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- shadus, on 10/11/2007, -9/+286The decline of c-sci students isn't at all related to the quality of the educational programs in the universities in most cases... it's the attitudes business have about IT.
IT is... disposable
IT is... unreliable
IT is... a waste of money
I've worked in ISPs, Medical, Government, and as a freelance contractor... and excluding the ISPs which were of course filled with IT people and run by IT people, every other place I've worked the attitude about IT was very negative. We're the "Can't do that on our budget." "Change you password." "Outsource them to India." people. Business is killing IT. They want to pay data entry wages ("All you do is sit and type on a computer all day..."), offer no long term job stability (3 buy-outs, 2 company closures, 2 lay-offs, 1 departmental closure, and 1 job I quit when a total imbecile got hired in as my boss (who had no skill as a manager or IT--peachy.) all in... 15 years.), and don't view us as valuable productive members of the staff that help MAKE the company money ("IT is our biggest money sink, it's worthless, all you do is incur ever rising expenses and expect to be given a *raise* just you trimmed some money (ed note: 120k/yr in saved paper, toner, and labor by changing the fax system to images instead of paper... which they previously rescanned into images.) off things your department buys." also mind our "ever rising expenses" were new computers... that the management wanted and that came out of our budget even though the current computers were acceptable.)
Everyone who mentions going to school for computers, I firmly explain the reality of the situation, IT sucks today because businesses don't see the value of IT. Goto school for something in the medical field or get into electronic engineering, whatever you do don't get into programming, systems/networks, or security. Take something in computers as a minor if you must but don't make that your focus unless you want to be miserable.
Gotta love it.
I want a job-- with benefits, 401k and a *reasonable* wage for the area I live in. I want some stability and I want to spend quite a few years there... and I want some respect for the work and I do and my profession.
Seems like I want to much. - kingamoon, on 10/11/2007, -17/+121You know what would improve attendance to CS classes:
TWO CHICKS AT THE SAME TIME. - joshua5, on 10/11/2007, -2/+105if ( minimalEffort == true && largeSalaryPromise == true && stableCareerPromise == true )
enrollment++;
else
enrollment--; - shifty2, on 10/11/2007, -10/+110I totally agree that CS students are in decline. My university's CS (up until 2002) used ADA95 as the programming language of choice. ADA is not a terrible language to learn, its powerful (built-in exception handling, FTW!), OOP, and stable. *****, it was used in airplane black boxes and is still used for many DB's at the DoD.
Many students complained that they were being cheated when other universities used more popular languages like Java or C++ and that putting down ADA on a resume wasn't going to help them. Eventually the university adopted Java.
also, having to take 4 different calculus classes and "computer math" classes is a HUGE turn off - shadus, on 10/11/2007, -6/+81... and obviously I type poorly when I'm angry and venting. Sorry bout that.
- naios, on 10/11/2007, -3/+75You have to realize, computer science and IT are very very different subjects. Computer Science is the science and technology behind the computer, IT is learning to work that technology and science. If you go into grad school with a CS degree and you don't understand advanced trig, calculus, or number theory, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. Concepts like RSA-encryption and data storage (at the more fundamental levels, not stuff like MySQL) are based on the "computer math" that CS majors have to learn. If you want to learn to be a code monkey, IT administrator, or low-level developer, a CS degree probably isn't designed to teach you that.
There's also the physical side of Computer Science, stuff like electrical engineering and the applied physics that goes with it. Here you're going to have to know even more calculus and mathematics (not to mention physics and some chemistry) to be able to do your job. Computer Science barely touches on setting up firewalls and administering linux domains. All that CS does is provide the technology to be able to create those tools, it's the IT side of everything that deals with using the tools.
So be careful, if you're getting a CS degree, you are not learning about being a code monkey (if that's all you choose to do with your degree, that's your choice). You're learning about the science that makes the computer go.
A good analogy is that of a car. Most mechanics can't tell you about the exact construction and function of each part of a car, but the engineer who designed it may not have the best knowledge (and I mean hands on knowledge) on how to install a new rear suspension or new transmission. Even if they were responsible for designing some of the parts and some of the components of that particular part of the car. In this case, the engineer is the computer scientist and the mechanic is the IT guy or the code monkey.
