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202 Comments
- trooz1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+88Even if it wasn't Bush, the collection of this data is, as far as I can tell, unconstitutional. The toothfairy could be collecting these numbers, and it wouldn't make it any less wrong. And I'm becoming sick and tired of this "war on terror" *****, that's freaking everyone out and allowing others to slowly chip away at our rights. Frankly, the "terrorists" are probably happy that we are slowly tearing ourselves apart from the inside. We have enough problems that we aren't dealing with in this country that are more dangerous to our nation than terrorism. Where's the "war on heart disease"? Or the "war on obesity"? Hell, there might as well be a "war on shark attacks". There's a fishing expedition for you!
- noisey, on 10/12/2007, -22/+70Normally I would think this is a necessary part of the "war on terror". But, I don't trust this administration and certainly don't trust Bush. That crazy right-wing bible belt wacko and his neocon cronies are going to do whatever they want with this data.
One thing about the article confuses me:
" The company said, "Verizon does not, and will not, provide any government agency unfettered access to our customer records or provide information to the government under circumstances that would allow a fishing expedition." "
Fishing Expedition? I'm missing something here... - Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29@The Ronald
The Telecom Act of 1996 makes it illegal for any government agency to gather CPNI data (Customer Proprietary Network Data aka phone calls and gps information) without a warrant. More to the point of the laws, it makes it illegal for the phone companies to hand over the information. With a minimum $1000 fine for each persons information handed over.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode47/usc_sec_47_00000222----000-.html
The government has every right to gather the data WITH A WARRANT. That's the part that is repeatedly getting the GoP into trouble. They are trying to act as a unitary executive and ignore the other two branches of government. Personally I see it as a treasonous attack on constitutional government. Given a choice I'd put BushCo in front of a firing sqaud on Faux news. It's a fond dream, but realisticly I'd settle for their impeachment. - Saintlink, on 10/12/2007, -12/+30The people in the South aren't the only ones that don't seem to mind Big Brother that much. Instead of insulting those who don't know much about this matter I suggest explaining to them why you think this is unconstitutional and why it needs to be abolished. Educate the ignorant, we'll need them if this fight is to be won.
- Odweaver, on 10/12/2007, -6/+24@noisey
Sure, I agree that it is wrong and needs to be dealt with, but you just come out as a complete jackass when you hurl broad and baseless insults at a group you are trying to get to side with you.
Its like if a religious nutjob ran up to you saying you are a evil heretic and are going to hell unless you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, you stupid prick!
My point is, you should make a rational arguement rather than hurl insults at those you are trying to convince. - benhocking, on 10/12/2007, -0/+18But, laws can't override the Constitution. Constitutional amendments are required to do that.
- Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14@Slonkak
Unfortunately the Patriot Act does NOT allow illegal searches in any case. It does allow several types of searches and surviellance, with a court approval. Even if it did allow searches without a warrant, the 4th amendment hasn't been repealed, and could not be overrulled by anything less than another amendment. - lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16@andyengle
Your logic is flawless.
If we take away all of our own freedoms, the terrorists won't have a reason to attack us anymore? I call BS. People don't hate us around the world because we are free and we have rights, they hate us because we keeping screwing with their politics and supporting leaders who will look out for our interests instead of the interests of their own people. - lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13I can see part of your point. I mean who is calling whom doesn't really matter because it is an "outside of the envelope" issue. That basically means that it isn't a crime for the government to track what is on the outside of an envelope in the mail, but they must get a warrant to see what is on the inside. That is just my opinion, IANAL or judge.
But the idea that they are doing whatever they want without a warrant only suggests to me that whatever it is they are doing, they wouldn't be allowed a warrant for. I think that most people thought that the government already had access to call records (if it is true or not) so that revelation doesn't really shock the public. Plus with all of these different "secret" things being revealed within close proximity to each other, it is hard for the public to tell what is a new revelation, from some one rehashing an old one.
All politics aside, the only way we are going to pin down the administration and find out what happened and how our rights were violated and to what extent is to get a majority for Democrats in the House and Senate. This is because any party (Republican or Democrat) is not going to launch an investigation against their President.
Before you mod me down for that statement, let me say that it would be the same situation if it was a role reversal. It's my opinion that both parties are corrupt because it is a duopoly. There isn't any real competition on service because it's a "me or the other guy" choice. It's time for the government to apply "deregulation" to itself and give Americans a real choice. - diecastbeatdown, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13@trooz1
the "war on terror" is a very common method of keeping citizens in check. it worked for just about every fascist government out there. paranoia and fear are great tools to keep people in a state of blind obedience and confusion. - Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Learn what the rulings really said. Yes the government can legally spy on US citizens. The police do it every day, regardless of the NSA. The problem isn't the spying, it's doing it without a warrant or oversight. What they are doing is not illegal, HOW they are doing it is illegal
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Understand that this spying is on DOMESTIC calls...not international ones...that's a whole other ballgame than what has previously been discussed regarding call monitoring.
- lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13We did pass an amendment back in 1791 addressing this. It reads:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
It has a purpose for criminal suspects, but another point of it is to say that Americans have the right to be secure in their persons, to keep things to themselves. A right to privacy. If we had no right to privacy, the government wouldn't need warrants. - londoneconomist, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15@andyengle
You're operating under the assumption that these government organizations are actually capable of defending us from anything.
Homer: Well, there's not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol is sure doing its job.
Lisa: That's specious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, sweetie.
Lisa: Dad, what if I were to tell you that this rock keeps away tigers.
Homer: Uh-huh, and how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work. It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: I see.
Lisa: But you don't see any tigers around, do you?
Homer: (Looks around) Lisa, I'd like to buy your rock.
Specious reasoning indeed. - rcook, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Most will go to the lawyers. Customers will get a $25 discount coupon for their next bill. Then they will get a 15% rate hike to cover the cost of the lost lawsuit. Verizon loses. The customers lose. The lawyers win.
- londoneconomist, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13I think I have some real estate for you in Germany, set your time machine to 1933.
- Skye16, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13@andyengle
I guess these terrorists don't scare me nearly as badly as our government does.
I mean, if you're so terrified of people breaking in your house and need protection that badly, why not just ask the government to station a police officer in your bedroom to watch you at all times? It's for your own protection, after all.
If you're insane enough to sacrifice your privacy for safety, then so be it. You "americans" make me sick. You're supposedly proud to be part of this country, but when it comes to defending the constitution and the rights it protects, you sacrifice it the moment it looks like your life may even be remotely in danger. You're not an american. You're a goddam pussy. - thedonga, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10the laws weren't changed...they were disregarded. There is nothing on the books that changes the telecommunications act.
- JasonPrini, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10Which war is that again, I'm having a hard time keeping up with your wars...
War on drugs, War on Terrorism, War on smut, War on piracy, War on anthing-that-challenges-the-status-quo?
There's probably a few more, it is Monday after all.. :P - rcook, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12No, they got a list of all the completed calls, inlcuding the originating phone number and the destination phone number. Those call records are not public.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10"can it ever be abused?"
then it needs oversight.. all other questions about legality about fear and national secuirty are moot.
This is the only true question that matters. - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@JK
Wiretapping WITHOUT A WARRANT is un-american and patently illegal. It's a rogue program that couldn't be farther from our national interests.
If you want to slavishly obey a corrupt government that has no limits on its power, China looks to be your new favored nation, bucko.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out. - soyverde, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12@TheRonald
Show me one place you can LEGALLY buy my/your phone records...
I don't actually have a problem with the information being collected, but I do have a problem with the phone company selling this information without my consent. The issue here (as far as I'm concerned) is there was no subpeona issued, rather the phone companies just have revenue-generating contracts in place in which they sell the gov't phone records. Collect 'em all you want, but I want my farking discount from AT&T, Verizon, etc. - Niffer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12Where's Gentrix? He usually has something crazy to say about topics like this.
I for one am sick of this ***** with wire tapping. I remember hearing an official say awhile ago that the computers that monitor every call look for specific words and clues like "jihad" and ***** like that. I say we call our friends at least once a day and only say "jihad" (unless you have something to hide, then that would be a bad idea.) That way the conversation might sound something like this:
Me: "Jihad! Jihad jihad?"
Friend: "Ah, jihad. Jihad jihad jihad."
Me: "Oh, jihad. ***** Bush jihad."
If everyone does it, someone is bound to get prosecuted. Then we have a real lawsuit on our hands. - thedonga, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11this is clearly an illegal act without a court order...at&t bellsouth and verizon should pay heavy fines....and everyone who can should switch to QWEST who refused to hand over such data without a court order.
- benhocking, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12So, are you allowed to convert the word jihad into adjective and adverb form, too? I'm thinking something along the lines of the Smurfs.
Jihad that jihadly jihad! Gargamel! - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10The Bush administration has, so far, changed their story 3 times this month on what those records consist of.
First they denied any monitoring of american citizens.
Then they claimed they were only monitoring overseas calls.
Then they claimed they were only monitoring the log entries of 40 million domestic callers.
