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68 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+59Post your thoughts and ideas here on Digg, don't link us to your ***** blog.
- livejamie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+33not all torrent traffic is illegal
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31"Marketing something you can't actually deliver on."
It's called "Overselling", and it's how many businesses models work -- and work spectacularly well, mind you. It's how Amazon Prime works. It's how dreamhost works. It's how netflix works. It's how the "All you can eat buffet" works.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overselling
Overselling works because most people don't use most of many services -- you offer them unlimited free shipping for a flat $80/year, but they only use it 5 times a year, for example.
The thing at issue here is not overselling, it's that ISPs tried the overselling model, it's not really working the way they'd like, and they're doing a terrible job of coping with that fact. - molecool, on 10/12/2007, -4/+30Meanwhile in Japan they're getting 100Mbit/sec connections for around $25.-/month. No traffic shaping or any of that jazz. What leads the American enterprise to constantly wanting to do that old 'bait and switch' on us? Or trying to deliver as little as possible for as much returns as possible? (see comments above regarding 'overselling' - spot on!)
I'm actually surprised people are not getting sick of the Internet and are getting rid of their connections. Let's see - 95% of my email is spam, I have to constantly be afraid of getting some virus or spyware on my Windoooz system (okay, that's solved by buying a Mac, fine), upload speeds are horrible and prevent me from running a webserver at home unless I pay a fortune (and in most cases my contract with the ISP forbids it), downloads are being 'traffic shaped', my identity is constantly in danger of being ripped off, advertising banners and popups in my face at every commercial site, etc. Not exactly a great pitch for selling broadband IMHO - some of which I know the ISPs admittedly have no control over. However, if I was one of their execs I would sit down and think about how to expand my own business by making my customer's life easier, not how to squeeze the last penny out of them. The only reason this flies is because most of them are monopolies protected by our corrupt administration. As soon as there is an alternative, like say WiMAX (I know vaporware,,, sigh...) you'll see a 'rapid rethinking'. We're getting taken advantage of because we're letting them.... - 16x9, on 10/12/2007, -1/+26I couldn't agree more. I use BitTorrent all the time and I have never (NEVER) used it to download anything illegally. And no, I don't mean "wink, wink" I've never download anything illegally. I mean exactly what I wrote.
How do I use BitTorrent then? Mostly I've used it to download large open source projects, assorted Linux distros, game updates and some Podcasts that are available via BitTorrent (including some Video Podcasts where the files are large enough that otherwise the bandwidth bill would kill the publisher). - merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24By that definition of "server", playing warcraft 3 or Quake or Counterstrike on the internet with friends would constitute running a server as well.
You're right, by some definitions, any peer to peer application involves running a server. But the scope of peer to peer applications is broad. Certainly you wouldn't claim that every Skype user should pay for a commercial line? It's peer to peer, so your computer 'serves' data. Same thing with sending a friend a file over AIM... - Raian, on 10/12/2007, -1/+17Simple fact 2: If you try to use it in new ways-- they will shape the traffic in new ways... and everyone knows, only criminals need encryption! (sarcasm)
- sbovisjb1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15Encrypt the traffic
- Raian, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12Even if it was "illegal" what ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12#4, Stop leeching money from government ***** and stop lobbying. Tax payers already payed for networks that didn't get built. Instead *gasp* invest a portion of the profit to provide better infrastructure.
Bandwidth is a utility and like all essential services should be protected from monopoly abuse and/or provided at profit-free rates from governments. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11"Failure to fulfil a contract by the ISP is theft, plain and simple."
And that's wrong. It is actually breach of contract. - mulling, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11They promised the government (aka you and I) they'd roll out dirt-cheap and fast broadband back in the 90s. The government cut them a $200 Billion check. They cashed the check and are instead giving us expensive and slow broadband.
I want my $200 Billion back. - drizek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Reality means I have to chose between either a douche DSL provider or a douche cable provider.
- kontact, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Rogers (Big Canadian ISP) already shapes encrypted bittorrent traffic with ease.
- mulling, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9I'm OK with the ISPs and the *AA driving natural selection in distribution technology. If nothing had happened to Napster, we'd all still be using that turd of a distro scheme. Instead we've gone through a couple generations of better and better distribution technologies, and if things keep going in this direction we'll eventually have better, more secure, and stronger methods of disseminating information. I can imagine a future where WiMax and WiFi create organic mesh networks that are truly disruptive, but it won't happen if we grow complacent and fat on our existing technologies.
- LogicallyGenius, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6my ISP did seemed to had blocked torrents,
I simply changed my ISP
Only those ISPs who support Net neutrality will survive. - thunderer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7You know what's worse than having Comcast as an ISP? Having your cable company exec's pulling an Enron stunt, going bankrupt, and then selling out to Comcast.
They damn well better not start capping my current 750KB/s peak.
[end of rant]
Google needs to step in with some of their dark fiber and open the pipes a bit. - nhaas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I agree - google ISP.
- bigbchew, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Google would most likely give you good cheap speed..while at the same time running adsense on every single packet I bet.
- Xeller, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It should be as simple as "You get what you paid for." Unfortunately, in today's profit-driven world, that's no longer the case apparently.
Bittorrent was originally created behind an economic philosophy of not creating too much burden on a central server when numerous users wish to access the same file(s). Bram Cohen, the creator, certainly has never shown support for illegal downloads. The program is being utilized by companies and other individuals who simply wish to distribute something that they cannot afford to by themselves. Singling out and attempting to limit Bittorrent is only going to force these same groups to attempt to find other speedy, efficient ways to distribute their product/work/whatever. - ronjohnson, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Vote Al Gore next election, he will make we have cheap & unlimited bandwidth.