A CS degree is made to prepare computer scientists, not IT people or code monkeys. Thus the university requirements are designed with CS people in mind, not the kinds of jobs you guys are describing. - BrainInAJar, on 10/11/2007, -3/+63You illustrate an interesting point, but it's not the one you think you are
CS != "how to be a programmer"
Computer Science is, properly understood, the science of computing. In much the same way that a degree in mathematics is not intended to be "how to be an actuary", CS shouldn't be pigeonholed in to practical applications of the subject. To do so is to shortchange the students of an education.
Any monkey can learn how to program, it's not hard. It's much more difficult to understand advanced topics in computing without any formal training ( though it's by no means impossible ).
Perhaps I'm just lamenting the old style of CS education ( when the CS department were still a bunch of bearded hippies squirreled away in a lab working out the details of sorting algorithms with no regard to what it would be useful for ) - flydpnkrtn, on 10/11/2007, -4/+64jesus shadus you've got me all depressed now about my friggin career aspirations :(
the main reason you've got me depressed is a lot of you rant rings true! - AnteChronos, on 10/11/2007, -4/+57@cr4ft
"Another turnoff (like shifty2 mentioned) are the math courses you have to take. Going back to my example here in Canada, a University CS semester usually includes Programming, Advanced Trigonometry, Calculus, Computer Mathematics, etc. This means that if someone were exceptionally good in computers but had a poor background in math they wouldn't be able to advance to the course."
Which is exactly the point. Computer science is *not* IT. CS is theory-based, and is closer to majoring in math than in IT.
"The only thing people look at with the University is it's prestige, but you mostly learn theory and that's turning a lot of potentially great CS students to go the college route."
If you're not interested in theory, then you're not interested in CS. You're interested in IT or in programming, neither of which are CS. If you want to bang out code based on specs that were given to you, then you don't need a university CS degree. If you want to be able to analyze the running time of an algorithm, and be able to tell if a particular problem is NP-Complete or not, *that's* what a CS degree is for. - GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -3/+49Maths is vital to CS. You cannot design anything bar the simplest of algorithms without the mathematical background. CS *is* mathematics, the entire field is just a way of making massive calculators interface with network, storage and I/O devices in interesting ways. For all but the most simplest of problems you are going to need a solid grasp of mathematics unless you are just taking a UML model and thumping in code from it.
- prockcore, on 10/11/2007, -1/+44Part of the problem is people equate CS with IT, and IT with support. Today, being in IT is seen as no better than being in customer service.
Programmers, database engineers, software architects, they're usually in their own department in all but the smallest companies. - Philodox, on 10/11/2007, -5/+36Now, when you say IT do you mean sysadmin stuff? Because people get into CS for more reasons than to do sysadmin work. It's unfortunate that many places require university CS degrees to be a systems administrator when it's really not required. A community college/certification is usually enough from my experience.
Good software developers are in short supply in North America (specifically the U.S.) and that can only be addressed by improving the university curriculums. - cr4ft, on 10/11/2007, -9/+37I don't know how the system works in the United States, but it's just as bad in Canada as well.
To just get into our CS program you must have Advanced Calculus as well as Geometry and Discrete (both via High School). Thing is, two high-level maths in a final year of HS causes students to get poor marks and as a result have to go to college (better known as Community Colleges in the US).
Another turnoff (like shifty2 mentioned) are the math courses you have to take. Going back to my example here in Canada, a University CS semester usually includes Programming, Advanced Trigonometry, Calculus, Computer Mathematics, etc. This means that if someone were exceptionally good in computers but had a poor background in math they wouldn't be able to advance to the course.
As opposed to the college level where you have 5 courses per semester and includea basic math + several computer courses like Java, networking, C++, etc.
The only thing people look at with the University is it's prestige, but you mostly learn theory and that's turning a lot of potentially great CS students to go the college route.
I guess that's what happens when you have people who've never heard of Linux or "firewall" deciding on what courses students must take - dbalaski, on 10/11/2007, -1/+24Well, with a # of jobs gong to India and other places, that also contributes to the problems.
I do agree with the article -- A lot of things being taught are niche toolsets etc. And I agree on the complier design comment.
Assembly is a declining skill, which I think people need to learn -- to understand what is going on inside the system better. I meet a lot of programmer who really have no clue on what is happening, and how to read a dump.
