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121 Comments
- Ulvund, on 10/12/2007, -12/+81So World of Warcraft starts now when Vista comes out?
I'm pretty sure that the Burning Crusade is already out. - baxtermaddux, on 10/12/2007, -9/+73you mean where is your career going when you perform at the party of the Largest Company in the world (behind exxon and wla mart) with a user base of 500 million people? yeah. thats just so pathetic.
/sarc. - IdanE, on 10/12/2007, -16/+79I'm not a windows fan. I use windows because, well, it's the best OS for what I need. I dabble in linux but it simply doesn't give me an appropriate solution to my every need (at least for the time being).
That being said, Vista has lots of DRM crap, true. But if you have a problem with DRM - don't get DRM'd media! If you get music or videos that have DRM, you can't ask them to give you an easy way to bypass it. Let's face it - most of the people who are against DRM would sooner download the movie/music from BT sites than actually buy the DRM'd files (or perhaps buy it on CD/DVD and rip it themselves).
I used vista, I played all my MP3s, all my Xvids and all without any problems.
And yeah, I'm pretty sure MS would have preferred to save the development costs that were incurred by adding a robust DRM system. But then the *AA pressured them and they did, from a business viewpoint, the right thing.
Oh, and BTW, for anyone that's going to say how much better linux is - linux will either have to comply with these things, hack them away (which would be just as qustionable as pirating it) or include support for the same DRM measures.
Just to make something clear - I'm against DRM. I either buy the media and rip it or, in all honesty, I usually find a descent torrent and download it. I'm not going to use DRM'd media. But I can't blame MS for conforming to the *AA - They're a business, not a movement - Menso, on 10/12/2007, -5/+61Well, I am not worried about Vista being the plaque, seeing as I don't plan on bringing it anywhere near my teeth.
- Elbart, on 10/12/2007, -16/+64But it's Apple, and Apple is good and just, didn*t you know that?
HAIL STEV... err XENU! - Ramble, on 10/12/2007, -20/+57And OS X has the same DRM!!
- linuxlizard, on 10/12/2007, -18/+50> if you dont like DRM, DONT USE DRM STUFF!!
What if I don't have a choice? What happens when MS Office documents go through the DRM path and require MS Office and MS Vista and MS Windows 2003 Server? Doesn't that exist in Office 2007 now?
What happens when my company (and I can see my seriously security conscious employer doing this) decides to encrypt all our corporate documents from data sheets down to the phone list? So much for Open Office.
What happens if hardware manufacturers move to XDOC (or WTF it's called? Microsoft's PDF clone) and block printing or copy/paste? So much for reaching those PDFs with kpdf.
Hollywood has nothing I want to steal. I don't care about their movies. I care about trying to get my job done. Security is the inverse of convenience (I think Bruce Schneier said that?) and Microsoft's DRM has the potential to push that inconvenience to my day-to-day job. People creating commercial information, whatever it is, will be tempted to simply slap MS-DRM on top of it for the feeling of control they get.
Just my 2c. - dbdig, on 10/12/2007, -7/+34What do you do when someone, somewhere decides that your Vista should not work anymore ?
What do you do when your documents, for some software glitch are lost forever ?
Encryption, if done properly, is a real pain.
If the keys of your computer are in the hand of Microsoft, with pieces hidden, how can you possibly trust them to "be nice and good" ? (they already have a bad track record on this)
Power corrupts ! - AniceAtheist, on 10/12/2007, -17/+42the operating system is the backbone of the computer. And this one will turn your computer into their computer. you will be a customer of your own machine. Digital Restriction Management is a death knell. It is not just about pirating, Vista is also affecting small gamer developers, users on tight budgets(less performance) and many more.
Microsoft has a history of trying to monopolize markets, which it is still being sued by the EU even as I type this, You think they won't take advantage of these 'features' to rest even more control from the individual?
