What is Digg?Sponsored by HowLifeWorks
New Food Sprinkle Convinces the Brain to Stop Over-Eating view!
howlifeworks.com - How sophisticated scents are helping people control their appetite and lose weight
61 Comments
- klitzbtc, on 02/07/2009, -7/+39I think MySQL might be the only exception, but it seems that everything Sun has bought up these days just ends up convoluted with Java and it most of the time also destroys the project. Some cases like OpenOffice, and VirtualBox might be the exception, but give it time and I'm sure they'll bloat both of those applications up beyond all reasonable recognition.
If I worked at Sun I'd be very unsatisfied too, it makes you think about what the hell could be going on in there. Java hasn't made an significant advances as a language in almost 4 years. Give it time, and as much as I hate saying it, .NET is going to trump Java as the leading enterprise solution.
Sun needs to get their heads out of their own asses and start looking at redefining themselves and their products, or they're going to lose to MS and open-source alternatives.
/rant about how much I despise Java. - Barbas06, on 02/06/2009, -0/+29I remember when everybody at MySQL was happy with the acquisition by Sun. I guess 1 billlion $$$ can be quite the smoke-screen...
- SEN5241, on 02/07/2009, -2/+25MyBurger
Select lettuce, onion, tomato, mustard, cheese from burger_options where size = 'double_patty'; - inactive, on 02/07/2009, -0/+22Waiter! My database is not cooked enough.
- pintocat, on 02/07/2009, -0/+20Causes skin cancer, kills innocent vampires...
- cplusplus, on 02/07/2009, -0/+18I recommend hiring a good cook and waiters instead of worrying about what database the restaurant uses.
- cloudberries, on 02/07/2009, -0/+14Select * from delicious_toppings as yum inner join tasty_breads as noms on (yum.tastiness = noms.yumminess) where noms.potential_sandwich_awesomeness > 10
I have no idea where I'm going with that. I just want a sandwich. - HonoredMule, on 02/07/2009, -4/+14Java is unduly verbose and convoluted, and the design patterns, libraries, and anything else tied to Java tend to be so generalized and abstracted as to make even the simplest projects very complicated to do properly.
Java is the only language where you can design and write an entire system architecture as a collection of interfaces and abstracts, without a lick of actual implementation, just an endless cacophony of APIs and empty objects that don't actually handle or accomplish anything individually. When you program in Java, you are expected to check your core understanding of operating systems, typical communication protocols, and databases at the door in exchange for a whole new plane of abstract alphabet soup. Everything you know and understand gets wrapped up in something you don't know that's trying to hide the details you understand and know haven't gone away. Where before you might have needed to know and use http headers, for example, you now have to coax a black box to do the same thing when it doesn't want you to know there's such a thing as http headers.
Java is designed to give you something when you don't know what you want, and punishes you for knowing what you want and trying to specify it (or for having non-Java experience and expecting to 'get to the point' the same way you do in other languages). It thrives in an ecosystem where there are only a very few highly experienced experts and an endless supply of useless code monkeys acting as the transcribers of their project leader's class-localized instructions--where large-scale enterprise projects need to be able to scale up by adding man-hours and without adding core competence, and where project leaders are too good for simple solutions.
There's an extensive documentation system which with hardly any effort produces reams of useless reiteration of the code. But any attempt to provide real documentation that explains how things work, how they fit together, or how they should be used is better left to a wiki or other unrelated system. It seems even the best tutorials and writers of tutorials avoid Java in favor of pretty much any other language.
I can't really say I've encountered ANY language like it. Sure the syntax resembles that of any C-like language, but the similarity ends there. Java is for people who don't mind carefully abstracting core ideas even when literal, non-abstract understanding leads straight to a simple and straightforward implementation. The theory is that the abstraction brings scalability of implementations, re-usability of components, and the ability to expand a program well beyond its original purpose if necessary. The theory is technically correct, yet never quite works out...at least not without another layer of abstraction. At the ultimate end of this path I see a singularity of perfection and total enlightenment, but all we'll ever get out of it is "42." - ripter, on 02/07/2009, -3/+12I agree, Java Sucks balls.
