Discover the best of the web!
Learn more about Digg by taking the tour.
The Real Facts About The H-1B Visa
techcareers.com — Due to both outsourcing and insourcing, many young people are concluding that technology is a bad place to invest their time," says Mark Thoma, a professor of economics at the University of Oregon in Eugene.
thinkingserious- 436 diggs
- digg it
- sjbdallas, on 10/10/2007, -21/+18If the IT industry were unionized, the H-1B visa wouldn't exist.
- anks329, on 10/10/2007, -2/+20The H-1B visa doesn't just apply to IT professionals. Any company that wants to hire a foreign worker uses the H-1B.
- Smoot, on 10/10/2007, -4/+17"If the IT industry were unionized, the H-1B visa wouldn't exist."
Right, the industry would simply move to India or Eastern Europe.- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -6/+6No, it would not. There are specific advantages to being in, understanding, and participating in the market for which you make products. There are advantages to being close to management and marketing and sales departments. There are huge disadvantages to having engineering in one country and everyone else at home, because heaven knows management does not want to move to a third-world country. Due to all of this, there is a certain amount of IT jobs that will NEVER move overseas, regardless of the economic situation.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1HAHAHAHA...were you alive just 4 years ago when management was off shoring everything in IT to China, India, and other wonderful third world countries? Did you sleep through that?
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Yes, I was in the industry at that time. And even after that culling, there are still tons of IT jobs here in the US. The jobs that are still here are positions that are more difficult to offshore and positions that aren't likely to go.
Microsoft is still here. So is Amazon, Google, Yahoo, Cisco, Intel, Sun, Oracle, and more. Sure, they have an overseas presence, but they'll never completely move overseas. The management is American and Americans don't want to live in the third world. The jobs that were easy to offshore have already left.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Yes, I was in the industry at that time. And even after that culling, there are still tons of IT jobs here in the US. The jobs that are still here are positions that are more difficult to offshore and positions that aren't likely to go.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1HAHAHAHA...were you alive just 4 years ago when management was off shoring everything in IT to China, India, and other wonderful third world countries? Did you sleep through that?
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -6/+6No, it would not. There are specific advantages to being in, understanding, and participating in the market for which you make products. There are advantages to being close to management and marketing and sales departments. There are huge disadvantages to having engineering in one country and everyone else at home, because heaven knows management does not want to move to a third-world country. Due to all of this, there is a certain amount of IT jobs that will NEVER move overseas, regardless of the economic situation.
- gclef, on 10/10/2007, -5/+25Many tech folks don't want a union. I certainly don't want one. Unions reward longevity over skill: you will never get promoted faster than the guy who's been there longer, even if you're better than he is, in a union shop. That's not okay...if I'm doing better work than some other guy, I expect to be rewarded and promoted accordingly. That won't happen in a union shop.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -9/+4You must like working 60-70 hour weeks for less salary than you're worth, especially while the code you create earns your company millions. You must like the fact that you can be forced to train your Indian replacement who gets paid a fifth of your salary, and then get laid off two weeks later. You must like the fact that the instant you hit 40, you'll be considered old and out of date, and then replaced by some 25 year old pulling a lower salary.
Join a union and get paid what you're actually worth while working 40-hour weeks. Join a union and you can fight your job going overseas. Join a union and you won't be forced out of work when you hit 40.
Tech workers who don't want a union are stupid.- bigjimslade, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Yes, look at the great things unions have done to the auto and steel industries. The best cars made in the US are made by non-union employees. Unions are going away, no doubt about it. The AFL/CIO knows this. They have little to no use anymore. They were created in an environment that didn't need to compete internationally.
I like being rewarded for performance - not for longevity. There's nothing - NOTHING - any union can do about outsourcing...except speed it up.
"Tech workers who don't want a union are stupid." Tech workers who belong to a union are closer to being laid off than tech workers that aren't in a union.
You're a dinosaur.- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2You're an idiot. Our nation has been competing internationally since it was created. The difference now is that we have a bunch of jackasses in control who believe that all the old trade rules and laws which made the US a great and powerful nation needed to be eliminated. So, we have real wages that are lower than they were 30 years ago. We have a trade deficit that has only been growing for 30 years. We have a national debt that has only gone up for 30 years. That is a direct result of the decline in unions, the decline of the worker, and the empowerment of the rich, wealthy CEOs, including President Bush.
The problems in the auto industry are the result of bad management sticking with big, fuel-guzzing autos in the age of $70/barrel oil. Bad management is also to blame for Ford and GMC not fulling implementing a total quality management program like Toyota uses to produce quality vehicles. The reason that Toyota has a Prius while Ford and GMC have nothing equivalent has nothing to do with the fact that Toyota doesn't have a union while Ford and GMC do. No, that again is just bad management.
Want to fix America? Bring the union back and empower workers again, not those dirty CEO-types who want to rape America like Bush.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2You're an idiot. Our nation has been competing internationally since it was created. The difference now is that we have a bunch of jackasses in control who believe that all the old trade rules and laws which made the US a great and powerful nation needed to be eliminated. So, we have real wages that are lower than they were 30 years ago. We have a trade deficit that has only been growing for 30 years. We have a national debt that has only gone up for 30 years. That is a direct result of the decline in unions, the decline of the worker, and the empowerment of the rich, wealthy CEOs, including President Bush.
- gclef, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Nice hyperbole. Pity it's *****. I work a regular 40 hours, get paid well, and open-source my code. My job requires me to be physically present, so I'm not going to get outsourced, either. You're wrong.
Also, I note with no small bit of amusement that you didn't address my problem with unions, you just threw around invective. Have you ever worked in a union shop? I have, and I didn't like it, for the reasons I stated above. You sound like someone who is more enamored with the idea of a union than someone who has actually worked with one.
- bigjimslade, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Yes, look at the great things unions have done to the auto and steel industries. The best cars made in the US are made by non-union employees. Unions are going away, no doubt about it. The AFL/CIO knows this. They have little to no use anymore. They were created in an environment that didn't need to compete internationally.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -9/+4You must like working 60-70 hour weeks for less salary than you're worth, especially while the code you create earns your company millions. You must like the fact that you can be forced to train your Indian replacement who gets paid a fifth of your salary, and then get laid off two weeks later. You must like the fact that the instant you hit 40, you'll be considered old and out of date, and then replaced by some 25 year old pulling a lower salary.
- Gzero, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6I read that as un-ionized..
- atdigg, on 10/10/2007, -8/+15And still most of the people complain about Mexicans and how they take the street cleaning jobs away from the Americans...
- mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3This makes no sense. Automation took away the street sweeping jobs and I don't hear anyone saying that Mexicans are taking away our jobs. Nobody wants to do the jobs they do. What I hear is that they use our precious services like schools and clinics.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Mexicans are taking jobs in hotels, construction, and food service. And I guarantee, those ARE jobs that Americans want and do.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1When was the last time you saw an American trying to get a low level service job unless they were in school or had 0 trade skills?
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1About 25% of white Americans don't graduate high school. That number goes to about 50% for black and hispanic American citizens. Those are the people competing for those jobs.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Mexicans are taking jobs in hotels, construction, and food service. And I guarantee, those ARE jobs that Americans want and do.
