What is Digg?150 Comments
- Waterrat, on 10/12/2007, -6/+68 WGA for XP was phase one in Microsoft's DRM for Windows...Testing the waters, as it were.
The sheep balked, but not too much...Now for phase two... - drycounty, on 10/12/2007, -8/+59Dugg. I can't freaking wait. WGA rocks!!!
/kidding - thunderer, on 10/12/2007, -6/+56"Genuine Validation" will be cracked in 3... 2... 1...
- Prelude76, on 10/12/2007, -4/+49Firefox and WGA talk at a 'party'?? woah, is it safe to assume this 'party' lacked booze, drugs, and women? :P
- becominglumberg, on 10/12/2007, -5/+47As much as we bitch about windows, I would be interested to do a scan on all posts to see which ones were coming from windows boxes. I'm going to going to risk being dugg down to oblivion on this next statement, but here goes:
For Microsoft, from a business perspective, WGA is a smart move.
MS has made itself the gold standard, and they are allowed to sell the product as they see fit (and should be able to bundle software as they see fit, honestly). No one has forced you to buy windows (no, you did not *have* to buy a dell). The choice has been yours, and will continue to be yours. However, Windows is a very attractive product, especially to those who game on PC. Somehow, along the years, we felt that we were entitled to their software, under the 'Linux is free so everything should be free so I'll just steal windows so i can game' philosophy. This is wrong.
If you hate MS and WGA, then switch. If you can't live in a world without windows, then don't complain - you are the reason MS can get away with this. - Whitey04, on 10/12/2007, -7/+42@ becominglumberg
Your absolutely right. Microsoft has a great buisness case for WGA, just like record companies love DRM. I'm going to get dugg down by windows fanboys but...
Don't buy Vista.
Its the next step in this chain: First was WGA downloads. Next is "different user experience". After this comes full up DRM (checkout or no OS). And finally (what Microsoft really wants) to lease you your OS. Didn't pay this month? Sorry, your encrypted HD can't be accessed anymore. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+36No, we just wanted to discuss it.
- neoform, on 10/12/2007, -11/+42if by balked you mean uninstalled and put XP back on, then yes.
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -1/+28Of course genuine customers will get a truly different experience to pirates.
Genuine customers have to put up with WGA problems, validations, this that and the other, while pirates just hack around it and forget about it.
When will companies realise that DRM only hurts customers, not pirates. - cazabam, on 10/12/2007, -3/+27This is the fundamental problem with 'Genuine' advantage. If you buy a genuine Rolex, you can assume you'll get a much better watch that if you buy a Rolox or a Rotex. On the other hand, if you have a Vista installation CD the only thing that stops it being 'genuine' is that you don't have a special pass from Microsoft.
The problem for Microsoft, as has already been pointed out, is that to release the full potential of the OS all you have to do is subvert the requirement for this special pass. The software is entirely genuine (i.e. it's not a cheap knock off, but the actual product sans licence) so it's more like the user has invented a Star Trek style replicator and copied a Rolex to make an identical copy. At what point is it not a Rolex any more? - DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -7/+31Or better yet just put WGA in the Chinese version, its where 90% of the pirating happens anyway.
- ThankTheCheese, on 10/12/2007, -21/+43...and phase 3 being everyone leaving Windows for Linux/OSX/GoogleOS/anything else...
- Sirocco, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27Will you still say that when your "genuine" copy of Vista ***** up and decides that it is no longer "genuine", forcing you to completely reinstall your OS?
This type of copy protection only serves to annoy legit customers. It's high time you people got that through your heads. - curunculus, on 10/12/2007, -10/+28This crap is the reason why I'm slowly transitioning from XP to Ubuntu. I dont do DRM and MS standing over my shoulder watching and logging my every move.
- EdLesMann, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18"This type of copy protection only serves to annoy legit customers. It's high time you people got that through your heads."
