What is Digg?70 Comments
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+56Yes, most coffee shops do not want people staying all day using free WiFi for the price of a coffee and a maybe a bagel. Turn over in the dinning room is very important to make room for customers buying items. Nothing pisses me off more than someone with a laptop taking up a 4 topper (a 4 seat table) in the middle of the cafes rush and no other seats are available.
I run a popular bakery/cafe which offers free wifi but when I go out to the dinning room to ask a customer, nicely, to move to a single table or consolidate their stuff to make room for more customers I get the evil eye. They think the cost of a coffee, with free refills, justifies taking over the dinning room with their *****. They are also that guy/girl that TALKS VERY LOUD OVER THEIR BLUE TOOTH HEADSET.
I am in the business to make money and offer great service for every customer.
That's for letting me rant. - jer2eydevil88, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21People complain when the news isn't dead on about Technology in general and then people complain when it is... just goes to show that even when something is free they like to bitch!
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+28Please, that's your fault.
Even the local McDonalds here I heard figured out that they can keep WiFi free WITH PURCHASE if they just give customers timed accouts that expire within a reasonable amount of time.
People will always abuse a resource when they aren't paying its full price, thats why socialism doesn't work. - MrUnderbridge, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21It encourages people to return who had quit going to their coffee shop because it turned into a crappy computer lab. A bunch of people with their noses stuck in laptops all day long doesn't do much for customer interaction and ambience. Not to mention the ***** who buy one coffee (if that) and stay for four hours, taking up space that could be occupied by actual, paying customers.
- brufleth, on 10/12/2007, -2/+20"Where do you live that doesn't have internet cafes with LAN rooms?
NYC had to..."
Maybe they live (GASP) outside NYC. - phobos182, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15Similarly, don't block ports. As a provider of Internet connectivity, you're not liable
Next, put some basic security measures in place ... enabling (at least) the basic firewall.
What a poorly written article. First dont block any ports, but enable the firewall. Riight. Another uninformed pointless article. - HMTKSteve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8'Course you still need to have good coffee to bring the customers inside in the first place!
Me, I'd like a combination Gaming/Wi-Fi cafe of sorts.
Have a large collection of popular board games for use by the clients and offer free Wi-Fi. On the side you could have a number of browser kiosk PCs and just charge $1 for 15 minutes or a free 15 minute usage if you buy a coffee.
The key would be to sell coffee, soda and quick snacks. You would want to stay away from greasy finger foods though... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Point is not the time they spend but how much room they take up. I can see our customers coming in and buying a coffee and getting 30 min. free WiFi and then renewing their WiFi with a bagel for a another 30 min. In an hour we can pull in $1000+ (lunch) but we have problems with seating when 5 people with laptops take up 20 seats.
We have a very comfortable environment which we like to offer McDonald isn't very comfortable so people will leave just for the fact that their butts hurt. (from the seat and not necessarily the food) - robwistar, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14that's quite a jump from coffee to socialism
- pucosk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Dude, not true. Just because the passphrase is the same it doesn't mean that the session enryption key is the same. WPA protects you against sniffing. All in all I agree with the author. And about some comments that Linux has problem with WPA: I wouldn't compromise the security of majority to allow a minority to use the net. Plus the most common WLAN adapters are supported AFAIK. Even if the configuration is a wii bit more complex then with WEP.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6If we didn't block ports we would run out of bandwidth. We get complaints now that our FREE WiFi isn't fast enough. I am not in the business of offering bit torrent, music, and movie downloads. We also have to run filtering software so pervs don't pull up something inappropriate in the middle of my dinning room. FREE WiFi is costing me a *****-ton every month.
- shoover, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I suggest you don't digg the article then, you'll find it takes less time than posting a pointless rant.
- therernospoons, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I like this one:
"What are we, cave men?!?" - pucosk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Bury me with this guy. Since when has WPA-PSK passphrase 63 characters? Me personally, I would make the password the same as ESSID, the password in this case is not for authorization of users but to ensure their privacy.
- amphora, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Under Do Security Right:
Do not utilize an IP Enabled Point of Sale system to process you Visa/MasterCard transactions on the same Internet connection as your open to the public access point. There is no way to do this and remain compliant with the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard.