- jkays, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Yet another myth busted by the test of time. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/24/AR2007072402026.html
Medicaid rolls declined in many states after Congress imposed new documentation requirements, but most of the drop-off appears to be among people eligible for coverage -- not among illegal immigrants. A law that took effect July 1, 2006, requires states to obtain evidence of citizenship and nationality when determining Medicaid eligibility.
- mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3This makes no sense. Automation took away the street sweeping jobs and I don't hear anyone saying that Mexicans are taking away our jobs. Nobody wants to do the jobs they do. What I hear is that they use our precious services like schools and clinics.
- crazydiode, on 10/10/2007, -9/+29I have been on H1-B for quite some time now and AFAIK first preference is always given to permanent residents. With the increase in H1 fees, most companies prefer to hire GC or citizens. And a majority of them state that in their ad that H1's need not apply. But the fact remains that people of H1 are mostly exploited by consultancies.
- sljepi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I agree. H1B is a pact with a devil if you work for a commercial company.On the other hand, working for a large research university on H1B has it perks.
- useful, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5To get a H1B visa you have to prove that no citizen is as qualified as the applicant. The problem with this is that most companies advertise jobs with the intention of disqualifying all citizens. Thats why you see jobs that want 4 years of working experience with a 4 year degree for 12/hour.
- fortezza, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2the other tactic is to require 10 years experience with a technology that came out last month, or require a mix of unrelated technologies/skills that have not ever been found in a single human being. That way, it is easy to disqualify local applicants. Hmm, I see you have you CPA that qualitfies you for this accounting job, but you don't know how to rebuild a car engine? Our accountants have to change oil as part of their job.
- bubbadoo989, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5*****! I work on Wall St., where whole floors of developers have become h1b... they have replaced much higher compensated individuals. Certainly, there job postings that specify US Citizens or green card holders, but look carefully, these spots require you know C++, smalltalk, java, hibernate, oracle, db2 , sybase... well you get the idea... the laundry list of skills is just way too long to fill with a real person... hence the shortage of skilled labor.
H1b visa holders may not be treated well, but think about the higher priced citizen you're replacing, who has no job... and no prospects.- johnny23, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Maybe that higher priced citizen should lower his/her asking price. You work on wall street and don't know anything about profit motive?
- machambi, on 10/10/2007, -8/+8blog spam - real article here
http://www.techcareers.com/content/article.asp?articleID=201200189- thinkingserious, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3What? You are linking to the same website... My link is to the editorial note follow up by the same website/company.
- Cheirdal, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3Machambi's link has more meat it in than the original link, though. Still a good find.
- thinkingserious, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3What? You are linking to the same website... My link is to the editorial note follow up by the same website/company.
- AriaStar, on 10/10/2007, -7/+17I work at a company with many workers on H1-B visas. My own boyfriend, who also works here, is fro a foreign country as well. What he told me is that companies will often lists jobs on their sites without the intention of actually filling them with an American worker just to "show" that they are making the attempt. I go back and forth on this. I mean, hiring Americans at American salaries would drive a lot of prices up. So it's either jobs for Americans or lower prices. One of the other. Take your pick.
- douggmc, on 10/10/2007, -8/+12Read your 3rd to the last sentence a few times .... then tell me you aren't a retard with that type of logic.
Here's a clue: Would it matter to you how low of a price your hamburger was, if you didn't have a job?- enzomatrixx2, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10you just don't get it, do you? everytime you protect an industry, you hike up prices. she's right about the logic. yes, it is that simple. guess what, the country has more than just YOU as one person. because protectionism only protects the intended industry, and screw everybody else, which is about 90% of the population. you give this person THAT particular job, you pay more. you give him a job that pays slightly less, then prices go down, so it wouldn't matter that he's getting paid slightly less anyway. demand and supply, get it? we don't import things because we can't make them. it's because it's cheaper to import them. we can spend our time making something else that's more worthwhile, then export them. same thing with jobs.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -5/+2Idiot. If all our good jobs are outsourced, then it won't matter how cheap products are because no one will have any money to buy them. You can then kiss our economy and our country goodbye. Good jobs ARE worth some protection. God, I hate dumbasses like you.
- johnny23, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1Well, the world needs ditchdiggers too, *****. pick up a ***** shovel and get to work.
- bubbadoo989, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2You're both assholes.
- joebob, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3This has nothing to do with protecting an industry, or even protecting one industry. That entire line of reasoning is infantile and irrelevant to this.
H1B's are specifically for importing workers with the sponsership of industry. You are making the assertion that one the basis of claimed need by a corporation that someone should be granted a visa to fill that position. If you want to insist on the oversimplified system of supply and demand which you equate this to, then consider the inequality in the forumla you set up.
You fill 1 position with someone willing to make less from another country. So you then import said person to do the job. The beaurocracy involved alone saves the company 10's of thousands of dollars each as the party being imported must stay in the same position and salary in order to expedite permanent citizenship. The individual that would otherwise have had that position is now looking to take another position thereby reducing the availability and artificially expanding the supply. So you have net difference in government beaurocracy expenditure, differences in incoming tax collected on the income not being paid, the additional native citizen who is displaced resulting in higher unemployment expenditure, lower average wage, and reduced incoming tax dollars from all of the same. All for the net gain of the corporation who is more likely to simply take the additional half a cent per unit cost savings as profit as to pass it on to any consumer base.
But then again we're americans. We can't be forced to think about anything long term. It's not like our increasing reliance on foreign imports will have a negative effect... - JackOfAllTech, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1The more jobs that pay middle class and upper middle class wages that are lost the greater economic inequality in this country becomes. We are told over and over again that it is consumer spending that drives 70% of the American economy. But then we are told that it's OK if jobs that pay well are eliminated. Doesn't anyone see the inherent contradictions in those two statements?
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -5/+2Idiot. If all our good jobs are outsourced, then it won't matter how cheap products are because no one will have any money to buy them. You can then kiss our economy and our country goodbye. Good jobs ARE worth some protection. God, I hate dumbasses like you.
- enzomatrixx2, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10you just don't get it, do you? everytime you protect an industry, you hike up prices. she's right about the logic. yes, it is that simple. guess what, the country has more than just YOU as one person. because protectionism only protects the intended industry, and screw everybody else, which is about 90% of the population. you give this person THAT particular job, you pay more. you give him a job that pays slightly less, then prices go down, so it wouldn't matter that he's getting paid slightly less anyway. demand and supply, get it? we don't import things because we can't make them. it's because it's cheaper to import them. we can spend our time making something else that's more worthwhile, then export them. same thing with jobs.
- superman970, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Just one comment: you get what you pay for.
- simpleblob, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Unless there are price control, in which case you will get LESS what you pay for.
The H1B is an example. - allenu, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2So paying for music gives you more value than stealing it, right?
- bubbadoo989, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Umm, yes, but quality is not JOB 1 in the US today. Keeping the CEO in the style he/she has become accustomed is JOB 1.
- simpleblob, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Unless there are price control, in which case you will get LESS what you pay for.
- liquidjamm, on 10/10/2007, -3/+5heh, not only they are taking our jobs, now they are taking our women;
Thay turk ar wiiimeen
:)- boss007, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0do you have one ?
- joebob, on 10/10/2007, -2/+9So with that line of thinking, we can solve healthcare by replacing all medical professionals with imports from Cuba and pay them 1/4 as much.
