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- snarkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Here's a little first-hand compensation insight for you. I am a lead developer at a Fortune 50 company. My duties include interviewing candidates, negotiating rates with recruiters and presenting hiring recomendations, which my boss generally accepts.
1.) On the west coast, Java/J2EE developers with 3-5 yrs experience currently command $60-$70 W2, $70-$80 1099. Developers with relevant specialties go even higher.
2.) The recruiter typically adds 40%-50% mark-up, meaning that if they are paying you $60/hr., they are billing you out at around $90/hr. or more.
2a.) I'm not talking about anyone special here. This is just for typical, hardworking, heads-down programmers who can follow directions and get the job done.
3.) As a rule of thumb, salaries run about 1000x bill-rate. That's right: half of your annual contract cost. So if your recruiter bills you out at 90/hr., you can probably command around $90K salary. Don't let anyone tell your that benefits make up the difference: They don't come close.
4.) Many, many developers do nothing but contract. Here's why: Let's say you can command a $90/hr bill-rate and negotiate a $60/hr W2 with your recruiter. Chances are you will work well in excess of 2000 hours a year. I would call 50-hr weeks pretty normal, and nobody ever tells a developer to slow down. You can generally work as much as you want. So let's call it 2500 hrs. That puts you at $150K per year. Not bad, eh? I tell you what: few salaried employees below director (as in a manager's boss's boss) make that kind of base.
5.) A bit of advice: Try to stick around a place for one or two years. Less than one looks a little iffy, and more than two doesn't count for much, and maybe makes you look a bit stale. Hiring managers want to think they are getting the latest skills. And always finish out the project. It's the perfect reason to give for departing your last gig.
6.) A bit more advice: As you get a little further into your career, narrow down your focus enough to land the higher-paying specialist jobs, but not so much that you look like a one-trick pony. And also, please don't list skills that you don't really, really posess.
7.) The market is hotter right now than anytime I have seen it in the last five years. It has taken us two months to fill two mid-level J2EE spots. Make hay while the sunshines, boys and girls. - kidhero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2maybe 1% of digg's audience even qualify.
everyone works retail and thinks their tech support job is worth more than $8.50 an hour. - sickaltima, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1
a salary is negotiable
http://www.jobsnake.com/articles/index.cgi?openarticle&8535&How_To_Negotiate_A_Better_Salary_-_The_Inside_Story - mshikaji, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A few years ago many pundits predicted that high-paid US programming jobs would migrate from the US to India. Given the current state of the software job market, I think it's safe to say they were wrong in the near term.
The selling points of low cost, size of talent pool and ubiquity of English fluency make off-shoring seem extremely attractive. It would be interesting to know why US software professionals' salaries are at such a high level in spite of this expected industry shift. - BoxingNut83, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I can tell you why.. because a lot of the times, if you're engineers are over in India, so are your support people and nothing pisses customers off more than speaking with a local in India. Sure, he may know English, but either his accent is so thick or he can't understand simple phrases or euphemisms.
If I wanted to hear someone talk in a robotic fashion that obviously studied English language and everything else for that matter from a book, I'd turn on Star Trek and listen to Data. - Demagogue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'm at the time in my life where taking classes and getting certain jobs could help me be successful, so I guess interneships are HIGHLY important?
- pondster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0OK, looks like some good talk happening - fellow diggers I need some advice. First let me say, I have no degree but alot of EXP. I think my luck just sucks with finding employers. Right now I am a Sys Admin for a data center - learning as I go - so far I learned and am now in charge of - Setting up sites (In apache and IIS) setting up FTP accounts - Writing DNS in BIND, Setting up email (Accounts in IMAIL, with freebsd setup for the mailertable) and now I'm learning on the cisco routers + since I was with the company that got bought out I have my old job still as web developer. I manage over 30 sites and build e-commerce sites (Eshox and now OSC) - now get this, All this for the whopping salary of $12.50 an hour (Thats $26,000 a year!) No benies yet either. I'm on the east coast - and I REALLY need to find a better paying job! The company that bought the one I was with is a small company - Just me, The owner and the bookeeper and another guy I never see that helps the boss after hours one day a week. I'm on call 24/7 (via cell and answering service that has a map of all our machines which light up as the have issues) I am doing WAY too much for this pay but its all I can find right now. anyone with some good advice please contact me at signguy1974@gmail.com
- BoxingNut83, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yah stick with programming so you can get outsourced by a Hindu with an IQ 3x what yours is.
- gtiness, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0to quote: "I am WAAAAY underpaid!"