I'm sure we're not all the way down to the truth yet. There's a REASON they didn't request warrants for this program. And "We didn't believe one was required" is not the honest answer.... - lane.montgomery, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13You can't realy quantify how much it would hurt the NSA seeing as how their budget is classified.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9I wouldnt want to fight for a freedom lost.
I would fight for the pre 9/11 america
but not so sure about this one.
Now we have freedom zones
fake news
a president that fights for torchure and rendition
I dont even reconise this country any more and it only too just a feww short years. - EndrWiggin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I can't believe some of the idiocy in these posts. I registered on Digg just to respond. First of all, the "War on Terror" is totally, 100%, complete ***** and anyone who thinks otherwise has their head in the sand. Terror by definition is a reaction, a feeling, something that can't be won over by war, propaganda, freedom or otherwise. The "War on Terror" can NOT be won by any means whatsoever. It's like trying to win a war on light, you can close your eyes, but it will always be there in some form or another. As long as humans populate this earth, there will always be hate and always be "terror". But remember there will always be love and happiness as well (didn't want to leave the point sounding so depressing)
Anybody who spouts off 9/11, 9/11, 9/11 as justification for spying on Americans is completely and totally disrespectful of the victims of that day. The entire point of September 11th was to change the way we live our lives. That's the definition of terrorism, terrorizing and changing your targeted society. By changing the way we do business, pass laws, and conduct intelligence is falling right into the hands of "terrorists". You want to say "***** you" to terrorism? Don't allow the neo-conservative/New world order movement to burn the Constitution. Build the towers exactly how they were to tell those who knocked it down "Look, we didn't change anything. You had no effect on us whatsoever."
Not to mention that NSA programs such as this is against everything the CIA and NSA has taught since the beginning, which is "NEVER SPY ON AMERICANS". Anyone who knows history also knows that the Nazis prior to and during WWII conducted very similar spying operations on the citizens of Germany to pick out dissenters and those who they wished to exterminate. I'm certainly not saying Bush is Hitler (though there are those who could argue for the validity of such a claim), but we have to stop things like this now before somebody takes advantage of programs like these to use against Americans. - jonesin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Preserving and defending the nation does not mean destroying the ideals upon which our glorious country was founded.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7There are many things a business can do but it is illegal for the government to do the same thing.
I can refuse to service anyone i choose. Lets see a town refuse for no reason to let your kids go to school.
I can collect cookies on my website, hmmm how come the government cant?? I mean it is just a freaken cookie come on i barely think of them as spyware anymore? Because people don't trust the people in governement to handle our data properly.
I get so sick of the arguements "well if other people can do it why not the gov" well other people dont have the power over me the governement does. - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7... in a dictatorship.
- Elohir, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14>you're insane! Do you know how bad it would be for our national security if NSA lost 5 billion in funding?
No. Do you? - coolgeek61813, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6The idea of a phone record database by itself would not be that disturbing, if it were an isolated incident. If this were so it could be easily fixed though Congressional hearings as cumbersome as those are. but it seems as though there is a growing trend in the government of the gradually eroding civil liberties. this is what is truly disturbing
- EtherGnat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6n8r0n wrote: "Are you aware that it was Clinton who signed this executive order (EO 12949), quit blaming Bush for everything."
* EO 12949 grants no authority to the NSA.
* It requires that the Attorney General certify that the search will not involve "the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person."
* The government has allegedly been collecting this information since shortly after 9/11/01, but the order limits duration of searches to one year.
* I find nothing in the Order that allows mass gathering of data for fishing expeditions.
This is not a partisan issue. It involves key separation of power and civil liberty issues that are essential to our Constitution. I think the issue deserves at least as much attention as what the President chooses to do with his cigars in the oval office. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6None of this really matters
they will whisper "state secrets" and the judiciary with throw it out.
Hell they torchured a guy and had that cas thrown out becaause they didnt want to reveal they have secret prisons which of course we all know they do.
We need a supreme court rulling on the constant and politcal use of the "state secrets" clause - stark23x, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Watching Digg's braintrust argue this issue has been higly entertaining this week. Almost no one has actually researched this. Almost no one knows what laws apply, or how a lawsuit is filed, or who is responsible, or even what frigging data is in question.
Amazing. - Grimdotdotdot, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12I'm pretty sure the American Government can afford it.
How much is the Gulf war costing?
$289,608,432,311 at the moment, according to http://zfacts.com/p/447.html - Skye16, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8awww, miket...you're confused!
i don't hate *god*
i hate _you_.
maybe, to you, they seem one and the same, but from our perspective, it's comparing apples and piles of *****. - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Yes. A dozen evil guys armed with utility knives hijacked planes and crashed them into buildings, killing innocent people.