- Madh2orat, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@Molecool
All that may be true, but I still need my porn. - alephsmith, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@merreborn
Well it is clear that the business model is horribly broken when it comes to bandwidth and bittorrent. - Geekbeard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I just started encrypting with that RC4. Went from 0.8 kB/s to 50. (Wait, it's at 80 now and climbing).
- Matteos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Ha! The state protecting the property rights of the customers against corporate theft. Now I've heard everything... ROFL
- Mihai12345, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4And don't forget that many dj's use it to distribute their mixes if they can't afford the bandwith.
- williamdyer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5In civilized countries you get 100Mbps for the price of our DSL. The telcos are worthless thieves. Take away their tax subsidized networks.
- rubberpants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Define "server software".
- mackdaddy187, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Rogers can lick my balls. Moving over to Bell soon.
- molecool, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Exactly - Relakks.com is your friend....
- MikeCerm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My Comcast cable internet runs at roughly half the speed up/down that they quote, but, even at half the speed, it's still 3 times faster than the DSL that Verizon offers in my area. Verizon also costs about 25% more (when you factor in the unnecessary but required phone service). Switching is not an option.
Here's the deal: In my area, if you have Comcast, you're getting screwed. If you don't have Comcast, you're screwing yourself even worse. - Petronski, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@mackdaddy187
"Rogers can lick my balls."
What a generous offer! - MacSuxWindozSux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Im on Bell.
Rogers is faster. But they have a monthly limit of 100GB or so. Bell doesn't.
I don't think Rogers shapes encrypted bittorrent. I was using uTorrent + Encrypted Conections only + custom port.
Though i can see Rogers being gay and shaping any port that downloads too much data, without checking if it's bittorrent or whatever.
Rogers is a company that when they first came out with Cable Internet everyone was asking if the connection is shared and they would say no, even though it was a blatant lie. - jfoust2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Precisely. Oversubscription, as a model, will disappear as people come to expect to be able to download X Mbps and upload Y Mbps on a regular basis for TV, VoIP, radio listening, file sharing, etc. If your ISP used 10:1 or 15:1 or 20:1 assumptions when calculating their profit margin, and if a significant fraction of users start using more than they expected, they will change their pricing model and throttle and limit bandwidth to enforce it.
Business-class bandwidth can be damn expensive if you're not in an urban area. I'm paying more than $500 a month to have a T-1 from a well-known provider. If it goes down, THEY CALL ME within five minutes. I have 95% utilization guaranteed, up and down. Very nice. But expensive.
I could get cable Internet or DSL for $35-50 a month, but if it goes down, they really don't care. You can't resell it. - rubberpants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4You forgot some other possible choices:
5) Accept the fact that you can't deliver what your customers want and get into a different business.
6) Revise your business plan to accept lower profits so that you can continue to provide an expected level of service.
7) Decrease your CEO's level of compensation in exchange for increased capacity.
Something to think about. - rubberpants, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@molecool
"Or trying to deliver as little as possible for as much returns as possible?"
You misspelled "Corporation".
Seriously, that's what all businesses do, by their very nature. I don't know what the solution to that is. - mulling, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The contracts don't cover QoS. If you want that, you need to spring for along the lines of a T1.
- punkrockscks, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2My ISP throttles pretty much everything except http. A lot of the ISP's get away with throttling or not letting you use all your bandwidth because they call it " Excess Utilization of Network Resources", as mine does. They consider anything that uses almost all your bandwidth for more than an hour or so excessive...pretty much what someone else said, they over sell the market so they can get more customers without having to upgrade on their end... I can't wait for my contract to be up with them...
- dagamer34, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2True, only on T1 or T3 are you actually guaranteed a certain speed for your money. That's why it costs so much. But you're able to sue if you don't get the speed the advertise. Can't do so with residential broadband.
- wired4u, on 10/12/2007, -4/+6My torrent downloads on Comcast really started dropping months ago, to a crawl around15-20k. I ditched bit torrent and went to news groups. Using news groups I download around 900k-1000k I never say speeds like that on bittorrent. In my option news groups are wort the 20$ a month.
- MikeCerm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2They'll have a hard time adsensing encrypted traffic.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Profit driven means that if the company pisses off the customers, the customers go elsewhere, taking their money with them. Profit driven means vote with your dollars, and cancel your service plan.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2I'm going to get my monies worth out of my broadband, the min it goes out im on the phone reporting it, i'm going to get my 50 bux a month worth.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Except the ISP usually says "We can alter the contract at any time." and unless you use your legal ability to alter the contract and submit it to the ISP for approval of your changes before you sign, you're ***** in the ass.
- lcmatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Its the easiest way at the moment, my ISP limits me to 20kbps so I have no option but to encrypt the traffic so I can use the connection for what I want again.
- Modulo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1why?
- rowanjl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1And Linux distributions, and some other software providers.
- Fatalis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"I don't know what the solution to that is."
It is called competition. - Vouksh, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Hey everybody, lets "man up" and each of us buy a $10,000/month line just so we can play WoW! It makes so much sense even though there's no way to get a line out to residential houses (i live in a rural area...)
- rowanjl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Now thats not true, corporations fall into either of two areas:
A: Rip customers off, because they can ignore them (ISPs, software houses).
B: Do what customers want, because they can't (Cars, mobiles, hi-fi).
Unfortunately, while every ISP is getting gobbled up, and there is no competition, they can ignore their customers. -
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