Please consider that line of thinking in more detail, or... well any detail.- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I don't think the current H1B quota will cover ALL health professionals even if they were the only group of people using the quota.
- LuTze, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1You do realize a large fraction of residencies in out of the way places and odd hours are filled with people of H1Bs, right?
- joebob, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Forest meet trees.
It was a conceptual remark not my campaign platform for president on how to solve healthcare in 1 easy step. And I would have some doubt as to what you consider a 'large fraction.' Any backup to support it? - fortezza, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1You were doing good until the last sentence. If you cut out entry level jobs then college grads/highschool grads have no "first rung" of the ladder for them to start climbing up. Eventually the ones that go on the ladder before the first run was removed retire, and then the country has lost ability to function in that industry.Also, economic fact, more disposable income = more spending = strong economy, as long as the money stays within the local economy.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I don't think the current H1B quota will cover ALL health professionals even if they were the only group of people using the quota.
- cmburns69, on 10/10/2007, -2/+9I've seen this too. At a previous company, a worker was being sponsored for a green card. The company had to prove that it would be a hardship to replace him with a citizen, so they asked him to provide a job description which only he could fill (which was then used as proof that he was necessary). I give this as an anecdote of the corruption that exists in the system.
- ryanobjc, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4You clearly don't know anything about the green card process if this is your evidence of corruption.
Firstly, Green Cards are not H1-Bs. The burden to obtain a Green Card is very high. The total cost is about $10,000 or more. This includes lawyer fees, filing fees, all sorts of clerical work necessary. Sponsoring someone for a Green Card is not something a company does lightly or does to reduce costs.
Secondly, the process does not work as you describe. The company provides a job description which they then POST and solicit resumes. The Department of Labour who handles this process (called Labour Cert, PERM, etc) audits and monitors to ensure the job descriptions are reasonable and expected for the job title (which has to match the DOL database of job titles). Only once you run a hiring campaign to find candidates (perhaps you might hire some and still need more) and fail then can you get DOL certified and then move onto getting a Green Card (multi-year wait).
The H1-B process does not resemble this at all. There is a much lower burden of proof necessary.
At the companies me and my friends have worked at, none of them lowballed H1-B salaries. H1-Bs were paid what everyone else was paid.
My understanding is a large number of the H1-B visas go to outsourced consulting companies to bring their indian staff to the US for 4 months to get trained by US personelle. During this period, they get paid prevailing wage, but are expected to work their asses off.
- ryanobjc, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4You clearly don't know anything about the green card process if this is your evidence of corruption.
- LiterateWolf, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Idiot. Low prices won't matter if you can't afford housing, food, fuel, transportation, clothing, and healthcare. Free trade done wonders for Mexico with 2/3 of the population living in poverty. Economics is bunk "science" at best and religion at worst.
- VitriolAndAngst, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I pick Higher prices...
... of course, it's the market that decides prices -- so it would mean better jobs for Americans at the sacrifice of a few CEOs going without the $10 Million per year salary.
Call me crazy, but I'll go for what is good for our economy and most people. I don't think executives ***** gold. Otherwise all these Multinational companies would be showing profits -- oh yeah, the get tax breaks, pay more for things and funnel the profits to tax havens -- that's how GM can go in the red year over year. - ronintetsuro, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2This is a no-brainer. I'll pick higher prices, jobs for Americans, everytime. Higher tides raise all boats. Wal-Mart has brainwashed you to think the bottom line is the only thing that matters. Nice work.
- douggmc, on 10/10/2007, -8/+12Read your 3rd to the last sentence a few times .... then tell me you aren't a retard with that type of logic.
- drlha, on 10/10/2007, -1/+16If the government did their job and actually enforced the "prevailing wage" laws in a meaningful way with H-1B applicants, then the issue of H-1Bs being low paid wouldn't be an issue. As usually, the laws are fine, but the implementation is *****.
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -6/+25Well, Duh... why would any smart American kid waste their time and money only to get undercut by cheap foreign labor... The IT industry is dead in America... it's gone the way of manufacturing... I mean it's bad enough they shipped off all our jobs overseas, they have to destroy the few remaining jobs at home, too?
- DesignEx, on 10/10/2007, -3/+12Almost every person in America has had to deal with an IT guy (or tech support) who could not properly speak English, and it only compounded the problem. If these companies were to see how important it is that the employees are native speakers, this problem wouldn't be so drastic. If you pay less, you are going to get less- there is always a cost.
- ishwarchand, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Hey, it is not that they dont speak proper english. they can speak english pretty well, its the accent which causes a problem. and trust me, just like you dont understand theirs, they sometimes have no idea what the hell you are saying because they cant understand your accent. it is the companies outsourcing who are at fault on that. big BPOs in India actually train their employees to talk with an americanized accent, and if you talk with them, you wont have a problem. it is the smaller firms who cut costs by not training their employees and the entire outsourcing firms get a bad name.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3I have had to deal with American tech support who have no idea what they are doing. Is having a crappy tech who speaks with an American accent any better than a crappy tech who speaks with a foreign accent?
Most Companies are viewing tech support as an expense which needs to be cut down rather than as a method to retain their existing customers. They always go for the lowest bidders and thus you get crappy techs, regardless of their accent.- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1At least with American tech support you can move up the food chain by forcing the issue...with the outsourced help desks you have to wait until they finish their damn script...
Thanks for the help "Robert"
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1At least with American tech support you can move up the food chain by forcing the issue...with the outsourced help desks you have to wait until they finish their damn script...
- Homunculiheaded, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5I think we also need to define 'IT', because here in Cambridge, MA I see tons of employers fighting to really get and keep talented CS people. I see no shortage in demand for talented software engineers, and computer scientists. Even outside of hi-tech research really solid programmers and developers still seem to be in pretty high demand. Hell even systems annalists seem to be busy and growing in this area. If IT is dead, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2@lordmike:
Just because America is not the SOLE SOURCE of IT in the world anymore, it does not mean that the IT industry is dead here. If you have no problems starting a business, there is a large untapped resource for IT services. It is also not outsourcable. The flip side is you have to do the hard work of finding clients.
Taking a quick look at craigslist and dice I see LOTS of jobs being posted. Get good references and keep a well written resume. Do research about the company you applied to and write how you will help that company if hired, in your cover letter. Trust me, preparing properly will net you a good job with the salary that you want.- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Have you looked at some of the postings? Must have 10 years experience with Windows 2003 (ya...lemme get on that), but be an expert in C, C++, Perl, Java, Linux, Unix, Windows, db2, SQL, Apache, IIS, Cisco, Tamberg, Polycomm, ITIL, embedded systems, and project management.
I'll get right on that.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Have you looked at some of the postings? Must have 10 years experience with Windows 2003 (ya...lemme get on that), but be an expert in C, C++, Perl, Java, Linux, Unix, Windows, db2, SQL, Apache, IIS, Cisco, Tamberg, Polycomm, ITIL, embedded systems, and project management.