I know this is slightly off topic, but I just wanted to tell you that you are absolutely correct. I thought about this, but never really believed it until about 3 months ago. My dad heard a CD being played at a store, he asked the clerk who it was, and she told him who it was, the album name, and that they were sold out. So my dad goes home. The next morning he gets up and is humming along with the song he heard and decides he wants it (6am). He goes to a online music store through a link he found in windows media player and buys it. He downloads the files, clicks on play, and "error these files are protected you must have the license to play". So he reads the FAQ and finds he has to put the license key in a certain folder and all this B***S**T to get the files to play. He still cant. He calls tech support (9am) they cant figure it out so they give him a "free" download to try to get the album again and they advise him to use a different computer as they think there is something wrong with media player. So now he has the files on his laptop with ***** speakers (10am) and tech support tells him that they don't know why its not working, DRM is there to protect their content, and that if he cant get it to play then tough luck no refunds. I get called (just before 11am running on about 4 1/2 hours of sleep so I really appreciate this call) I tell him to check a few settings, that I would call back later, and I go back to sleep. One hour later (noon) I get woken up again. He figured out to get it to play, but that it was on his ***** speakers on his laptop. So he moved the files over to the computer that plays through the living room speakers, set it up exactly the same and now neither system would play because it did some more B***S**T DRM checks. Tech support says that moving from one computer to another is a clear violation and that he def is not getting a refund and basically says screw off. So I go over (1 pm) I look at it (granted I am not fully awake and I am kinda pissed) and I spend 15min just letting it do its stupid checks. So I download a program to "contact" a few *cough* friends *cough* and I get the mp3s. I tell him to keep the files, receipt, and all the records of the conversation. I figure he has bought the album, gone through hell and back with Tech Support over the F***ing DRM, and has the files, so whose going to care? He now has the MP3's, he can listen to them anywhere he wants to, make cd's to listen to them in his car, and I can go back to sleep (which I did a little after 2pm).
Basically, 8 hours of frustration for the customer to get files that he couldn't use in a format that he couldn't distribute even though he legally bought them...that's the DRM experience.
Less then 20 min to get the files, and I can use them anywhere I want however I want whenever I want with absolutely no frustration...that's the "Piracy" experience.
To re-quote you "This type of copy protection only serves to annoy legit customers."
Now imagine this with an OS. BTW I would not classify my dad anywhere close to the "computer illiterate" seeing as how he started using computers with the old flip switch systems, started writing C code when it started getting popular, and still uses computers actively (just doesnt keep up-to-date with all the new trends/topics anymore). DRM gave him (and their Tech Support) this many problems, how much worse is it for others? - cybertragic, on 10/12/2007, -13/+30The other day I met these 1337s in a party, n we ended up talkin about our favorite software.
They were all like they can't understand why people still use ie when we have firefox and how all the best software is free n stuff n vlc n azureus n ubuntu n yada yada yada. When my turn came to choose my favorite piece i was like, "i think windows genuine advantage validation tool is pretty cool. Dunno how'd i have managed without it."
First there was like complete silence n then when they realized i was kiddin all those drunken bastards were rollin on the floor laughin.
Pretty sad i guess when the best thing about a party happens to be a joke on wga. - TeacherOfHeroes, on 10/12/2007, -5/+22Since MS is selling 4 or 5 variations of windows, each with a "truly different experience", could this be interpreted as them offering a free version of the OS that just has even fewer features than the lowest cost 'Starter' version?
It sounds to me like they're condoning piracy by making this "agreement". - ShrimpCrackers, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21You know, why not just make a Free Windows edition, and just have it have basic features everyone needs. Then sell a commercial version. Its not like some pirates aren't going to figure out a way within months if not weeks out of Windows schemes. Might as well/
- MrUnderbridge, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21"Sounds like they have finally accepted the fact they can't stop people pirating their OS."
Not quite right. More like, they finally admitted that they'd rather people pirate their OS than pay for someone else's. You see, that whole monopoly thingie.
This is a smart move. They get to legally protect their monopoly through wink-n-nod attitude to piracy by non-commercial customers, but still give customers a reason to buy it (well, theoretically of course).
Smart move in theory, but I have every confidence they'll screw it up. - havenoclu, on 10/12/2007, -6/+22Wow...how long has it been since you got on a linux box? Sounds like your opinion on linux is based off of knowledge gained ~5-10yrs ago when you tried using it for half an hour...eventually deciding nothing worked and it was too complicated.
- Rosewood, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16The reason it was phase one for XP was because they didn't really care if people hacked it and bypassed it. Hell, that was better for them! Now they know the tricks and have beefed it up. WGA is the key to the vista multiple sku strategy. If WGA doesn't work right, the multiple sku thing is just going to be a big fat waste of time.
- Shrimp, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15And if you have a perfectly legal copy of Vista, but no internet connection, so it can't "validate" the legality of your Windows install - are you going to have a half-crippled OS?
- chieffy, on 10/12/2007, -9/+22"Vista Will Be Loaded With WGA"
You're kidding! No really, what did you expect from your over-inflated, monopolistic overlords?
...chase them moths away with a flame thrower eh MS? - Whitey04, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16@becominglumberg
No, they don't have a right for you to depend on them. They have a monopoly and by leasing the software hold an extortion over you. The same way a digg story had a parking garage with cars stuck in it because the city didn't pay the software service fee.