You may say, "but I'm a little guy (level 4) I don't need to worry about this and besides I met this 1337 h4x0r on Digg who did the security for me I know it is unbreakable." Yeah tell me that when the thing you did not think of happens (insider threat, something random) and Visa, MasterCard and your acquiring institution are demanding a computer forensics examination that will cost in excess of $10,000 and are threatening you with fines in excess of $20,000 per association. Depending on your attitude and their mood they could even blacklist you from the Visa/MasterCard payment system.
It is not worth it.
http://www.visa.com/cisp/
https://sdp.mastercardintl.com/ - elliann, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5More cheaply's the key. Everyone knows that coffee's margins are huge. The raw cost of a cup of coffee is mostly the labor to pour and froth it, but it's still, what, 25 cents?
So why is it that wireless access, which involves an amortized fixed cost and no labor, costs more than a cup of coffee? - Xibby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5We run into the problem of not enough seating at our local Chipotle all the time durring lunch rush. Instead of standing around with the other customers wating for a table to clear, we look for the loaner at a for seat table. We go up, ask if we can sit. We've yet to be turned down and we've had some decent conversations with strangers to boot.
- cpilot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"I'm looking at you, T-Mobile and Starbucks -- if I'm interested in paying for a wireless connection, I can do that pretty much anywhere (not to mention more cheaply) without you."
Ha! Priceless. - jer2eydevil88, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Use an Ipcop or Smoothwall firewall router if you want to avoid having to reboot your cheapo router everytime your customers try and bruteforce themselves in.
http://www.ipcop.org
http://www.smoothwall.org - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4We love the 'freeloaders' during none peak times morning and evenings they do bring in sales. What we have are business men/women and college student coming in for a working lunch. Most of our tables sit two but they tend to gravitate to the 4 seaters for the table top room. The power outlets are located on the perimeter on the dinning room where the two topper are but that doesn't stop them. We had an incident were a customer tripped over a power cord from a laptop. It was stretched across our floor to one of the bigger tables. Funny thing is our bus person warned him the day before and he moved but the next day the A-HOLE did the same thing. Luckily for us the lady that tripped did not hurt her self and took out her anger on him. He hasn't been back.
- PCDirect, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6@marvin69
Well, I think the issue you have in your place is your seating arrangements. If most of your clients are alone, then why have a bunch of 4 tops? If you do not want them to take a 4 top, give them a better option. Maybe you could place single top tables with power outlets in a section of the store where there is less ambient lighting (easier to see the screen) and name it the WiFi Zone. Subconsciously, people with notebooks would congregate there and feel less tempted to take a 4 top to themselves.
As far as day long free loaders... you could use a Radius based router or server that would give you much more detailed permissions per user. You could give them their code on their receipt that is valid for that day with a timeout period. They could purchase something else and get another code, but that would be a hassle for them to do all day long. It would be cheaper for them to freeload somewhere else.
Bottom line here, some restaurants might want the extra seats taken up to look more busy and draw more people due to curiosity. Sounds like your place is already very busy and this is not your desire. Imagine the day when all of those freeloaders stop coming to you. Would that negatively affect your bottom line? If no, then make a change to twart them. If yes, then live with them and accept your customer's needs. - mlts22, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here is my two cents on running a wireless system:
1: I WOULD block ports. No outgoing port 25. Ever. If you don't like it, tough. Buy an anonymous account somewhere, or relay through your existing ISP's SMTP server. Its not unhead of for people to find open wireless networks just to send spam on for hours and hours, and it opens the coffee shop to possible lawsuits (as well as being blackholed forever by numerous RBL listings.) Yes, this is easily gotten around, but its a defense against hit-and-run spam.
2: I would have a router clued enough to do packet throttling, so overt P2P stuff gets choked. This will keep the mallrat who is trying to download the latest Britney Spears DVD rip from saturating the network. Clued P2P people can easily get around this, but clued P2P-ers won't be trying to run major stuff on a crowded wireless link anyway.
3: Logging, I'm not sure of yet... I would have a list of MAC addresses stored at least for 30-90 days, mainly to keep the usual people/groups from suing my shop into the ground for copyright violations.
4: I wouldn't use a WISP if I could help it, because I like packing my own parachute.
5: I'd CONSIDER a system that uses 802.11x or VPN type abilities so I can have users have their own logins. Yes, my wi-fi would be free with no browser pages or transparent proxies stuffing ads on every web page, but there will be some user accountability. This also keeps the wireless sniffers away. This also lets me, if leeching becomes a problem at peak hours, to perhaps be customer unfriendly and require a purchase or two for x amount of time given. No sitting for 5-8 hours with one cup of coffee at peak hours. Off-peak, fine. Peak, wireless users will need to buy things, or vacate for paying customers.