- encognito, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4The reasons why I barely got into and rapidly got out of IT:
1) Dot-com bust of 2001
2) High education and experience requirements which have to be continuously updated
3) Low salary for average to above average workers
When a library clerk with a high school diploma can pull $50K with excellent benefits, why should a student struggle to get a master's degree in EE to make the same amount of scratch? And this is five years after the boom! You have to be a frigging STAR to crack six figures in tech or go into management and if you do that you might as well get your MBA instead of your MS or PhD in something technical. Personally, I regulated tech to hobby status and focused on real estate. I still see divorced mothers of two with a high school degree making six figures in real estate. And that's just agent/appraisal level, not broker, finance or investments. Just my humble observations. - w0rd, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1I work with the real estate industry and can tell you without reservation that all of these random people with hardly any sales skills are dropping like flies. The fat is being trimmed because the waterhole is getting smaller and smaller. Real estate isn't the best place to be right now unless you already know what you're doing and have a good referral base. The best guy I know is moving on to construction loans where there is more work in the short term but the payoff is great in the long run.
- DesignEx, on 10/10/2007, -3/+12Almost every person in America has had to deal with an IT guy (or tech support) who could not properly speak English, and it only compounded the problem. If these companies were to see how important it is that the employees are native speakers, this problem wouldn't be so drastic. If you pay less, you are going to get less- there is always a cost.
- garryw, on 10/10/2007, -3/+24People complain about the lack of interest in math and science in our schools. No kidding, it doesn't pay well anymore. High school kids are smarter than they dress.
Kill the H1B and lack of supply will drive up salaries and people will start to be interested again.- cmburns69, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2So if math and science based jobs don't pay well anymore, what DOES pay well?
- garryw, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Being a nurse. Sure you have to collect urine but it pays much better than tech jobs. My sister just finished nursing school and she's making 80K. No *****. She says the shortage is huge.
- zolaar, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Movie star, NFL Football player/coach, Supermodel, Singer/songwriter, NBA Basketball player/coach, Reality TV Star, Professional Hotel Heir/Heiress...
Those jobs tend to pay well, maybe we should just tell the kiddies to quit doing that hard math or writing those stupid poems and start working on ways to kill mommy & daddy to make it look like an accident (after making yourself both executor and sole estate inheritor, naturally). Hint: may involve some problem solving. - LiterateWolf, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1CATO pays well. I'm surprised that they don't outsource since thier employees can afford a home.
- garryw, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Oh yeah and I forgot this one. You can be an insurance salesman and make big bucks too. No math or science required.
- jkays, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1Wishful thinking, the jobs will always follow the talent as evidenced by Microsoft opening a new office in Canada. Keep on dreaming, the job might just fall into your lap.
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Microsoft has been planning on opening that office years ago, they just tried to spin it as an H1-B thing recently, so they could get some low-paid help... no wonder their products are crap...
- raada, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2The whole reason they have H1B is because there already IS a lack of supply... If an American, with my qualifications, would apply for my job, my company would be forced to hire him. After posting my job 5 times in the newspaper, no one applied. The few Americans, who has similar experience as me, already have well-paying jobs.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I have a number of questions:
1) Where are you located? That could be an issue
2) What are the requisite for the job?
3) What papers are you posting in? Have you tried Dice?
4) What is the pay rate?
5) What is the job?
6) What are the hours?
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I have a number of questions:
- cmburns69, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2So if math and science based jobs don't pay well anymore, what DOES pay well?
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -2/+17There is a firm that teaches companies how not to hire Americans, and only hire H-1b visa holders. I can't find the link I wanted but this video talks about the company:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA - blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -2/+16How not to hire an American:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zs8m3MzRw4&mode=related&search= - xshaisu, on 10/10/2007, -3/+3http://www.zazona.com/shameh1b/
- Kimmyis, on 10/10/2007, -5/+3In order to hire someone into with an H-1b visa you have to prove you are paying the them prevailing wage. Often, especially in small communities like Roseburg Oregon, the wage is actually higher than Americans in like possitions are getting paid. I used to work at an immigration attorney's office and was surprised at how widely the wages varied from what it seemed like people were really getting.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Right. It is not true that H1Bs are hired just for the low wages. I went from F1 -> H1B -> Green card and outside of my first job (while as an F1 with a work authorization card) I was able to negotiate my wages pretty well. Then again I knew the current wage structure.
True there are companies who do exploit H1Bs and leaving a crappy job to get a new one under H1B is quite possibly the most painful thing other than putting a 1000lb block on your balls.- allenu, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Agreed. I'm on H-1B and am getting paid the same as the locals. But really, is the pay the issue? Imagine if H-1Bs were getting paid MORE on average than citizens. People would still get upset over that.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4People are upset because what they assumed would be a 200K per year job is not. Though I have seen many qualified applicants whether they be on a H1B or GC/Citizen get what they ask for. Most of the time its all about references.
At my last employer we had a LOT of H1Bs and many of them DID make more money than some of the citizens (within same job range) specifically because of their skills and references.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4People are upset because what they assumed would be a 200K per year job is not. Though I have seen many qualified applicants whether they be on a H1B or GC/Citizen get what they ask for. Most of the time its all about references.
- allenu, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Agreed. I'm on H-1B and am getting paid the same as the locals. But really, is the pay the issue? Imagine if H-1Bs were getting paid MORE on average than citizens. People would still get upset over that.
- bubbadoo989, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I'm proud of you both... But I doubt you're really being paid prevailing wage if you're h1b. Really unlikely.
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I'm on an H1-b and it does start competitive. But the government takes so long to process the green cards that your wage freezes because you can't get promoted or move to a new job so they clog the old one and have the same wage. Often it takes ten years to get a green card. You can transfer to a new job only with substantial risks to your green card application.
In the tech industry, three years of experience counts for a lot. Probably $30K moving from a Jr. to a mid level position. More in California. But H1-b people are frozen on the increases companies give to employees in the same job every year. (
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I'm on an H1-b and it does start competitive. But the government takes so long to process the green cards that your wage freezes because you can't get promoted or move to a new job so they clog the old one and have the same wage. Often it takes ten years to get a green card. You can transfer to a new job only with substantial risks to your green card application.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Right. It is not true that H1Bs are hired just for the low wages. I went from F1 -> H1B -> Green card and outside of my first job (while as an F1 with a work authorization card) I was able to negotiate my wages pretty well. Then again I knew the current wage structure.
- CLMalan, on 10/10/2007, -10/+5The IT industry is not remotely dead...yet. We are still better poised than anyone to take advantage of the industry. However, at some point we are going to have to admit that we now live in a global age. Hiding from it only prevents the inevitable and allows for a slow painful decay rather than a rapid, "ripping off the band-aid," painful but realistic introduction to the new economic world. For those who frequently write about and worry about the outsourcing issue, I would direct them to the historically low unemployment rate and ask: What are you so worried about? The reality is that history shows us everything changes; all the time and in every way. To be successful, you accept the changes, adapt to the changes and compete under the new rules. If you want to go extinct, complain about how things are getting worse, be determined to stay the same and then watch as you become obsolete. Dinosaurs are nice, but cockroaches will survive the meteor shower. Think about it.
- superman970, on 10/10/2007, -5/+5So you are comparing H-1 workers to cockroaches - pretty fair assessment, actually......
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Xenophobia is a great thing isnt it ?