I don't expect my Computer and all my software which together can be worth houndreds to tens of thousands to be completely dependent on the whim of a single company without competition. - cazabam, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Fully agreed. Like so much DRM, this basically amounts to the actually licenced users constantly having to prove that they are NOT running unlicenced software.
- Prelude76, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13yes, the micorosft crew are very poor and are struggling to pay for their children's health care.
*roll eyes* - Ryosen, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Whitey04's statement about Microsoft's goals for the OS should come as no surprise to anyone. Microsoft said years ago that they wanted to move their software to a subscription model. They actually tried this once before with Office (iirc) but were very quickly shutdown. Today, however, the market is more accepting of subscription-based software so this is not all that far-fetched.
My personal opinion is that Microsoft wouldn't be able to pull this off, however, so I'm not very worried. I'm not a Linux "fan-boy" (tho I practically insist on it on the server-side whenever possible), but with the great progress that Linux has been making on the desktop, I think that it will be ready to beat out Windows for marketshare should Microsoft move to the subscription model for the OS post-Vista.
That said, I feel Microsoft has the right to protect their operating system. Of course, those protections have to work infallably, which WGA doesn't. Then again, I won't be moving to Vista, so it's not going to affect me. - Arkonnan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12@banedd
I don't think the problem is with WGA so much as it is with DRM in general. Microsoft has successfully transitioned from creating software for consumers to creating software for content providers. Just look at how anti-user-friendly various applications have become. Take Windows Media Center for example. You can't take screenshots, and you can't edit the video to remove parts of the recording because the dvr-ms files are wrapped in a DRM scheme. These are two features which are common to any other recording program, such as the Wintv2k suite that comes with Hauppauge cards. It may not seem like a big deal to most. But then, you take away the user's freedom a little bit at a time and they either won't notice or won't care much. It's only a screenshot, right? This is only the beginning, and it's not going to get any better. - TeacherOfHeroes, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"Then after an online registration Windows update downloads the rest"
As hard as this may be for some people to realize, some people's internet connection still sucks; like dial-up.
Some peoples internet connection doesn't exist.
Other OSes like Linux often have package managers - but those downloadable packages are all optional add-ons.
Sounds like what you're saying would require a fast internet connection for every PC in every house that wants to use Windows.
The installation CD *should* contain everything that you need to get a functional OS.
Also, if OS X can have its TPM dependancy removed for generic x86 hardware, I think that someone will just make their own Vista DVD with all this "extra" stuff built in, then put it online. - thunderclap, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14To Darkchyld and the others: Vista will break. And when it does, what happens to your paid for genuine status. It could go to pirate status and then what. You whine and run to someone to fix it.
I work on Windows. That is what the letters MCSA mean and I don't like WGA. It works poorly. So please go chew grass and bleet elsewhere, Because if you think that software will ever be unpirateable or uncopyable, you don't know how software works. WGA exists because MS still hasn't accepted that the problem is Asian counties with different beliefs on IP not joe what you know making a second copy for mom and pop. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10WGA? HAHAHAHAHA!!! - I know some guys who are working on a fix for that piece of garbage. Expect a crack in few days after the RTM release of Vista.
- fantasticjon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I think the complaint has more to do how microsoft is going about trying to protect their software, than the fact that they are trying to protect it.
Here is a fear I have. What happens in 10 years when vista is obsolete and microsoft ends its life cycle. Then your HDD dies, so you go to load your trusty copy of vista on a new HDD in the same computer, but guess what. there is no server running for you to validate to. Now you have to buy Windows 2015 which is total bloatware. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12I use bought & paid for genuine Windows software too, have always done, but I don't want a ***** WGA system either. I want a system that doesn't nag me, piss me off with this kind of ***** when I've already paid the money and don't expect to be treated like a ***** criminal. I want to go back to the days when I could go into a store, buy the OS, load it onto my machine, put the little sticker on the box, type in the OEM and never have to think about it again until the next upgrade. That's what I want, as a user of genuine Windows software since Windows 3.11.
I don't expect to have to put up with bloat-and-nag ***** because of Microsoft's ***** business model. - fantasticjon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10I think they are shooting themselves in the foot. Its usually technical people who pirate software and its usually the same technical people who support software for companies. If those people start migrating to other platforms, then they will be more likely to move their organizations to those platforms.
Personally, I hope they make it so secure that it is impossible to pirate. Then people will finally move away from windows. - MarkHarrison, on 10/12/2007, -1/+87of7
There are two very different groups of people who complain about WGA.
1: The "everything must be free, cos I want it" crowd, who want to pirate stuff, and believe that Microsoft should be a charity that employs lots of programmers to create software it then gives away for free.
