeruvin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This is going to be a blow to those that rely upon Geek Squad for computer services. I can see the Best Buy clamping down on what a Geek Squad Agent is able to use and not use to do their job. Maybe to the extent that legally free utilities will be no longer allowed to do basic tests and repairs until the suits are able to drool over the license agreement.
I'm not saying Best Buy is right, but how do you keep that many employees from using any unlicensed software. Corporations always seem to have a disconnection from what is really happening in their stores and with their employees.
I expect the Geek Squad/Best Buy employees to suffer quite a bit from whatever happens. Hate the company that Best Buy is, but not all of the employees are bad people. They just follow what they need to in order to keep their job and afford the bills. - crythias, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I don't understand what the point is of complaining about prices of Geek Squad service. Stealing software, fine, complain. But if the market will bear $50 for spy ware removal, so be it. If you ask your neighbor to do it, they might do it for less. If you ask a Network Professional to do it, s/he could command $100+/hour from a business, and will get it. It's not extortion. It's simply matters of scale and convenience. You don't have to use Geek Squad, nor do you have to use a Network Professional.
Even if it's $500 to replace a computer, it's still the fact that data and apps and emails on the current machine are of value to the owner. - bairy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3They don't "have to" pirate software.
If offering the service is losing money for the other stores then either they shouldn't offer it, or the successful stores should prop them up, as is the nature of a chain.
Assuming the figures above are correct: $1bn in, $0.005bn out. They really really don't "have to" pirate a thing.
I use very little of Winternals but it looks like they write both very good and very competent software and to not pay them for that is just wrong. - jeruvin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Geek Squad Agents are Best Buy employees. They are NOT consultants.
- SniperX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@AlphaTeam:
They are passing all their costs along, that's why an emergency visit makes them so much money, to cover costs.
@plamoni:
Excellent point. There's no reason why Best Buy should be even considering not paying these licenses, I wouldn't be surprised if this was more of an issue with some executive who is too swamped with their work and this probably just fell through the cracks. It happens, often. -
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