6: I agree 100% about power outlets. There should be 2-4 outlets per table, GFCI protected, so a spill doesn't short out the whole circuit, and maybe have some surge suppression system in place on the circuit, so a storm doesn't fry all your customer machines at once.
7: Credit card processing would be on a separate network, no ifs, ands, or buts.
8: I would have an acceptable use policy. I don't care to play control freak, but if people want to use my wireless network, they play by my rules, so my shop does not get visits by constables serving summons, or people with badges, Plasticuffs, and guns who are not there for the purpose of buying coffee. - tslag, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I have to question this:
"As a provider of Internet connectivity, you're not liable if someone wanders into your establishment and uses your connection to post seditious rants about invading Canada or to upload soap operas to peer-to-peer file-sharing networks."
I'm pretty sure that's not true. Is it? - recursive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I think it meant outgoing ports. Or something. Sometimes I don't understand the internets.
- EricZBA, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Wasn't there a story a while back about a coffee shop who turned off their free Wi-Fi for a weekend and their business doubled?
- sygyzy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Flat out terrible article. Who is this guy? What is his audience? It surely can't be business owners who want to run an internet cafe. Who doesn't already know this stuff. He is essentially asking cafe owners to provide free unadulterated service, which is the very thing everyone advises them NOT to do. He also points out he only wants to have FREE service because he can get paid internet anywhere, for less. You live in a small town, IN TEXAS. Where is there wireless internet, "everywhere"?
- neondiet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@marvin69
So why not reserve the larger tables as non-WiFi tables. Put little signs on each table indicating that it is, or is not a WiFi table. If they question it, tell them the larger tables are for couples or families that don't use WiFi and that its done by customer request.
Try it out. If it doesn't work then go back to what you have now, or think of something else. At least then you'll know.
- whoutz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3free loaders are okay when there's no one in the coffee shop. If there is no one in the place people keep walking, but if there are people, it migth entice others to come in. its just frustrating when you stand around for an hour without getting a seat. coffee means impulse which means now!
- Tuckie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I personally think that the best (but probably a bit difficult) would be to tie the wifi access to a randomly generated number that is printed out on the receipt. The user could then have about a half hour of usage with the number, requiring the customer to purchase another product upon expiration.
- HMTKSteve, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4It's not surprising at all.
Why spend money to preach to the faithful? You want your advs to be seen by people who DO NOT use your products! - rideaurocks, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Of course it's not true.
Look at it this way. Some jackass customer enters the ISP's smtp servers and starts mad spamming. 1000 emails later they get shut down so they start relaying. Suddenly the connection is locked down when people start firing off to the abuse department. All they see is your router's ip address. What do you think will happen? - MikeWazowski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2There is no need to run software to prevent people from pulling up inapropriate material, it is the same as them bringing in a porn magazine to your café. If you see it or another customer points it out you simply tell the person to leave the restaurant etc
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You must not work in customer relations/service. All it takes is one incident with inappropriate material and mothers with kids will not come in. Females 17-45 are our demographic. If I was running something with just men as customers and no children then we wouldn't have to worry so much. In a day an age where someone can spill coffee in their own lap and win millions we operators have to be very careful.
- CPUGUy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Well, don't forget costs of your building, electricity, that muzak station, etc...
There are a lot more costs than the materials of the coffee and the labor.
And you figure you are going to have at least 2 employees on out front, and then a manager on top of that at all times. So that's what, $14/hr of part-time employees and then at least $30k a year +benefits for the manager.
Then on top of that.. I live in Tampa and a good place to put a coffee shop would cost at least $2k/month.
There are more costs than meet the eye. - kc7gr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Recognizing that it's wise to block SOME ports to keep the bandwidth hogs away, I would add that a pet peeve of mine has been more than one WiFi network that blocks the ports used by VPN traffic. Doing so pretty much turns the affected network into a 'Why Bother?'
Oddly enough, the Best Western hotel chain quickly went from being the worst offender along these lines to being the best, with all the locations I've been to so far allowing both IPSec or PPTP. I strongly suspect this was a result of their business travelers complaining that the first generation of their much-vaunted "Free High-Speed Wireless" amenity was useless for getting any real work done while on the road.