As a .Net programmer, all I have to say is 'Python rules!' - laelfrog, on 02/07/2009, -0/+7The Java programming language isn't the only thing that runs on the Java Virtual Machine. If you don't like the Java language then pick a different one, (Groovy, JRuby, Jython, Scala, Clojure, etc...). Who says Java (the language) has to make any significant advances?
The .NET framework is not going to trump the Java platform in the enterprise anytime soon.
Personally, I like having an open platform and the lack of a platform Vendor lock-in.
Remember folks, The Java Language != The Java Platform - notyourbroom, on 02/07/2009, -1/+7"He also intends to open a restaurant that will use database technology to improve the customer experience."
Which sounds great, until you run into a poorly-placed DROP TABLE command. - beand1p, on 02/07/2009, -0/+5do one of you guys want to do my access sql homework?
- HonoredMule, on 02/07/2009, -1/+6I'll be very interested to see how diggers respond to that comment. If you feel strongly enough to dig or bury it, I hope you'll also feel compelled to offer some supporting or counter arguments.
- inactive, on 02/08/2009, -1/+6Somehow I read "Java Sucks balls" as "Starbucks"... how the hell did that happen?
- SonataNo8, on 02/07/2009, -1/+6Did you have to say "enterprise solution"?
- inactive, on 02/07/2009, -4/+9sun ruins everything it touches
- jamshid, on 02/08/2009, -0/+4Pardon the long rant: Java replaced DLL-hell with classpath-hell. Java on the desktop? Failure. J2EE? No that ended up sucking, use Spring. No wait, rewrite, use Spring 2.0. jdbc? No, use Hibernate. Servlets, Struts, Struts 2.0, JSF, Spring MVC, wtf? Worst of all is mobile: J2ME => Java ME => JavaFX, write once run everywhere? Not even close, buggy and fragmented. Applets? Buggy and bloated, not even an improvement over ActiveX.
http://andigutmans.blogspot.com/2008/03/java-is-lo ... Java is losing the battle for the modern Web. Can the JVM save the vendors?
http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/03/execution- ... Classes are really the only modeling tool Java provides you. So whenever a new idea occurs to you, you have to sculpt it or wrap it or smash at it until it becomes a thing, even if it began life as an action, a process, or any other non-"thing" concept.
I've really come around to what Perl folks were telling me 8 or 9 years ago: "Dude, not everything is an object."
It's odd, though, that Java appears to be the only mainstream object-oriented language that exhibits radically noun-centric behavior. You'll almost never find an AbstractProxyMediator, a NotificationStrategyFactory, or any of their ilk in Python or Ruby. Why do you find them everywhere in Java? It's a sure bet that the difference is in the verbs. Python, Ruby, JavaScript, Perl, and of course all Functional languages allow you to declare and pass around functions as distinct entities without wrapping them in a class.
----------------------------------
Finally, I think I think C.A.R. Hoare's old quote about PL/I could apply to Java:
"At first I hoped that such a technically unsound project would collapse but I soon realized it was doomed to success. Almost anything in software can be implemented, sold, and even used given enough determination. There is nothing a mere scientist can say that will stand against the flood of a hundred million dollars. But there is one quality that cannot be purchased in this way — and that is reliability. The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay." - cloudberries, on 02/08/2009, -0/+4Make me a BLT and it's a deal!
- RungeKutta, on 02/07/2009, -0/+4Yea I dont know wtf his restaurant idea is about. Most restaurants use some type of PoS system and depending on how ancient they are, those use databases for storage. I don't know what he's going to do exactly. If you want a "really good customer experience" either hire strippers or make good fresh food for an affordable price in a reasonable time.