- boss007, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0well, your intellectual ability can not compete. I am sure u DO NOT understand.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4What are we worried about? This is the first time in SIX YEARS that salaries have actually gone up, some FOUR years after the recession supposedly ended. Right now, I'm fairly secure in my job, but it wasn't that long ago when I trained my Indian replacement and then got a boot in my ass. I'm still afraid of the time when I hit 40, since then I'll be considered old, over the hill, and outdated and likely replaced by someone 25, fresh out of college, and cheaper.
Things are good now, but don't expect them to stay that way. Senators are already pushing to increase the number of H1-Bs again. They had an amendment attached to the Immigration bill which would have done that. Once the H1-B increase actually passes, expect the ***** to hit the fan. - JackOfAllTech, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Cheaper is not always better. In far too many firms the allure of a bid for lower costs causes a strange inability to consider all of the factors that can crop up when suddenly the majority of your staff is in India or your H1B employee is lured back to his home country by someone who wants to compete with you and suddenly your some of your IP has migrated as well.
- ronintetsuro, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2It's been shown numerous times that the reason we have a historically low unemployment rate is because the people who have to work multiple jobs to keep things afloat aren't factored in. On purpose or not I suppose depends on your political view, but take this quote from a Bush Townhall meeting:
Bush: "... and how many jobs do you have?"
Lady: "3."
Bush: "THREE JOBS!? Well how bout that. Now that's uniquely American, isn't it?"
It sure is. It's unique in that we're the richest country in the world and a large swath of our population needs to have multiple employers just to make ends meet. You can take your record unemployment numbers and try to sell that to someone else, because us blue collar folk aren't buying it.
- superman970, on 10/10/2007, -5/+5So you are comparing H-1 workers to cockroaches - pretty fair assessment, actually......
- superman970, on 10/10/2007, -2/+7If you have less than 5-7 years of experience in software development, you will find it tough to get started in a career in IT. It's kind of like choosing a career in architecture - you might have start out swinging a hammer in the beginning, at which point you'll be competing with with a lot of "foreign workers". If you can get enough experience under your belt, you'll be able to leave them behind, because from what I've seen, that's as far as their skill set can take them.
- boss007, on 10/10/2007, -3/+1a very good THEORY !
- enzomatrixx2, on 10/10/2007, -6/+4first of all, the IT industry is NOT dead. there's plenty plenty plenty of jobs out there in IT, and if Americans want them, it's not a problem in getting it. second of all, i don't think most people know economics and the concept of barriers at all. in short, it's bad. it just is. it's the same thing with the manufacturing industry and the agriculture industry.. we've been protecting those and provide subsidies and import duties that drives the prices up. guess who ends up paying more. we do. globalization, people..
- mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Bringing in cheap endentured labor doesn't have anything to do with globalization. Opposing it has nothing to do with protectionism. If H1B's were allowed to compete on an even playing field with us, then I would say welcome to my fellow technoids. But what's being done to them, and to us, is unnatural and wrong.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1And considering the number of jobs which explicitly state 'Citizens or Green Card holders only' I am not surprised. A quick look on craigslist in my area (Greater Seattle Area) turns up many job listings every day for citizens and green card holders only. I have demanded pretty decent salaries from my last 2 employers and received it, even though there were applicants who bid lower. Guess its all about having good resume and references.
- flaterates, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9And now the argument is being heard in the hallways in the nation's capitol. Lawmakers are deciding how to change the visa program, how to lock down its many loopholes and how to ensure that American technology workers don't get pushed out of their career paths.
Wrong!! They're going to do everything possible to ensure that Americans are pushed out of their career paths. Foreign workers sill work for less, and Democrat and Republican alike work for the bucks. They will absolutely do everything possible to aid big business. - DeepFreezed, on 10/10/2007, -2/+3and discontinuing the H1B will solve all your problems? it will automatically stop out sourcing, give more jobs to everyone and higher pay too?
H1B has a cap of 60,000.- mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Per year. It mounts up. 65,000 this year actually, plus an additional 20,000 who will work on advanced degrees while working.
- Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1Outsourcing will continue regardless. But, there are a considerable number of jobs that will NEVER go overseas.
So yes, discontinuing the H1-B program will solve a lot of problems. The demand for workers will make wages increase. That will also demonstrate to students that their efforts learning science and math are actually valued. We'll then see increases in computer science enrollments again.
- obelixdigg, on 10/10/2007, -7/+12What BS. Does anyone really have a count of how many jobs have actually been created by people who came to US in employment based visas?
At the top of my head:
1) Sun Microsystems
2) Exodus
3) Linksys
and a zillion other startups.
Before any wise ass tells me the founders had a green card or a US citizenship when they started the company:
The ONLY way you can get a Green Card [and thereby a US citizenship] is through some form of employment based visa. It has to be H1B or L1. Most of us came here to study. After we graduate here with a huge loan, what do you want us to do? We get a stupid H1B visa and slave till we get a GC.
The other side of H1B is how consulting companies use that to shift jobs outside the US. That is a different issue and has to be handled differently. Blaming H1B visas for job loss is stupid.- obelixdigg, on 10/10/2007, -4/+5A small list of companies - by a 2 min google founded by people who came here as recent immigrants. Care to count the number of jobs created by them?
1) Aruba
2) Tibco
3) Jam Cracker
4) Intellivision
5) Sycamore
6) i2
7) Epiance
8) Bladelogic
9) Webex
10) AtRoad
11) Juniper
12) Sirf- mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2You should have taken more math before you came over here. You were surprised how much it cost you? Your loans are a burdon? We have pay back the same loans too. I would suggest that you came here never intending to leave and that you have no right to complain since this was a planned, premeditated decision on your part. I, on the other hand, have a great huge bone to pick with the H1B program. Your artificially low wages are taking bread from my children's mouths. You people flooded the market at the cusp of one of our periodic downturns and turned it into a huge disaster that we're still struggling to climb out of. Welcome to America.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4On one end people espouse the benefits of capitalism (when talking about raising minimum wage, about supply and demand, people paying what the work is worth), then complain when they have to compete with lower priced workers themselves. I really don't get it. When its about minimum wage being discussed, noone wants to give more money to the poor because their burgers go up 1 cent. When it comes to their $100/hour job being done by someone else for $95, they complain about low wages.
And wow, blaming all the economic downturn on H1Bs. Yep, its all their fault. They steal your wages while punching babies. - jkays, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3If you lack the skills don't clasp at straws in the air trying to blame others for your woes. Improve your skills and talent and companies will beg to hire you. Its amazing how many people can't afford to take responsibility for their own short comings. H1-B's are 0.07% of the US workforce, find another scapegoat...
- obelixdigg, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Total BS. My H1B salary has NEVER been below market rate. My last labor certification tells me that the minimum wage for a software engineer in Santa Clara County is 108k. You have to be paid at least 108k to be a software engineer in Santa Clara county. My pay is well above that range [and in line with market rates].
One of the biggest urban legends is that H1Bs are paid very low market wages. Personally, it is not true.
This is a great country. It is very welcoming to immigrants. H1B workers like me play by the rule to live our American dream. You really need to figure out the facts before you lay blame on us.
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4On one end people espouse the benefits of capitalism (when talking about raising minimum wage, about supply and demand, people paying what the work is worth), then complain when they have to compete with lower priced workers themselves. I really don't get it. When its about minimum wage being discussed, noone wants to give more money to the poor because their burgers go up 1 cent. When it comes to their $100/hour job being done by someone else for $95, they complain about low wages.
- mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -4/+2You should have taken more math before you came over here. You were surprised how much it cost you? Your loans are a burdon? We have pay back the same loans too. I would suggest that you came here never intending to leave and that you have no right to complain since this was a planned, premeditated decision on your part. I, on the other hand, have a great huge bone to pick with the H1B program. Your artificially low wages are taking bread from my children's mouths. You people flooded the market at the cusp of one of our periodic downturns and turned it into a huge disaster that we're still struggling to climb out of. Welcome to America.
- obelixdigg, on 10/10/2007, -4/+5A small list of companies - by a 2 min google founded by people who came here as recent immigrants. Care to count the number of jobs created by them?
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Here is the link I was looking for, warning if your an American worker it might piss you off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&mode=related&search= - epsilonaurigae, on 10/10/2007, -3/+2this is BS. preference is always given to citizens, gc holders and H1B visa holders in that order. if anybody can slog it out and/or have the requisite skillset they can have the job . these so called kids who are turning away from the IT industry citing the reasons of outsourcing and insourcing are just making excuses and trying to find a job with less work and more money. this laid back attitude is what is costing them these jobs. eventually every job in the US will be outsourced or outsiders will take it because of this attitude. the businesses out there are always trying to increase profits and one day of the other its going to spill over in all types of industries.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Look at the link above your posting, or the other 2 links I provided farther up.
- epsilonaurigae, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0i dont know why we are even looking at that. what they explain in the video is how the consultancies work. but the consultancies themselves dont have any jobs. they send the candidates they have to different clients. these clients are fair American companies who post job ads publicly on numerous internet sites. all American citizens need to do is, send a resume in response to these ads and if he/she has requisite experience. most of the times companies need talent but are not willing to risk full time employees due to legal complications if the employee doesnt perform. any hard-working person can and will keep his job and can convert it into a full-time job as well.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I don't think you watched the video. The video which is part of an online seminar, teaches companies how to bypass the rules they are supposed to be following. It tells them how to reject resumes, post job listings, etc., etc., so the don't need to fill the jobs with American employees. Your statement above is incorrect. They state right out.....How not to hire an American, its the name of the seminar.
You stated above, "all American citizens need to do is, send a resume in response to these ads and if he/she has requisite experience. most of the times companies need talent but are not willing to risk full time employees due to legal complications if the employee doesn't perform". Well if you had bothered to watch the video, you would have seen that they have no interest in hiring American workers......at all. Maybe you should watch it before you post about what is in it.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I don't think you watched the video. The video which is part of an online seminar, teaches companies how to bypass the rules they are supposed to be following. It tells them how to reject resumes, post job listings, etc., etc., so the don't need to fill the jobs with American employees. Your statement above is incorrect. They state right out.....How not to hire an American, its the name of the seminar.
- epsilonaurigae, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0i dont know why we are even looking at that. what they explain in the video is how the consultancies work. but the consultancies themselves dont have any jobs. they send the candidates they have to different clients. these clients are fair American companies who post job ads publicly on numerous internet sites. all American citizens need to do is, send a resume in response to these ads and if he/she has requisite experience. most of the times companies need talent but are not willing to risk full time employees due to legal complications if the employee doesnt perform. any hard-working person can and will keep his job and can convert it into a full-time job as well.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Look at the link above your posting, or the other 2 links I provided farther up.
- patleeman, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7Everyone loves to blame the workers who try to come over and take less money. But has anyone actually stopped and blamed the AMERICAN COMPANIES for hiring these people? These people are just after the bottom line, and the people they hiring are catching ***** because they want to make a living just like everyone else. So get off your asses and stop blaming the easy target and actually look at who is the real culprit. YOUR AMERICAN COMPANIES who are giving your jobs away to people who will take less money.
- CiXeL, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2laid off workers need to burn their workplaces down.
a few times after this occurs companies will begin to take notice. - JackOfAllTech, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0I do blame the companies, not the workers. Blaming the workers never occurred to me to be honest.
- CiXeL, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2laid off workers need to burn their workplaces down.
- ScotchInBox, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Fact: In CT, most of the large insurance companies layed off a large number of IT workers only to directly replace them with foreign nationals. Maybe they were trying to recoup their y2k costs?
To say that companies will hire an American first is totally wrong. Most corporations already have contracts with consulting/offshore companies and they'll use them first. I certainly don't blame any foreign national wanting to work in America, and in fact I can totally see why corporations would use outsourcing. It's a crappy scenario for both worker types, but I think corporate leaders hold the most responsibility and need to take the lead in fixing the problem. - ryanobjc, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7The article is pure garbage. The author is mis-informed to a massive degree. The second paragraph starts with the lie:
"[..] H1-B visas (which essentially allow companies to hire foreign workers for much less than they'd have to pay American-based workers)"
Pure crap. Many companies use H1-B to fill the need for talent, and pay at market rates. The H1-B program requires companies to submit the wage they are paying their employees. If this is in fact less, we have an enforcement issue, not a legal issue.
To broadly paint all H1-B workers as demolishing the US IT industry is not very nice or accurate. I know plenty of H1-B employees who make significant contributions to their employers.- madeingermany, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2If anything, H1B workers are more expensive for companies, who have to pay legal fees and for relocation.
After 6 years the workers are gone or the company has to pay for a Green Card as well.
Like many of my co-workers, I'm working on an H1-B, but we still hire every competent American Developer that comes our way.... it's just not that many that match that description. - lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1"To broadly paint all H1-B workers as demolishing the US IT industry is not very nice or accurate. I know plenty of H1-B employees who make significant contributions to their employers."
At a very low price.. who can argue with that? Except when it is your job they took...
- madeingermany, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2If anything, H1B workers are more expensive for companies, who have to pay legal fees and for relocation.
- shopkinson, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4This article is very poorly written. H1-B visas are not the problem with respect to the declining availability to entry IT positions in America. The problem is overseas labor. H1-B visas at least allow foreign workers to spend the American money they earn in America and in turn helps drive the economy. Overseas labor is now used by most mid to large size companies for which H1-B visa restrictions would have no impact on. If anything the restriction of H1-B visas would create an increase in overseas labor reducing the amount of American earned wages being spent in America.
- madeingermany, on 10/10/2007, -5/+2I just heard from my neighbor that his company brings in Indian Workers for 3 months on a tourist visa.
The workers are payed from India.
That is hurting the American worker.
Not the H1-B people that have to be payed comparable wages and who's positions could not be filled in the states. - jkays, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4http://www.nfap.com/pdf/0507h1Bstudy.pdf
Proportion and Education Level of H-1Bs.
New H-1B professionals accounted for only 0.07 percent of the U.S. labor force in 2006. Contrary to assertions that H-1B visa holders are not highly skilled, official data show 57 percent of recent new H-1B professionals earned a master’s degree or higher, according to the Department of Homeland Security. When companies recruit, often on college campuses, they find qualified Americans and many foreign nationals. In 2005, U.S. universities awarded 55 percent of Masters degrees and 67 percent of PhDs in electrical engineering to foreign nationals, according to the American Association of Engineering Societies.
Impact on U.S. Professionals.