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html - nixr, on 10/12/2007, -4/+25I just don't get it. I've done a fair amount of reading on this topic and the only DRM "management" that I know Vista has is its support for HDCP. What was Microsoft to do? Tell its customers that it wouldn't be including support for HD content in its latest OS? If the entertainment industry is going to insist on using DRM, then all OSes are going to have to support it if they want to remain competitive. DRM is the entertainment industry's brainchild not Microsoft's.
- t3hX, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter10/tpm/
Hmmm.
>The media has been discussin "Apple's use of TPM" for a long time now. There have been numerous reports of
>system attackers bypassing "Apple's TPM protection" and finding "Apple's TPM keys." Nevertheless, it is important
>to note that Apple does not use the TPM. If you have a TPM-equipped Macintosh computer, you can use the TPM for
>its intended purpose, with no side effect on the normal working of Mac OS X.
>At the time of this writing (October 2006), the newest Apple computer models, such as the MacPro and possibly
>the revised MacBook Pro and the revised iMac, do not contain an onboard Infineon TPM. Apple could bring the TPM
>back, perhaps, if there were enough interest (after all, it is increasingly common to find TPMs in current notebook
>computers), but that's another story.
Well, it's not even IN the latest Macs! So much for heavily DRM'd down, as the only real DRM on OS X is the iTMS DRM (and that's a pretty weak scheme, considering there are about 10 ways round it (iMovie import/export, burn to cd, jhymn etc etc)) - Darcy, on 10/12/2007, -15/+31I'll say this loudly:
IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH DRM, DON'T USE MEDIA THAT USES DRM.
At least with Windows you have the FREEDOM to decide for yourselves, unlike some operating systems I could think of. - archer75, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16You guys forget that this DRM is also built into your TV's, it's in your set top DVD players. You TV must also be HDCP compliant, which most are. If they have cable card support they also have the same DRM.
Apple will eventually come out with blue ray drives in thier products and they will have to include the same DRM support as mandated by the MPAA. It's not just in vista, it's in everything. - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19"What happens when my company (and I can see my seriously security conscious employer doing this) decides to encrypt all our corporate documents from data sheets down to the phone list? So much for Open Office.
What happens if hardware manufacturers move to XDOC (or WTF it's called? Microsoft's PDF clone) and block printing or copy/paste? So much for reaching those PDFs with kpdf."
What the hell does any of this have to do with HDCP. Anyone can add DRM to a document, no matter what OS they're on. - gm2net, on 10/12/2007, -13/+27Actually, no it doesn't. The motherboard has a TPM, but it's actually not used for anything other than determining when it's running on real apple hardware or not.
Of course, the Vista lovers are coming here in droves to digg that up, and likely me down. Ahh well, Digg's like that. The truth is never known if it's the unpopular view... - STKD, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I love the Amiga to death but...
1. Games.
2. Apps.
3. Hardware support.
Would be the main reasons... - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20"Actually, no it doesn't. The motherboard has a TPM, but it's actually not used for anything other than determining when it's running on real apple hardware or not.
Of course, the Vista lovers are coming here in droves to digg that up, and likely me down. Ahh well, Digg's like that. The truth is never known if it's the unpopular view..."
So let me get this straight. When it comes to Vista we're allowed to take existing DRM shcemes, come up with unrealistic, contrived situations about how that DRM 'could' be used, then bash Vista as if the imaginary DRM scheme was already being implemented. When it comes to OSX, which has an even stronger, more invasive, hardware based DRM backbone it's perfectly fine to say 'yeah, they have EFI, which is way worse than any software based DRM MS has, but they aren't using it for anything right now so it's fine". - STKD, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20I have been using Vista in various forms entirely for the last 3 weeks or so. I can't say I've encountered a single issue that made me even think about DRM so I don't know where all this came from. Even WMP11 has copy protection on wma ripping CD's turned off by default.
For another thing... Microsoft was FORCED to include what is supposedly in there by the industry so they could provide certain features they otherwise wouldn't have been allowed to. (I believe blu-ray/HD-DVD support were part of it but don't quote me on that...)