- BoxingNut83, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0SORRY That last message was to Pondster, not kickarse.
BTW kickarse, where are you from?? Illegal for working 20hrs / week without benefits? - BoxingNut83, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0kickarse: You are getting majorly screwed.
Degrees help, so do certs. I've seen countless nerds who said the hell with college NOT make it in the real world.. whether it be because of an obscure skillset, bad luck or poor communication skills. However, I have seen quite a few people WITHOUT college education do very well.
Just to be sure... always look for something to learn, get a degree, get a major CERT, keep your resume up to date.
Oh yeah.. and save as much money as possible. - Kruncher, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I work for a small computer repair business. We have two stores and are currently understaffed as I am the _only_ tech at one of the stores doing repair. I'm an above part time worker, 30 hours average (26 is part time). The pay I get seems _really_ low compared to what you could get working at bestbuy or any of the positions in the linked report: $5.30.
What are other people in my positon getting paid? - kickarse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0^^ east cost btw... western mass
- kickarse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I can't believe that people still pay $250 an hour for design, what chumps...
For freelance I can charge around $350 for the initial design and then about $45 an hour for page creation and $55 for programming... Depends on what it is though.
Out of highschool I was getting $13.50 hr for Tech Support/Sys Admin/Web Developer (Active Directory, Ghosting, ftp setup, security, PHP scripting, ASP, SQL, MySQL, IIS, Apache, SSL, Perl, travelling off site, rebuilds, and much more) non benefited mind you... It was a university that kept me unbenefited for 3 years (illegally as I was working over 20hrs a week).
Now I work for a hospital at $20.74 benefited, 3 weeks paid vacay, 10 days sick, 10 days personal, etc... Very similar work too... Rolling out AD here soon, setup new server for IIS, ePO, WSUS, New BDC, print servers, file servers, log in scripting (mapping of documents and profiles, etc...), ghosting, laptop and workstation support, web development, etc...
Btw, never went to college or uni. And check around at hospitals for jobs... - WRoach, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@1337diggster: Internships are important. Experience you got on your own is also worth something (OS project contribution, community management experience, etc.). But more important is not being afraid of taking any position in a company where you think there might be opportunities offered to you. I have a MIS degree and I'm very tech savvy. Believe it or not but I started as an account payable clerk right out of University working with people who barely finished high school. I did that 4 weeks (wanted to hang myself, data entry sucks) before someone came pick me up. As of today I've been working as a BSA for 7 months and I love it.
- Minishark, on 10/12/2007, -0/+01337diggster, you might be able to get a job with just a BS, but you really need both experience and a degree. In fact, experience is much more important that the degree. My recommendation would be to look for internships while you're getting your degree.
- crazaalex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0^ true that.
- Sagura, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Stay in school kids.
- fanboydcs, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1well most people reading digg are either working tech support, or the work at compusa/circuit city/bestbuy/frys... Noone here I bet even qualifies for those jobs..
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ok, ill research it! thank you very much =)
- Snarfy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I need to ask for more money :(
- pondster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Thanks BoxingNut, What cert's do you recc? I'm updating my resume tonight.
- xeeton, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yeah, 60k a year is a lot. Thumbs up.
- tacom8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0and double up on what shark said.. interships are the golden ticket man
- tacom8, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0diggster:
I am guessing you are looking at some sorta tech support jobs now? I don't think it will matter if these are on your resume after you grad. Lets put it this way if they are going to give that job to someone off the street with a high school diploma, i don't think the experience will be worth that much in the end. And if you are planning to continue on in that field after grad why even go to uni? Don't worry man you will have plenty of time to earn meaningful experience while you are at school. Just work hard at school and that will be your ticket. CS is competitive, so you are goona have to stand out in some way. But i would bank on the fact that high school employment history is NOT a big factor in your fresh outta uni job applications. - number8888, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I work with SAP and I do not get $75 per hour!!! Not even close!!!
- nfollmer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0thanks for the advice......... Maybe i will just get a BS in programming and that will solve my problem altogether lol
- BinaryJay, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Salary = Steady pay as long as you want it. Contract = Bragging rights for hourly rates and phenomenal years - 6 months of sitting on your ass looking for the next contract worth taking on your bad years.
- dtmfdan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0W00T
damn it feels good to be a computer engineering major! - gambl0r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Web Developer = crap/hour
I need to learn 'Data Warehouse Architecture' ;) - RAT-Man, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0A form of project managment made the list. Nice.
- jnorris441, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I make $40K as a web developer in Daytona...this area sucks. I think I'll go blow my brains out now.