There is little evidence native information technology (IT) workers are harmed by the entry of H-1B professionals. A study by Madeline Zavodny, a research economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, concluded, “None of the results suggest that an influx of H-1Bs . . . lower contemporaneous average earnings. Indeed, many of the results indicate a positive, statistically significant relationship.” This would mean H-1B employment is actually associated with better job conditions for natives because H-1B professionals are complementary to native professionals.
San Francisco Chronicle
April 26, 2006
The $2,000 fee for the H1B visa is spent on science and math education and training. A survey by the National Foundation for American Policy, a nonprofit research group, found that employers have paid more than $1 billion in H1B visa fees since 1999. The fees have funded more than 40,000 scholarships and grants for U.S. students in science and math, and science programs for 75,000 middle and high school students, and provided training for 55,000 U.S. workers and teachers, the study found.
http://www.nfap.com/researchactivities/articles/NFAPPolicyBriefH1BProfessionalsAndWages0306.pdf
U.S. companies hire and recruit globally. In some cases, this means hiring foreign-born individuals on
H-1B temporary visas, many times off U.S. college campuses as part of the normal recruitment process.
In essence, critics assert the only reason a U.S. employer would ever hire someone on an H-1B visa is
because he or she will work cheaper than Americans, implying that only people born in the United States
possess desirable skills. The story that a veritable conspiracy exists in America to hire foreign-born
professionals so they can work cheaply is unsupported by the evidence. Moreover, it runs contrary to
common sense and any serious analysis of how the U.S. labor market functions. - dubbleenerd, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2"...to provide a job description which only he could fill..." So, the company gets highly specialized labor for a technical position. Isn't that the way the industry should work, or am I taking this in the wrong way? Sure, it's hard to discuss about this topic when you (or someone you know) has lost a job to a foreigner (who was technically qualified, mind you). However, (especially) technical industries need to turn a profit given a global competing scale and cannot rely on hiring people who took CS 101, just because they're citizens. H1-Bs are actually good for the country, start opening your perspectives a little, or read a book on global economy. If there were no H1-Bs, this set of skilled labor would be working for competing firms in their home countries, and NOT for the American firm. At least this way, your iPod can read 'Designed in California', instead of 'A Samsung product'.
- 1337diggster, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Its true. I used to be a computer science major but after really analyzing the market I decided to switch my major over to accounting. Was a very easy transition since most of the skills used in CS are some what still applicable to accounting. Also I can easily tell you that accounting is a much more enjoyable profession. CS is still fun but I wouldn't want to be writing code for more than 4-5 hours a day.
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Don't worry, 4-5 hours a day of the average tech guy is stuck in meetings with accountants and mbas.
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Don't worry, 4-5 hours a day of the average tech guy is stuck in meetings with accountants and mbas.
- delhirocks, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2A lot of the US IT jobs are for developing software and services which are used all over the world. 96% of the processors used in Indian computer market are made my Intel and AMD. Designing and R&D of these processors happen in US. This creates a lot of American jobs, maybe 15-20% of these jobs are held by foreigners (H1B). This is an example of just one industry, We can add air crafts, operating systems, consumer electronics, beverages, fast food and scores of other industries to this discussion. This is globalization, and trust me when I say it, the biggest beneficiary of it is US and US citizens
- JackOfAllTech, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Actually every company you mention is busy opening centers outside of the U.S. for every one of those things you cite as being done here. Engineering and design centers are being built in India by every major tech company except those that are trying to find even cheaper labor than India. The latest big airplane being built by Boeing is built partially overseas. My guess is that even more will be built overseas soon.
And there is absolutely no consumer electronics produced in this country. Some design work, yes. But most of that is not even done here.
- JackOfAllTech, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Actually every company you mention is busy opening centers outside of the U.S. for every one of those things you cite as being done here. Engineering and design centers are being built in India by every major tech company except those that are trying to find even cheaper labor than India. The latest big airplane being built by Boeing is built partially overseas. My guess is that even more will be built overseas soon.
- MariusVW, on 10/10/2007, -0/+61) There is a limit to the number of H1-B visas.
2) These foreigners work their fingers to the bone under a company that underpays them for huge profit. (This profit goes back to the American public)
3) The costs to obtain and maintain visas are mostly paid with foreign currency... these guys are under immense pressure to 'make it' to try and break even... where most of our native American workers are complacent and don't care if they fail (they can't get deported etc.)
4) These foreigners are generally successful and thus add to the economy in general and create work. They bring money *into* the country. America's status as a 'place to be' is what's keeping the economy strong IMHO. (That... and oil)
Compare the hate toward H1B holders who have to do everything through expensive legal channels with the disinterest regarding illegal Mexican influx.
And don't talk to me about foreign IT people who can't speak English...
(I'm a holder of a L1 visa and I may be able to break even in about a year.)- JackOfAllTech, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0The profit goes the hiring corporation, not the American public. They are two very different things, especially in today's economic environment.
- ramiro, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1BURIED for being mere scapegoating bovine feces.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0You want proof that companies are playing games and not hiring US workers in favor of H1B Visa works?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
To sum up it's HR lawyers finding loopholes to NOT hire American works. Their goal is: "To NOT find a qualified US worker."- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Show me a government program, and I'll show you cases where it is abused.
Shock horror!- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Killing white collar America is a shock and horror....
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1Show me a government program, and I'll show you cases where it is abused.
- catxors, on 10/10/2007, -1/+2Seriously, thanks for all the informative posts debunking H1B-phobia. Rationally, I think there's no problem, but I can't help but feel a little down when I see people on Slashdot or whatever talking about how tech careers are just dead ends because of H1Bs. I'll add my $0.02: a lot of people I know are in IT or engineering, and all of 'em are doing good to great careerwise.
- boot20, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2The problem is that H1Bs are eating entry level jobs that college grads used to get. Now try to get an entry level IT or programming job....you can't. If you are established, you are pretty well set, but if you aren't you are screwed.
- graj0120, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Did you know -
Last year (2006) there was a deficit in NJ Unemployment Insurance funds collected that ran in hundreds of millions of dollars.
FACT : Employee on H1 needs to be working throughout the time they are in the country.
FACT : Employee on H1 does not get Unemployment Insurance benefit
FACT : Employees on H1 are by law contributing to Unemployment with every paycheck.
This means H1 employee is selflessly contributing to the funding to pay the so called "Displaced Worker".
FACT : At the end of the year, the Dept of Labor takes this deficit and distributes it among all the companies and requests reimbursement from the employers based on the payroll. Who pays? All the employers in the state including the ones who have "Cut Costs" by so called "Displacing" workers.
Now consider this. If the company does not cut costs by whatever way possible and is not able to deliver the returns on investment, the share price falls - Americans suffer and we go in a recession.
If the company cuts costs the displaced workers suffer (Including H1 people who do get laid off and DO NOT get unemployment or for that matter jeopardize the entire career in the US).
Its a hard call to make and try to strike a balance. Don't you think?- VitriolAndAngst, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Blah, blah, blah....
Your "FACT" that American's would suffer because some company had less of a profit margin to lavish on their CEO.
- VitriolAndAngst, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Blah, blah, blah....
- LiterateWolf, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2Hail Ayn Rand! Libertarianism Forever!