- Kidtuf, on 02/07/2009, -0/+4
DBA's love it when you run ' Select * run * ' in production environments. - camilos007, on 02/07/2009, -0/+4"He also intends to open a restaurant that will use database technology to improve the customer experience"
That's pretty stupid. What's he going to do, create an index for each customer? - jcannonb, on 02/07/2009, -1/+5You are about the most uninformed database user ever. Take your open source hatred elsewhere. MySQL is by far the best diversified database platform out there. It is simply gravy that it is free. I make a damn good living using it.
- inactive, on 02/07/2009, -0/+3A MySQL restaurant. Cool. I hate food that is too ACIDic.
- jcannonb, on 02/07/2009, -1/+4Negative. More reason to wait for the creator to create a spin off from the legally open sourced code, and then hall ass at the first sign of a minimally stable version!
- stuffradio, on 02/07/2009, -2/+5I despise Java, it's pretty much the main language that gets taught at the University I attend *shivers*
- doctordbx, on 02/07/2009, -0/+3"make good fresh food for an affordable price in a reasonable time."
It's amazing how doing the simple things right work so well. - AzureRise, on 02/09/2009, -0/+3We need a best posts section to put HonoredMule's comment.
- UConnBBall, on 02/08/2009, -0/+3Quote: Some cases like OpenOffice, and VirtualBox might be the exception
Um I wouldn't say Sun had anything to do with these great products besides
1. Releasing the HORRID STAROFFICE into the Open Source World and renaming it OpenOffice.
2. VirtualBox was bought by them when VB was awesome. What has Sun done?
Look at Crank Geeks when this acquisition happened they thought this was a case of buy the product to ruin it for a kick back from Oracle and M$. Way to go Sun helping out your competition. - dazparkour, on 02/07/2009, -1/+4Not ".Net rules"?
No surprise there. - tolgafiratoglu, on 02/07/2009, -1/+4MySQL is best with PHP in developing level...I accept php has some performance problems, but for %80 of web development construction PHP+MySQL+AJAX in an MVC Framework with well developed ORM works good for me.
The only bad side is current MVC PHP Frameworks has some performance problems but I believe it'll be solved in coming years. But for sure: Python rocks. Its only problem is there're not many Python developers around so if you start a Python project you may go crazy when you can't find a good Python developer later as project goes more complex
Greatest advantage of PHP or MySQL is there're thousands of developers out there, some are really professional. - philz, on 02/07/2009, -0/+3Rather old, but still a good read: http://rollerweblogger.org/roller/entry/notes_from ...
- RobotBuddha, on 02/07/2009, -0/+2I haven't used it in ages, but the black box feeling is one I often had as well. It felt like it wanted to wrap everything to the point of obscuring the underlying properties. And that was bad, but understandable. But, then, it'd constantly be changing how that behaved version by version. Littering the net with outdated or incorrect information on how to do anything, and a graveyard of abandoned libraries.
- bearcat8543, on 02/07/2009, -2/+4im just beginning my programming classes and im in Java and ASP/.Net.
How similar is Java to other languages and why dont you like it (I already dont like Java). - gravisan, on 02/07/2009, -0/+2Roger that!
- HonoredMule, on 02/09/2009, -0/+2Put jamshid's in there too, then.
His second link is especially epic, and certainly echoes my own sentiments. The very biggest problem I see with many 'modern' approaches (and I'm a young programmer), or 'enterprise' systems, etc. is the inevitable push toward hiding the imperative nature of code itself. I cannot see how this can possibly produce a simpler or more effective system when the entire purpose of ANY software is to DO something, not simply to BE something.
If you've taken any professional/effective writing classes, you will have been taught that verbs are gods...and rightly so. Nothing is so weak and ineffectual as the continuous use of such weak verbs as 'is', 'do', 'make', or 'use'. Statements formed from such syntax--popular and common though they be in regular speech--are the primary source of vagueness, apathetic tone, and the need for complex or too-long sentence structures to form a single complete thought. Such verbs depend on a wealth of nouns to give them any meaning at all. But a talented writer will use colorful and PRECISE verbs to convey twice the information with half the text, and captivate his audience.