Now there *is* the bigger problem of virtually all soundcards/mobo audio being near useless for directsound surround/EAX type audio due to the removal of the Hardware Abstraction Layer however... which nobody seems to have ever mentioned yet is a huge story.
http://blog.pcformat.co.uk/page/pcformat?entry=vista_in_game_audio_broken
http://preview.creativelabs.com/alchemy/default.aspx - Septimus, on 10/12/2007, -7/+21But Leopard will. How else do you fricking think it will be abe to play back BR and HD-DVD.
Mac apologists are sad.
It's not the OS vendors fault FFS. They want to support the latest media, they have to bend over and take it as they don't have the balls to say no. - Phil246, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16'absolute power corrupts absolutely' i believe is the saying you were after :)
I think the microsoft astroturfers are busy at work on this article though, burying people like you and all those with similar opinions - Septimus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13The removal of the audio HAL won't make any difference once Creative, who are the only ones bitching about it as it means they have to write new drivers, oh noes, stfu.
It should in the end improve audio capabilities in Windows. - clyde2801, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13No, you will just get it on a new computer, whether you want it or not.
- Copywrong, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12There's been some speculation that the Canadian guy mentioned in this article is Muslix64. Like Muslix64 he's a programmer. Like Muslix64 he bought an HD-DVD system what won't play HD-DVDs because the monitor doesn't support it. This happened in mid-December - the same time as Muslix64. And a week or so before Muslix64 made his announcement he was talking to a crypto expert who's been examining the AACS/HDVP protection in Windows - the author of the article.
- gcnaddict, on 10/12/2007, -9/+20"if you dont like DRM, DONT USE DRM STUFF!!"
I have to agree with Crackers here. Most of you guys complaining about DRM also happen to not use anything which has any DRM on it in the first place. Just continue living your DRM-free lives and you guys will be fine. This only affects people who don't download their movies. As for linuxlizard, the XPS document format was released for developers to utilize royalty-free. The office xml specifications are also easy enough to read into a 3rd party app because they aren't binaries. XML is a beautiful thing.
(You know, if you're that concerned, I'm willing to bet that it'll be cracked anyway) - 13tongimp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11I had an Amiga 500 back in 1990. That thing was freaking awesome.
- RedLion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10MacParrot: http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/03/11/1217236.shtml?tid=174&tid=1 so you think that Apple, that is backing blu-ray, won't implement the mandatory DRM requirements in order to play that format?
- WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13gm2net is correct. TPM isn't even included in the latest revs of Macs. It was only present on the first rev of Intel Macs, and never made use of. The DRM technologies in Vista are completely different from Apple's Fairplay, for example, and actually lock down critical parts of your OS from tampering by using encryption and memory address randomization, which is not cool for a computer that you own... I want to tamper with my computer...
- monkeyboy7706, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Given the lawsuits in the past microsoft have had to deal with over being anticompettive etc I don't blame them for playing safe wen the RIAA and MPAA are hiring more lawyers these days than anything else.
My hope is that the DRM gets implemented, shown to be unusable as too may people complain they cannot watch their legally purchased blue-ray/HDDVD movie without removing the DRM then finally gets turned off in a service pack for making piracy more common. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -15/+24^^ very good post and totally agree..
if you dont like DRM, DONT USE DRM STUFF!!
simple and effective. - djdole, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Can't we get a single Digg submission that doesn't start off with a biased premise?
What? Are these Digg submitters training to be Fox news reporters?!
LAME - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10If you're going to keep posting Gutman's paper why don't you bring up the fact that many of his assumptions have been debunked.
- STKD, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Unless he means that "special demotivational plaque"...
- ahhell, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14***** enough already. We get it. You guys don't like Vista. Don't use the ***** thing then!
- geoken, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11"What part of OS X uses DRM other than iTunes for purchased content?"
You know that thing that they braged about replacing the 'antiquated' bios. EFI. It's been called the basis for 'unbreakable DRM'. DRM/trusted computing was one of the main reasons intel developed it. - skywake, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12so... with windows (and OSX) you have the choice to kill all of your digital freedoms
unlike other OS' that force you into not using DRM
oh noes!