- thund3rstruck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Stick with programming dude. I did the networking thing in college and it got me $40K a year for 5 years.... ditched that and re-invented myself as a .NET programmer and I make more than double my old salary, not to mention the bonuses and the respect you get when you create a real jem for a company.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sweet that MBA is going to finally pay off!
- KoZo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0so thats why they're outsourcing computer jobs... i only make $2/hour here.. crap...
- nfollmer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ok i have been thinking about this for months now and i wonder if anyone here can help me.....
im currently going to school for networking working on my assoc. degree. I have a very strong programming background (C++,VB,html,C#) and i am learning .net right now. Now heres the question, Should i stay in school and get a BS in networking OR should i get an assoc. in networking and an assoc. in programming. If i finish networking, the programming degree is only 9 extra months then (since you get the general ed. classes out of the way with networking). Thanks in advance - edto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Looking at the Salary of certain programming/it/etc. positions, does anyone else think its a tad inflated?
- ElectricGrandpa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I'd rather have a lower paying job that I enjoyed than a high paying one that was boring. I figure I'm probably going to spend almost as much time at work as I am enjoying my money anyway... I'm a Flash Developer, which is fun.
- snarkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0
Just as an FYI, salary.com reports the median Sr. Java devloper salary at $100K in San Diego. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0If you blow your brains out, at least have the decency to come back as a ghost and haunt your competition for eternity.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I've been working pretty solidly for nearly 9 months. Prior to this gig, my small business worked on packaging and products that were placed in-line at Office Depot and Office Max.
- Firebgre, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0IT Tech jobs aren't going to pay you much unless you yourself do the field work. You can charge less than the geek squads $229 to UPGRADE AN OS which is not much work, and make a load of money on ONE job! Engineering, and Programming is what is needed by the big boys now-a-days. IT jobs would be a fine side thing, but not a career. I am going into engineering because I want to build a faster CPU. However, I am a lot luckier than some of those above me as I can say i've had 4 years of computer experience including one with a Vocational organization called SkillsUSA, one in Computer Science and Java programming, Engineering Graphics and Drafting, and two in Computer IT Maintenance, and Electronics. ALL of which are provided by my high school.
- MrKite, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"I love all things related to tech/programming/nerdery...
But... thankfully I'm going into medicine.
(and no, it's not just about the money)"
No, it's about wanting to work 80 hour weeks for 10 years straight after med school and not really getting paid as much as you thought. :) Good luck with that. - Necromancyr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Big thing on some of these is even if you have the degree, they want 4-6 years experience to make those wages with decent benefits...particularly the science/CRA ones. (I'm in the bioscience field trying to find a job fresh out of a PhD...)...
You basically end up taking something that pays crap, or lower then your highest degree level to get experience to get a job AT your degree level. It's pretty weird... - char|ie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Digg babies, quit working for the man!
- UID0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Kruncher -
Depends a lot on where you are in life. At $5.30/hour I'm guessing you probably don't have a whole lot of expenses. To give you a break down here's how it panned out for me working tech support type jobs:
High school - $5 - 7.50 (2.5 years)
College - $10-$20 (3 years)
Post grad - Good salary.
If you don't have expenses to worry about and you're in a career related job then then the experience is the real payout. If you're trying to pay the rent on $5.30/hour you're a bit underpaid :) - snarkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0
nfollmer. Get the BS. Doesn't matter what it is in. Honestly, I have hired people with BAs in music, economics, liberal arts, etc. Here's the equation: bachelors + skills = interview.
Here's another equation: assoc. - skills = next resume. Get the bachelors. Assuming you are young, you can probably survive a couple more years of school, so why not stick around? - quaffapint, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I have to second that $45/hr sucks, especially as a base w/o benefits - Theres no way I could raise my family on that. I think I'll stick in my current fulltime job for now...
- dev1t, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I skipped through the 10- 15 last comments, but these are contract job wages. I'm a .net developer and IT director for a great company that takes great care of it's people. My salary just breaks 60k/yr in one of the best, east coast, cities in the US for tech Jobs. Where I live, 1000 miles away from our office, it's a different story. It is almost impossible to find work for 60k/yr doing what I do. Don't be fooled by the numbers. These are great for kids starting out, but not for supporting a family, as the contract can disappear in a heartbeat.
The sad truth is, these numbers are terrible. When I first started out in the early/mid 90's I was getting $75/hr contracting for ASP work. When you look at it that way $45/hr for .net work scares me because you can assume a salaried position will only command 1/2 to 2/3 of that number. -
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