IMHO -- CS programs need to integrate more real world problems and interdisciplinary programs into the curriculum - shadus, on 10/11/2007, -1/+23When I refer to CS, I generally mean what the majority of people go into - systems (sysadmin, dba, web, etc), networks (networking, voip, layout and design, etc), and programming (if you don't know, me giving an alphabet soup isn't going to help.) My personal experience is mostly systems and networks except for some early vb6, a healthy amount php, perl, and c/c++. CS is a big field but I would guess 80% or better end up in one of those three specialties inside 5 years of graduation.
@flydpnkrtn, get an MBA with your CS degree and be an IT manager, it pays better and management does place SOME value on that position.
A lot of IT depends on ability to move too, when I started in IT this area wasn't bad, now it's a waste land (ne ohio) unfortunately, I'm stuck here due to other circumstances and can't move where the jobs are presently (Raleigh for example). If you really love the field don't let it get you down, just move where you need to go to get work and don't get set on a particular job. - ubuntuedgy, on 10/11/2007, -0/+21I work at a University and have a CS degree. I have seen many reasons for the low CS enrollment: the math courses weed out many, people quite simply are afraid of the curriculum, and I see tons of students going after the "easy" degrees after CS abuses them and spits them out. Many drop out of CS and go after an IS or IT degree; the course work is not as demanding. Seriously, we have a lot of pre-CS majors, but after a few OO programming classes and some of the Calculus classes, they never become full CS majors.
Really, it is a personal choice. People are interested in computers but I really don't think they understand what a CS degree entails: lots of math and tons of programming. After a couple semesters of that they decide it isn't for them.
We also have a robotics program (LEGO mindstorm related), but that is at the later courses.
Also, the CS faculty demand a hell of a lot more out of students than some of the other programs. There is no such thing as a web development introduction course. A CS student is pretty much expected to know what LAMP is and how to use it when they get here. I think the standards of what they should already know is high enough that it scares people away. Those it doesn't scare away initially move out after they have to make database calls and they didn't know how to do it already.
It is just a demanding degree. The kids who love MySpace just don't realize that there is more to computer technology that linking a picture or a sound on their personal webspace. - reddevil3, on 10/11/2007, -0/+20FTA: "Assembly programming and compiler design skills acquired in college aren't going to be very useful for software developers who enter the workforce and get paid to write web applications with ASP.NET or Ruby on Rails."
Umm yeah, if you don't know how assembly programming and compiler design it's not a CS degree at all. You have to know the nuts and bolts of how things happen. When you write a Java program it's not just some "magic" which converts all that text to binary. If computer scientists are not supposed to know that stuff, who is? Writing web applications is an entirely different thing. - Makurosu, on 10/11/2007, -0/+20@shadus
You are exactly right. It has nothing to do with the universities. The problem is the disrespect and insecurity that IT professionals face when they enter the workplace. It just isn't worth it. After 14 years in IT as a C++ and Java developer, I'm now in insurance. I'm still a tech junkie - I run Ubuntu on my home computer, for example. But I get treated like a professional now, the pay is better, and I don't have to constantly be studying whatever the new resume-making technology is this year like I'm in law school. I get to come home at night and play with my son.
People aren't going into IT anymore, because it's the pits. Plain and simple. I wouldn't recommend IT to my worst enemy. - brucerchapman, on 10/11/2007, -1/+19Your first error was listening to someone else instead of working it out for yourself. Your job isn't going to India - a lot of Indians are moving to your neighbourhood to take your job because the company couldn't find anyone local.
Seriously, if CS interests you, then study it. Studying something you don't like because it might lead to good employment prospects is foolish at best and life destroying at worst. If you don't like it you'll never apply yourself and your career will never go anywhere. Then one day you'll try and blame your choice, when the real problem was not following your intuition and doing what you want to do. - digggggggggg, on 10/11/2007, -0/+17A good CS program will give you a good understanding of theory and the underlying principles of computers. This is why compiler design, assembly, discrete math, and even some topics relating to electrical engineering, all seemingly pointless skills, are incorporated into many well-known CS programs (MIT, Caltech, Stanford, Berkeley)
This is because anyone can gain a working knowledge of a programming language. Anyone can sit down with a "Teach yourself Java in 21 days" book and learn the stuff; it's not hard. What sets you apart as a "software engineer", and not an "implementer" is your deep understanding of computer science and your ability to design robust and maintainable software. - nipuL, on 10/11/2007, -0/+16Oooh, a shortage of CS graduates? Does this mean I can finally get a job!?!