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Hmmm. Best example of modern day Ayn Randism at work today is in Somalia and Iraq.
No, I don't think I'd like that.
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+2Hmmm. Best example of modern day Ayn Randism at work today is in Somalia and Iraq.
- VitriolAndAngst, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1I have friends who got here with H1B visas.
I can understand that it sometimes means we get smart people we otherwise wouldn't. Any country that gets more brains coming in than going out will be viable.
Our current education, health care, and scary politics are creating a real brain-drain.
I really don't know what is worse; low-balling our own people and outsourcing with the destruction of our education system... or not importing smart people to make up for the ones we don't create in schools.
Let's make all corporations hiring H1B visas, make up twice the difference in cost between the important help, and what they would pay for a citizen and that money would go to make college and "headstart" free for anyone who wanted it. Then they can solve the issue of not having enough competent workers.
There, I think I just solved the problem, and killed the excuses that corporations use to take advantage of having a business in the US while giving nothing back.- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1better to just subsidize good post secondary education.
Pretty much all other western countries do it. They do it for good reasons.
Taxing just .0007 of the workforce (companies will just pass on the costs to h1b employees) to pay for education doesn't amount to much money. Why not tax all corporate profits instead? They have a bigger tax base and pay much less taxes as it is. They get a benefit in the long run too in terms of a more educated work force. Hell. Haliburton netted a cool $b last year.
- bobzibub, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1better to just subsidize good post secondary education.
- unsolicited, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1H1-B promotes collusion.
- aringarosa, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1I cannot comment on H-1s in the IT industry, but have first-hand experience in the healthcare industry.
By the time our H-1 visa expires, companies we worked for would have paid $4,000- dollars to the state in fees ($1,000- to expedite the application), of which $2,000 goes to train US workers in our occupation.
We will personally have paid $3,480- in legal and state filing fees.
Had we wanted to apply for a Green Card, we would have to pay $5,066- in legal fees, $1,420- in filing fees to federal agencies, and $1,792- to healthcare companies for compulsory medical exams (which include HIV and TB testing).
We had to pay $339- ourselves to advertise the position for which we were applying in a newspaper. The advertisement had to be run on the company's website, and placed in prominent places within the company's buildings.
The company had to show that no US citizen could have been employed instead. All prospective applicants with which we had to compete had to be interviewed, and a report submitted to the Department of Labor to show why they could not have been appointed.
The company was forced to increase its wages for all employees, as the prevailing wage it was paying was less than the state minimum. So because an H-1 worker had to be paid the prevailing wage, all US workers in the same occupation in this company benefited.
The companies we worked for were located in rural areas, where no comparable workers could be found.
So, instead of our H-1 taking work away from US citizens, we worked where no US laborer wanted to work.
We directly contributed thousands of dollars to the salaries of state bureaucrats, medical employees, and legal personnel. US citizens in general benefited from our contributions to unemployment insurance, Medicare, federal, state and county taxes. Specifically, instead of depressing salaries in the company we worked for, our presence increases salaries paid to US workers. - aringarosa, on 10/10/2007, -1/+0I cannot comment on H-1s in the IT industry, but have first-hand experience in the health care industry.
By the time our H-1 visa expires, companies we worked for would have paid $4,000- dollars to the federal government in fees ($1,000- to expedite the application), of which $3,000 goes to train US workers in our occupation.
We will personally have paid $3,480- in legal and state filing fees.
Had we wanted to apply for a Green Card, we would have to pay $5,066- in legal fees, $1,420- in filing fees to federal agencies, and $1,792- to health care companies for compulsory medical exams (which include HIV and TB testing).
We had to pay $339- ourselves to advertise the position for which we were applying in a newspaper. The advertisement had to be run on the company's website, and placed in prominent places within the company's buildings.
The company had to show that no US citizen could have been employed instead. All prospective applicants with which we had to compete had to be interviewed, and a report submitted to the Department of Labor to show why they could not have been appointed.
The company was forced to increase its wages for all employees, as the prevailing wage it was paying was less than the state minimum. So because an H-1 worker had to be paid the prevailing wage, all US workers in the same occupation in this company benefited.
The companies we worked for were located in rural areas, where no comparable workers could be found.
So, instead of our H-1 taking work away from US citizens, we worked where no US laborer wanted to work.
We directly contributed thousands of dollars to the salaries of state bureaucrats, medical employees, and legal personnel. US citizens in general benefited from our contributions to unemployment insurance, Medicare, federal, state and county taxes. Specifically, instead of depressing salaries in the company we worked for, our presence increases salaries paid to US workers. - smacksaw, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1Live Better, Work Self-Employed Independent Contractor
Me=IT professional - thingylab, on 10/10/2007, -2/+1> As the number of H-1B visas (which essentially allow companies to hire
> foreign workers for much less than they'd have to pay American-based
> workers) has increased in the past decade
Plain *****.
1) I'd need evidence that the number of H1B has increased. I hear lots of companies complain about a decrease in the quota.
2) I know lots of people who work in the US on a H1B. They are well-educated and valuable employees. They would just never accept to be paid less than a american. - saturnx8, on 10/10/2007, -2/+2I have a great idea lets off-shore our government and political jobs with H1B workers! While we are at it lets off-shore our military and police too, since those are the only two areas not filling up with H1B workers. Brilliant idea.
As for all you people saying H1B gets lower pay. *****, I work with like 29 H1B people and they sure as hell make more than I do, and their skills just plain blow. I am the only American guy in a group of 30 people, we have 18 Indian, 7 chinese, 2 russian, 1 japanese, 1 greek and Me. 3 years ago we had 25 people and out of that was 16 american, 4 indian, 2 russian, 2 chinese and 1 japanese. You can't stop the beast!
Funny enough i applied for work in India and they said no way! I am sure it would be the same in china. So if they can't hire us, then why the hell should we accept there national corporate takeover. Sure enough most of them can't speak English well enough to make any project easy. Language should be the first thing, skills should be second when hiring foreign workers. I can promise you that more than 3/4 of my coworkers skills flat out blow, granted those are the cheap to fill positions, but it makes work take 4 times as long. SO is it really saving money?
Sorry protectionism is the way to go, union or not, i want what is rightly mine. maybe i should move to another country - kaiserh, on 10/10/2007, -1/+1The question I have about H-1B's is where they learned the required skills or received the experience these job postings require. Most computer science programs are theory based so its assumed they worked somewhere overseas, yet they do most of their recruiting on college campuses. Other than my first entry level job, every company has expected me to have experience in their IDE or toolset before I was hired.
- tmspecial, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1I feel sorry for all the US citizens who expect to get paid $150,000 to design crappy web pages. Stop whining and get educated. Smart people still make decent money in IT!
- b05q, on 10/10/2007, -0/+1how come when people who work with their hands complain about immigrants (who will accept lower wages) taking their jobs it's racist/xenophobic, but when it's educated people who work with their brains (i fall into this group) it's not?
- eataloser, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0http://eataloser.blogspot.com/2007/08/tooth-fairy-can-*****-off-and-stop.html
seriously check this out, its so funny - computerguy9355, on 11/19/2007, -0/+0blah blah
Digg is coming to a city (and computer) near you! Check out all the details on our 
© Digg Inc. 2008 —
Content posted by