Keep your audience attentive to your speech and make them understand your ideas by using precise conversation.
Speak precisely to captivate your audience and attune them to your ideas.
- Which is clearer? Which is stronger?
Instead of encouraging strong, clear conversation, Java, like the weak verbs that only connect nouns, caters to the programmatic equivalent of more colloquial speech, which eases communication for less trained minds. But the result suffers irreparably. Java doesn't even /allow/ the code equivalent of my second example sentence. - a1lostnomad, on 02/07/2009, -1/+3I was dumb enough to enter my contact information to get a white paper from Sun and the next week I got two calls from Sun sales reps "reminding me" they offered commercial licenses and being general sales *****. From what I've seen, Sun is doing nothing but bastardizing a great product and community; So I don't blame him for leaving.
- HonoredMule, on 02/09/2009, -0/+2@rpgmaker: "you can find incompetent code written in any programming language, not just java."
I agree, but while you CAN shoot yourself in the foot with any gun, that's a poor argument to make when choosing a gun that lobs grenades 6 inches over a scoped rifle. I believe I kept my conversation centric to the behavioral properties of the language itself as opposed to its users, though jamshid added a lot by describing WHY it behaves that way. - bearcat8543, on 02/07/2009, -0/+2what do you like about ms-sql better than mysql.
- AzureRise, on 02/09/2009, -0/+2Too much caffeine, you're trippin.
- soogy, on 02/08/2009, -0/+2Except, of course, PostgreSQL. Haven't been very happy with MySQL since Sun acquired them.
- SEN5241, on 02/07/2009, -0/+2Disillusionment can be a tough pill to swallow sometimes.
- inactive, on 02/08/2009, -0/+2@honoredmule: I digg you up even if I don't entirely agree with what you said (those kind of comments are hard to come by on digg this days) but you can find incompetent code written in any programming language, not just java. You can find A LOT of incompetent code written in .net, while I certainly don't see the day when .net kick java out of the enterprise (as far fetched as this may sound, .net is much more inefficient than Java2EE) I agree that there are a lot of uses of java in the enterprise where other programming languages are more suited to the task.
- doctordbx, on 02/07/2009, -0/+2"He also dropped some hints about an intriguing side project. He is using his technical expertise to invent a new kind of restaurant that he says will provide a better customer experience by using databases."
I'm intrigued by this. As a marketer who has worked with "Customer Experience" (latest buzzword btw), CRM and Database marketing systems for a long time, I can't think that a programmer will bring anything new to the world of service delivery, but good luck to him all the same. He will soon find out that collecting information from customers is like trying to scoop water with a sieve. - takua108, on 02/09/2009, -0/+1Other than powering the vast majority of websites you visit.
- rakeshishere, on 02/07/2009, -1/+2*raises eyebrow*
Off late i am hearing many OSS projects almost seeing as if they are going to an END ... Openoffice,Compiz Fusion and now MYSQL
I want these projects to live and let live - klitzbtc, on 02/09/2009, -0/+1Same here.
- kitsched, on 02/10/2009, -0/+1Hillarious indeed.
DROP TABLE
LOL! :) - gravisan, on 02/07/2009, -0/+1ahahaha good one
- takua108, on 02/09/2009, -0/+1http://instantrimshot.com
Comment of the year. Too bad nobody cares about MySQL enough to read this far down. - LingNoi, on 02/08/2009, -0/+1MySQL has had problems years before it was bought by sun. I've run into times when I have gotten error messages such as "this feature is unsupported" when building websites and thinking how lame that was. There was also that infamous bug that had been in the MySQL bug tracker for years, is that even fixed yet?
This latest thing sounds like the guy is just using it as an excuse to leave after becoming burned out. -
Show 51 - 62 of 62 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is