- simpleid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+16To the parent poster:
That's because if you know what you're doing you'd realize Computer Science is a math degree. It's a product of pure mathematics in fact, study algorithms/turing/etc and you'll understand.
Computer Science isn't about learning how to write in a programming language, that's what you learn as a product of learning the entire CS curriculum. The point is to understand all the underlying complexity that helps you understand how all programming languages are the same (how the machine actually works, and to manipulate it), not including the minor deviations which give certain languages specific intent. Yet even those processes can be still applied in any language not designed with those conveniences in place. This understanding enables you to develop well designed algorithms of your own for science applications. A CS degree is not for the IT field, it's for any field of science so you can help scientist visualize and analyze data from testing, etc. You're a functioning component of real scientific investigation with a CS degree.
You have to know your math, and very well, in order to develop the tools necessary for all the various fields of research out there that you could potentially contribute to.
Too many people go in to CS thinking it's about programming only, and maybe about networking. That's not the fundamental point of Computer Science. It's a real science. - imjustabill, on 10/11/2007, -1/+16I think a part of it has to do with everyone being afraid that they're going to lose their jobs to people in India. When I started college a few years ago, I had a good number of people try to talk me out of doing CS because "all the jobs are going to india". 3 years later, here come all the reports that CS majors are in high demand. Guess I made a good choice.
- soccerbud, on 10/11/2007, -0/+15Edsger Dijkstra, the former chair of the C.S. department at my Alma meter said, computer science is as much about programming as astronomy is about telescopes. Therefore, the more respected/reputable c.s. departments is, the more theory and other "mundane" subjects (automata theory anyone?) will be required for its students.
On that note, computer science is much more than "programming" or becoming a competent programmer. It is about understanding the various "sciences" pertaining to computation and computers, may it be artificial intelligence, programming languages, theorem proving, distributed computing, computer graphics, computer architectures etc. No matter how practical (or unpractical) those subjects may be.
Also, way, way back in the days (think 60's and 50's), computer science was usually a part of the Math departments. That is why most c.s. departments have huge math requirements
But I do applaud cs departments are offering a software engineering path as an alternative to the traditional computer science path. - idc5, on 10/11/2007, -2/+15all the fine chicks are in social sciences :D
- CaptMonkey, on 10/11/2007, -2/+15@GMorgan
I would disagree. Math is a part of CS, but the larger, more overlooked, part is logic. Time and time again, I've met people who are wonderful in math but have no firm grasp on logic. The end result is that their code is ***** and they can't understand CS concepts. I have to strain to think of times that I used advanced math in coding, and the only times I can think of were dealing with graphics where I needed some geometry. Meanwhile, nearly every line of code deals with logic (store this value for later use, test this, start a loop here, etc.). - etnu, on 10/11/2007, -0/+13Pay software professionals more and they will go after the degree.
There are two people in my team at work who have Ph.Ds, 1 with 2 masters, and 2 with bachelor's, and myself (no degree). I have the second most years of experience (the guy with the masters has more). The only person in my group who makes more than me is the guy with the masters, and he's barely clearing 6 figures a year.
Meanwhile, an MBA with 2 years of experience (between the bachelor's and masters) usually STARTS in the $100k+ range.
The perception of business is that business skills are much more valuable than computer skills -- period.
Don't like it? Start your own company. A whole bunch of bright young software professionals do. If you know how to write software, you will almost certainly be able to run the startup with lower costs and better products than your mba competitors.
Additionally, the "CS" requirements at most companies are a ***** joke. I've interviewed with pretty much every major software or web company around, and the only ones who are really asking questions that require a CS degree are Google and Amazon. Microsoft, Yahoo, IBM, etc. pretty much ask you implementation questions, a few basic programming concepts, and a bunch of security / maintenance type of things.
Of course, most of the "CS" that I see coming out of schools isn't much evolved from what a decent programmer can pick up reading wikipedia for a few days. They know the basics of arrays, lists, trees, and hash tables, but that's about it. Anyone can memorize the heap sort algorithm. Meanwhile, the majority of them can't figure out how to write a decent socket server or how to design a scalable service manager to save their lives.
Not everyone who works in software needs to be a "computer scientist", anyway. Very few people actually need the higher maths. Virtually nobody needs to learn physics or chemistry.