2: The "I'm happy to pay for this, but I wish it worked better" crowd, who are (with some justification) concerned that their lives will be made worse because their legitimate copies of Windows stop working and they waste hours trying to make things work again.
I support your comments as they apply to group 1, but have suffered in the past as a member of group 2 before :-(
M. - ItNeverEnds, on 10/12/2007, -13/+20Is anyone really surprised by this?
- PixelVision, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16The thing is, WGA is well known for saying legitimate copies of XP were fake. Buying Vista might not be the best way of ensuring you dont get locked out of your own computer.
- binary64, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Well said. Think that's thier current success model. I pirate stuff for home use for testing/etc. - espesially in vmware, then I have the confidence and knowledge to recommend to my clients to buy Microsoft this and that. If I can no longer crack DRM/WGA/etc, I will move on to other operating systems and recommend those.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -16/+23or, gasp- pay for something
- int19h, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8At Digg, popularity rules, not "is this news?". Popular articles can be news, but doesn't have to be. Complicated?
- goblindegook, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9The validation required button only works if you're using IE. If you have Firefox, Opera or any other browser that's not an IE shell, you have to download a lame ass executable to your hard drive and run that in order to validate Windows.
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Well it's safe to say you didn't get it from a torrent.
- Rosewood, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9It won't be. Any time a hack comes out, there will be an update that you will have to have or you won't be genuine. If you aren't genuine, then you will be locked out of certain vista features depending on your sku. Also, if you aren't genuine you might as well be a pirate in their eyes.
So yes, it may get cracked but that is only going to be good enough so unscrupulous vendors can sell their wares. For those of us who are just cheap and don't want to buy Vista? WGA is going to force us into stealing it ... in a slightly different way. - HonoredMule, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"...you have NOTHING to worry about if you actually pay for the OS you use..."
If I believed that for even a fraction of a second...well I dunno what but of course I don't. WGA is content control, and the OS isn't the important content that WGA controls. It's MY computer and all MY files, but MS is placing itself in a position to hijack them. If it doesn't scare you that MS has more authority/control over your hardware and data than you do, you're a fool.
"Microsoft [recalled my OS version/said I didn't make a payment in time/declared my hardware obsolete/suspended support for my OS/switched to subscription services only] so now I [can't run my computer/can't read my encrypted harddrive, even on another machine/had my user account wiped/just got hit by a exploit of a vulnerability MS won't be patching/can't afford to keep my OS/have all my software locked behind an obsolete API/have internet access locked out].
Mix and match to make your own scare story. Some will sound extreme, others likely. But they're all totally unacceptable, even the ones that could ostensibly happen in vista. - Ryosen, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Continuing TeacherOfHeroes' comment, having to download the "streamed" part of the OS, its continual updates to remain compliant, and countless patches to counter new work-arounds, all over a required broadband connection wouldn't be that much of a problem if the use of Vista wasn't compulsory on new machines sold with the OS. Since Microsoft requires the installation of Windows on the vast majority of new PCs, most users will have little choice but to use it. Yes, you can install XP over it (provided MS' activation server will allow you - don't count on it), but for most users re-installing the OS is beyond their technical abilities.
And before I get flamed for that comment, please remember that running the setup disc isn't all that is required, and most users have a difficult time with drivers, patches, installaing applications, and all the other things that go into building a system. Remember, they have to start from a fresh install - they can't use the OEM system restore CD since that would just put them right back to square one with Vista. - gaijintendo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Sounds a bit like you want "Windows Starter Edition", Which should be out next year. I am not sure if it will be free or just cheap. It currently complains if your computer is too good, as it is intended only for the low end win95 user.
- chrism2202, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I'm sorry, I missed the part where they were making my computing experience more enjoyable? I need to buy 60 Gigs of RAM and 2 Terabytes of Hard disk space to run this damn OS. Not to mention the new PC. In addition, I'll need 30 minutes to boot the damn thing just to get PAST all that Validation. No thanks.
I'll be migrating to a MAC before I upgrade to VISTA. - becominglumberg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Being the wealthiest man in the world, I'm going to assume Bill (and now his successors) know how to market software a little better than the collective at Digg. Just my insight.
- ray901, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@DigitalDud
"The init process in distros like Debian/Ubuntu alone is way too complicated for one person to understand"
Thousands of successfull installs would indicate that not everyone is as thick as you.
As far as WGA goes, I don't see the problem with MS doing what they want with their software. If it's a pain in the arse you can walk away and use something else - if you don't feel that anything else suits your needs then close your eyes, take a deep breath and relax in the warm bosom that is Microsoft - because it will only get worse and you are not going anywhere. - thomasprebble, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Maybe we will be seeing a free add supported Windows soon then.
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