Keep the peace(es). - HMTKSteve, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Run out of leases?
Are these people using 192.168.0.x for their network?
Why not just use 10.x.x.x for your network and forget about it? - amigiac, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"All the DHCP lease can even theoretically do is make things worse. When it functions properly and the leases are renewed after 30 minutes, nothing is accomplished."
WRONG! How many people stay longer than 30mins, say you made the lease 4 hours on an open AP, if enough people connect you run out of leases and people can't connect. - joeyjojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"What we have are business men/women and college student coming in for a working lunch."
Set the DHCP timeout to 15 minutes over the lunch rush. As a Wi-Fi loving laptop owner, I'd completely appreciate the fact that over lunch, you need to accomodate diners before computer users. - diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Capitalism does not favor anything, but the best product/service. Government grants favors like big contracts, indemnification or approved monopolies. I do not fear socialism, when it is voluntary. But, when it is enforced by government, it becomes tyranny.
- whoutz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I don't know how coffee houses can make money when every table is monopolized for 4hrs by computer users who aren't buying coffee. I know that if I come into one of these computer labs, i'll leave, or wont come back... because why come if I won't even get a table? What happened to that slashdot article about the company that turned internet off during peak hours so that there would be more turn over. If you only sold 20 lattes (20 tables) every four hours in chicago, you'd go out of business yesterday. I love taking my computer to the caffee, but I understand that it takes money to keep it going.
- rs, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@amphora: you mean visa doesn't follow their own advice and only transmit the credit card data under strong encryption from the POS terminals? "do as i say, not as i do". hmmm.
- diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1For a library, I had them get a separate Internet connection and placed an open wireless router. Encryption only protects on the LAN, not the web. We suggested clients use antivirus, antispyware and firewalls. Simply, the library biggest fear is that a filtered connection will get them in trouble for not filtering enough. They went with, "It's their PC, they protect it." To keep people driving up no the sidewalk, we put it on a timer and it is on only when they are open. They have very little trouble with it and patrons do not need help configuring the connection, XP does it all.
- ohcoaster, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"One of my local coffee shops has browser-detection code in its portal page. Browser detection? What are we, cave men?!?"
What's the big deal about browser detection? It's an 'extinct' method? - shmatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1otherland
=
clueless - joeyjojo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The parable demonstrates how unrestricted access to a resource such as a pasture ultimately dooms the resource because of over-exploitation."
In other words in real life, not in theory, "equal" ownership of resources does lead to abuse of resources. Socialism only works in theory. But real life isn't theory."
That example *is* american capitalism. That's not equal ownership. That's 'he who has the most power/muscle will take all at the expense of the others and the resource'
"If you don't believe this, how 'bout pointing out a real life example of "equal" ownership not leading to abuse of resources?"
The national park system has worked fairly well, but, these days, is being co-opted by capitalism.
An ecosystem is a good example of equal ownership.
Communism, on paper, is exactly that. Alas, in practice, opportunistic humans tend to foul it up. - spectre_25gt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you have the knowledge, http://www.mikrotik.com/ offers linux based routers that are pretty rock solid and offer a lot more than many others.
- antron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2joeyjojo:
Sounds like you're ignoring the Tragedy Of The Commons parable
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
"The parable demonstrates how unrestricted access to a resource such as a pasture ultimately dooms the resource because of over-exploitation."
In other words in real life, not in theory, "equal" ownership of resources does lead to abuse of resources. Socialism only works in theory. But real life isn't theory.
If you don't believe this, how 'bout pointing out a real life example of "equal" ownership not leading to abuse of resources? - Chompy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Pile: sig spam is not welcome here.
- Phlegyas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1He complains about how intrusive a captive portal page is, and then suggests WPA, which, as mentioned, will encrypt your traffic to the router only, and no further. As was recommended in the comments, use VPN, SSH, HTTPS or other truely encrypted protocols. Also, in most cases, the coffee shop IS liable for connections originating from it's IP address. If I were a l33t h4x0r, I know where I would go to get my work done...his coffee shop! No port blocking, no accountability...perfect.
- wilderf353, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The paid version (from $8-16/month) of PublicIP allows you to print out tickets that can be used for XX mins. You can do that when the customer buys a coffee or somthing. See http://www.publicip.com/features.php?anchor=tickets.
-
Show 51 - 70 of 70 discussions
Browsing Digg on your phone just got easier with our enhancements to the 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is