I am hoping that in the future DRM will be dead
I can avoid it... yes... but it would be better if it didn't exist - geoken, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Exactly, it's just Creative (who from my experience would rather loose a thousand customers than adress a driver/firmware issue) who has an issue. Even realtek has working drivers for Vista.
- klawz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8I think he meant OSX 10.5 - because the current OSX can't play protected HD/BLUERAY DVDs yet. And it's the MPAA folks who are dictating this DRM, not Microsoft. This isn't like iTunes where MS will make money off of the DRM (e.g. people are stuck).
- Septimus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Pathetic. Apple will also include the DRM required to playback all new content that's produced and requires the *****.
FFS. - MacParrot, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10"But Leopard will. How else do you fricking think it will be abe to play back BR and HD-DVD.
Mac apologists are sad."
Why not wait for the OS to be released before condemning it to DRM hell? Since none of us know what the OS will support natively for BR or HD-DVD playback. - clyde2801, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14If you don't agree with DRM, don't BUY OS'S THAT SUPPORT DRM. Like Vista.
- Sanchez, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14I guarantee that if microsoft could take out the DRM, they would do so without hesitation. We should be blaming the **AA's.
- Phil246, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Its what happens when you let monkeys be editors. :(
Peer moderation is a nice theory but on scales like is with digg, and the general maturity of the community around it - just wont work properly - goosnargh, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I did. The welcome screen is pretty :(
- geoken, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@wiseweasel
Can you post a link talking about encrypting the data in memory? Also how would the memory location randomization make it harder for you to control your system? All it means is that the vast majority of exploits which target static memory locations that system files are known to be loaded to will no longer work. You can still see everything in memory by doing a memory dump. - monkeyboy7706, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5So what happens when media starts coming out that needs the DRM systems, either others OS will have to implement it in some way or hack a way round it which would probably be illegal.
- kupa, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Right, because people who visit digg buy factory computers all the time? I build my own. Personally I wont be sticking Vista on any of my computers for awhile... Wait for the hype to go down, and to see how well or how bad it actually does. It is annoying though, if you're a gamer, you are pretty much forced to upgrade for DX10, at least if you look forward to playing any of the newer games =/
- Erkan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Yes, why not take a look at the recently released AmigaOS 4. It is a lightweight operating system that boots in 7 seconds.
- WiseWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -10/+14The problem is that Vista protects media by locking down access to the operating system. First, with the 64-bit version of Vista, you can't install kernel modules that Microsoft doesn't approve. They encrypt the OS's memory data, and randomize its location in memory. What all this does is block you, the user, and owner of the hardware, from accessing the internals of your own computer. If this is something you're OK with, then that's fine, but don't complain when that bites you in the ass, and your computer becomes a lot less useful than it could be because MS decided to deny you access. MacOS X doesn't lock the user out of their own OS or computer, and you're free to hack to your heart's content. Obviously, Linux and BSD distros are also great alternatives, and getting better all the time. I personally would never give up my right to screw with my OS just for a notion of security from some benevolent dictator. It's like the root account on your computer is owned by MS, and you just have a crippled 'admin' account...
- SmegFirk, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@WiseWeasel
What you say is right about the x64 kernel being locked down, but that is an extremely good thing. One of the whole problems with all previous versions of Windows was the programs could directly interact with the kernel and if it was poorly written you start to run into problems. This aspect of Vista x64 is not to prevent the user of the system getting into the depths of it... it is to stop everybody else getting into it. If a program wants to interact with the kernel, modifying in some way, it needs to be approved by Microsoft first. This should help, not hinder, the system to remain much more stable. Also, your complaints have nothing to do with DRM, it is a security issue and a very good one for people who end up using x64. *edit geoken beat me... - IQ70, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9So you guys mean it will be easy to crack the AACS LA on OSX? Do you believe that for even one moment?
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