The guys, Saudi Arabians and Pakistanis, were based out of Afghanastan. We overthrew the govt of Afghanistan in the search for their group leader, whom we failed to find.
Then for a completely unrelated reason we spent 500 Billion dollars invading Iraq., set up a network of secret torture prisons, created a level of secret trial even further removed from American justice than a military tribunal, with secret evidence...
And we're really not much safer or better off for any of it.
So that 9/11 thing... they guys that did it are dead. Their leader, we've repeatedly failed to catch despite our tremendous "intelligence" costs, and the war in Iraq became the best recruitment tool they ever had, swelling their ranks from a few hundred right wing fundamentalist extremists to tens of thousands who just have a good reason to hate america.
People like you gave the terrorists more than they ever dreamed of, by perverting America into a nation ruled by fear. - Corvidae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Telecom act of 1934 and 1996 were both broken and both have sections directly relating to call information. So there is a reasonable public expectation of privacy. Smith should have gone for appeal on the grounds of judicial ignorance.
- Murdats, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@andyengle
wow, the american government must love people like you.
I mean believing all their stories just because they say so without evidence.
"What would you call the liberation of MILLIONS of people in Iraq and Afghanistan"
you mean the liberation of those who didnt ask for it, telling them they have to use your system of government
those same people who's previously surpressive government was supported and funded by the american government
you love this same government that would tell you that if you give us your privacy and other essential liberties, we will stop the terrorists from hurting you
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin
next you will be saying you support the concept of a secret police (though who knows if it exists yet or not, you know being secret and all) if they keep the terrorists away
try reading up on a little history in the years of 1933–1945 on a little country called germany
try playing a palying a little game of substitution
hitler->bush
jews->terrorists
propaganda machine->your favourite news station
germany-> america
1933–1945->now
see how it reads now
though you have managed to cause me to understand how the american government can get away with things like this if they have amongst their population people like you, thank you for clarifying this issue for me
(and sorry about the long post) - jefree, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6This collecting of phone data by the NSA is purely wrong. The "War on Terror" is fear mongering and ultimately about leveraging control and it doesn't know national boundaries. The NSA is a tool of this effort. Think about where all this is going. Where do you think it ends. It doesn't. Please Stop giving away your rights and thereby weakening everybody else's liberty as well. This issue affects society and your quality of life on a great many levels. I don't think people see that.
- jmuchrisf, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11you're insane! Do you know how bad it would be for our national security if NSA lost 5 billion in funding? Completely aside from this debacle, the "honest" work they do would take a nasty nasty hit.
- miketrin, on 10/12/2007, -7/+12You pro bush nut cases are the closed minded, uneducated fools that ruin this great country. The constitution is the law of this land. It's not up to some ***** coke-head drunk to change the constitution at his will just because he's fighting an illegal war! (yes you cry baby republican wackos, it's illegal because congress never declared war and bush lied to start it) I suggest you look into going back to college and get an education.
- wild, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"There will be no war on heart disease...The cure to heart disease is Vitamin C"
Thats *****. As someone born with a congenital heart defect, and who has a 4 year old niece with a pacemaker, I can tell you that Vitamin C is not the miracle I need in my war to survive past my 40s. To say that doctors would intentionally prevent lifesaving advancements in the desire to make money is absolutely assanine. Telling people that Vitamin C is all they need is irresponsible and dangerous.
Take a bite of reality, heart disease won't be solved with a multi-vitamin. - thedonga, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5podcastnyc...even if I would agree that checking who everyone is calling is a good thing in the situation we are in now....I can never agree that the government and companies should just disregard the laws of this country because they think it's best for us.
This is an illegal act...read the telecommunications act of 96, section 222...there is no gray area here...this was illegal. - Patriot-X, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Ring, ring.
US: Hello, I'm Agent Doe with the Government. I need information on domestic phone calls in order to prosecute the War on Terror.
TELCO: Bugger off. It's a free country.
US: Hm. Maybe YOU have ties with the Terrorists? And doesn't the FCC own the phone systems? How are your tax records, by the way. Tell you what, you shove your free country and play ball, or I will have my cousins, Agent Airwaves and Agent Taxes come and pay you a visit.
TELCO: I see your point. You want that tab-delim., PDF?
PUBLIC: Sue the Telco! Sue the Telco!
PATRIOT-X: Texas, secede. - databyss, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4The patriot act still requires a warrant.
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