Quite frankly, business degrees of all varieties are simply a lot easier to get, and have a lot higher rewards, than computer science. - AgentAnderson, on 10/11/2007, -0/+12The problem is an increase in stupid people.
Why can't students get it through their thick skulls that their homework code should compile before they submit it to me for grading? - arnar, on 10/11/2007, -1/+12FTA: "Assembly programming and compiler design skills acquired in college aren't going to be very useful for software developers who enter the workforce and get paid to write web applications with ASP.NET or Ruby on Rails."
and
"also, having to take 4 different calculus classes and "computer math" classes is a HUGE turn off"
I disagree. Seeing stuff like ADA (and many many other languages) - understanding assembly, compilers and *a lot* of math is IMO part of the foundation for being a computer _scientist_. If you want to be a software engineer, then - well - you should study software engineering.
Computer science and it's advancement depends on people starting to consider it a field of science, on par with fields of engineering - and not simply a tutorial on how to be a programmer. - thorb, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11There's always DeVry.
- Y0tsuya, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11I'm a EE, but back in school I also took CS courses. When my school says computer science, they really do mean computer SCIENCE. They're very resistant to fad programming languages, so C/C++ plus assembly have always been the backbone languages used throughout the curriculum. The intro assembly language course I took as a freshman was really meant to be the foundation for a processor architecture course I later took. The C intro course is also the foundation for later courses such as OS, compiler, graphics. The languages are really just a means to an end, namely to teach and apply theory. As the professor says at the beginning of the processor architecture course, "Most of you may not get the chance to design a processor, but this knowledge will still be invaluable to your career." Or something to that effect. His job was to supply the theory, and the term project was an application of the theory. The rest is up to you.
- Totty, on 10/11/2007, -3/+13My university still teaches ADA as the first language. CS students are required to have 2 semesters at Murray State University.
- bearda, on 10/11/2007, -2/+12@kingamoon
Hell, one chick in most of my CS or Engineering classes would have been an improvement... - atbnet, on 10/11/2007, -0/+10That's called Computer/Electrical Engineering.
- inactive, on 10/11/2007, -1/+11CS is just too difficult for the amount of respect you get afterwards. Commerce is easy street.
- ilikeeggs, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13I happen to think that the math classes you take are the most essential skills a computer scientist should be learning at university. The programming skills should always be second to a solid grounding in the foundations of computer science.
The math skills are academic, whilst the programming is vocational. Should university not be about academia? - haid, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8Supply and Demand.
Millions of $100 laptops going to the 3rd world in the OLPC project. Anyone want to guess what the supply of programmers is going to be like in a few years? - dirtyhipster, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9My school still teaches COBOL
- jsowder18, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9@shadus
one the best/depressing rants I've heard on here in a while
it's sad cause I'm starting to see truth in it, I'm an IT major and am currently doing a desktop support internship and it looks like the best I'm looking at when i get out in December is maybe 14 dollars an hour starting off with about 5 years of experience with support under my belt
it's also sad that after going 40,000 dollars in debt, people are telling me i need to go out and spend hundreds, if not thousands more on certifications to prove that i know how to memorize a bunch of crap :-(
i mean people keep telling me "computers aren't going away, you picked a good major..." but I'm really starting to have my doubts :- ... - inactive, on 10/11/2007, -0/+8"...universities are making their computer science curriculum more engaging and immersive."
---
Imbeciles. The reason fewer students major in CS is because CS jobs are getting offshored/inshored by the million. What is inshoring? Offshore (L-1 visa) contractors are brought to the U.S. where they live in squalid condition (6-8 in a 2-bedroom apartment), and work for as little as $10/hr. Employees are forced to train the contractors, then get laid off. The procedure is euphemistically referred to as "knowledge transfer". - aliengoods, on 10/11/2007, -7/+14Why would anyone major in a field that is going to be 90% outsourced to India or China with the next decade? I've been programming professionally for 12 years and things only look worse down the road.
- GMorgan, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Why does the language matter. Java has OGL bindings. You aren't going to be programming any AAA titles when in university, learn to do it in Java then worry about the C++ syntax soup when you need to.
The biggest fallacy is that learning a new language is equivalent to a whole amount of brain damage. Learning a second language takes what, a spare weekend (to a usable degree in any case). Trust me the first barrier is learning to think, once you do languages are just different forms of syntax.
Also games design requires a horrific amount of mathematics. Everything is about vectors and co-ordinate systems etc. Then AI goes heavily into things like graph theory and physics, well that's pretty much self explanatory. - Technopundit, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7Based on the wages and demand, it seems we have all the CS grads we need. Companies are always laying out sob stories about the decline in CS students. Know why? They want smarter people for less money.
- smartmlp, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Really, in todays world its more that you actually have a degree rather then what it is in. The Computer science fields can easily evolve into a management career if you push it that way...
Not only that, but I'm going for a computer science degree not because I want to be rich or something, but its because I enjoy doing it and I love computers. Call me stupid for wanting to better my self using education instead of going to a university for a piece of paper that says I can get a job :-P - brufleth, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Many science degrees are going to require higher math. My engineering degree required almost enough math classes for a math minor although the university wouldn't allow us to apply them towards a math minor. I actually had to take more high level math classes than my sister who did in fact get a math minor. That's just the nature of the beast. Many people (generally in western countries) have trouble with that because most high school level curriculum require only 2 math classes which can be as lame as high school economics and accounting. I never quite understood that low level of math requirements when usually the same curriculum requires at least triple the language classes.
I certainly understand the value of language skills. I just think our culture tends to minimize the need for strong math and science skills. That doesn't really set people up for success at science and engineering degrees when they're competing with middle eastern and far eastern students with much stronger math backgrounds.
That said, it is possible at many high schools to take the higher math classes (through AP Calc and possibly local community colleges) and do just fine. The sky really isn't falling. You just can't be lazy about it. - oriondarkwood, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8Have spend the last 17 years of my life in the IT field working from one man shows all the way up to Fortune 100 companies.. I can tell you excatly what is wrong..
- IT doesn't produce anything.. at the end of the day a factory worker can point to a pile of widgets and say I did that today, a saleman can point to a stack of orders and say I sold that.. what can a IT person point at I designed that button today.. whoopie it took you 8 hours to design something I can drag and drop with Frontpage (and of course all the IT people knows the different between a IT designed button and a button designed in frontpage)
- Too much focus on lanaguages not concepts - I am fluently in several computer lanaguages and know several others, however years ago I learned something they never taught me.. lanagues come and go.. to create a good application in a language in one thing.. to know how to create a good application based on good specficiation collection skills and good raport with the end users is another thing. Not to mention more classes on social interaction and business...
- Still a stereotype exists in IT that you have to be a geek or a loner to work in IT.. yes I admit having a flexiable mind helps lot as well as a stocked liquor cabient but the only real thing one needs for programing is the ability to stop thinking human for hours on end
- Respect, few companies respect IT.. come on when is the last time you got a call from someone outside of IT thanking you.. most of the time its your fault why they can't surf Pr0n at work (even if you not the system/network admin) or their uncover a obsurce bug because they did things that are not even in your wildest nightmares about what a end user can do.. you catch the blame (even if its not even your application)
- Non-IT people creating training courses and classes for IT people (I been to a few of these).. The college I went to thier was 4 ACCOUNTING classes in the course list for IT (and not even using a computer or accounting program)
- Unrealistic expectations - some people go into IT because they see the Steve Jobs, the Bill Gates, the Sid Miers of the world and think all these people do is still and type on a computer all day and make millions of bucks.. well the truth is IT is like Hollywood for every Bill Gates, their is thousands that are just as important but not get the "rock star" status and bucks to go with it.. - bearda, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7If you want building computers from a module level (this is my video card, this is my motherboard, etc) that's really a technical/vocational school thing. You don't need a college degree to put together a system.
If you're talking about building computers from an architecture level (this is my data bus, this is how I interface to main memory) that's Computer Engineering. - hadphild, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7All I need to say is DONT get into IT Support. Unless you want to feel like to world is against you. It is truly firefighting at its worst.
- reddevil3, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8CS is not just "how to program". Lots of people in other fields learn programming too. Hell I learned how to "program" in Java at an early age, something which anyone can do.
Btw, how do you think all the algorithms (which are used in further programs) which have been developed come from? It can usually be traced back to some sort of CS professor doing research. - darkstar949, on 10/11/2007, -0/+7@ubuntuedgy - Not if your parents make over a given threshold of money - most of the grants take into account how much money your parents make and if they make too much money then you find yourself on an upward climb if you are paying your own way.
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