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150 Comments
- garryw, on 10/10/2007, -3/+24People complain about the lack of interest in math and science in our schools. No kidding, it doesn't pay well anymore. High school kids are smarter than they dress.
Kill the H1B and lack of supply will drive up salaries and people will start to be interested again. - gclef, on 10/10/2007, -5/+25Many tech folks don't want a union. I certainly don't want one. Unions reward longevity over skill: you will never get promoted faster than the guy who's been there longer, even if you're better than he is, in a union shop. That's not okay...if I'm doing better work than some other guy, I expect to be rewarded and promoted accordingly. That won't happen in a union shop.
- lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -6/+25Well, Duh... why would any smart American kid waste their time and money only to get undercut by cheap foreign labor... The IT industry is dead in America... it's gone the way of manufacturing... I mean it's bad enough they shipped off all our jobs overseas, they have to destroy the few remaining jobs at home, too?
- crazydiode, on 10/10/2007, -10/+29I have been on H1-B for quite some time now and AFAIK first preference is always given to permanent residents. With the increase in H1 fees, most companies prefer to hire GC or citizens. And a majority of them state that in their ad that H1's need not apply. But the fact remains that people of H1 are mostly exploited by consultancies.
- anks329, on 10/10/2007, -2/+20The H-1B visa doesn't just apply to IT professionals. Any company that wants to hire a foreign worker uses the H-1B.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -2/+17There is a firm that teaches companies how not to hire Americans, and only hire H-1b visa holders. I can't find the link I wanted but this video talks about the company:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA - drlha, on 10/10/2007, -1/+16If the government did their job and actually enforced the "prevailing wage" laws in a meaningful way with H-1B applicants, then the issue of H-1Bs being low paid wouldn't be an issue. As usually, the laws are fine, but the implementation is *****.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -2/+16How not to hire an American:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zs8m3MzRw4&mode=related&search= - Smoot, on 10/10/2007, -4/+17"If the IT industry were unionized, the H-1B visa wouldn't exist."
Right, the industry would simply move to India or Eastern Europe. - AriaStar, on 10/10/2007, -7/+18I work at a company with many workers on H1-B visas. My own boyfriend, who also works here, is fro a foreign country as well. What he told me is that companies will often lists jobs on their sites without the intention of actually filling them with an American worker just to "show" that they are making the attempt. I go back and forth on this. I mean, hiring Americans at American salaries would drive a lot of prices up. So it's either jobs for Americans or lower prices. One of the other. Take your pick.
- superman970, on 10/10/2007, -0/+10Just one comment: you get what you pay for.
- flaterates, on 10/10/2007, -0/+9And now the argument is being heard in the hallways in the nation's capitol. Lawmakers are deciding how to change the visa program, how to lock down its many loopholes and how to ensure that American technology workers don't get pushed out of their career paths.
Wrong!! They're going to do everything possible to ensure that Americans are pushed out of their career paths. Foreign workers sill work for less, and Democrat and Republican alike work for the bucks. They will absolutely do everything possible to aid big business. - inactive, on 10/10/2007, -3/+12Almost every person in America has had to deal with an IT guy (or tech support) who could not properly speak English, and it only compounded the problem. If these companies were to see how important it is that the employees are native speakers, this problem wouldn't be so drastic. If you pay less, you are going to get less- there is always a cost.
- atdigg, on 10/10/2007, -8/+16And still most of the people complain about Mexicans and how they take the street cleaning jobs away from the Americans...
- cmburns69, on 10/10/2007, -2/+9I've seen this too. At a previous company, a worker was being sponsored for a green card. The company had to prove that it would be a hardship to replace him with a citizen, so they asked him to provide a job description which only he could fill (which was then used as proof that he was necessary). I give this as an anecdote of the corruption that exists in the system.
- joebob, on 10/10/2007, -2/+9So with that line of thinking, we can solve healthcare by replacing all medical professionals with imports from Cuba and pay them 1/4 as much.
Please consider that line of thinking in more detail, or... well any detail. - enzomatrixx2, on 10/10/2007, -3/+10you just don't get it, do you? everytime you protect an industry, you hike up prices. she's right about the logic. yes, it is that simple. guess what, the country has more than just YOU as one person. because protectionism only protects the intended industry, and screw everybody else, which is about 90% of the population. you give this person THAT particular job, you pay more. you give him a job that pays slightly less, then prices go down, so it wouldn't matter that he's getting paid slightly less anyway. demand and supply, get it? we don't import things because we can't make them. it's because it's cheaper to import them. we can spend our time making something else that's more worthwhile, then export them. same thing with jobs.
- VitriolAndAngst, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I pick Higher prices...
... of course, it's the market that decides prices -- so it would mean better jobs for Americans at the sacrifice of a few CEOs going without the $10 Million per year salary.
Call me crazy, but I'll go for what is good for our economy and most people. I don't think executives ***** gold. Otherwise all these Multinational companies would be showing profits -- oh yeah, the get tax breaks, pay more for things and funnel the profits to tax havens -- that's how GM can go in the red year over year. - sljepi, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6I agree. H1B is a pact with a devil if you work for a commercial company.On the other hand, working for a large research university on H1B has it perks.
- MariusVW, on 10/10/2007, -0/+61) There is a limit to the number of H1-B visas.
2) These foreigners work their fingers to the bone under a company that underpays them for huge profit. (This profit goes back to the American public)
3) The costs to obtain and maintain visas are mostly paid with foreign currency... these guys are under immense pressure to 'make it' to try and break even... where most of our native American workers are complacent and don't care if they fail (they can't get deported etc.)
4) These foreigners are generally successful and thus add to the economy in general and create work. They bring money *into* the country. America's status as a 'place to be' is what's keeping the economy strong IMHO. (That... and oil)
Compare the hate toward H1B holders who have to do everything through expensive legal channels with the disinterest regarding illegal Mexican influx.
And don't talk to me about foreign IT people who can't speak English...
(I'm a holder of a L1 visa and I may be able to break even in about a year.) - garryw, on 10/10/2007, -0/+6Being a nurse. Sure you have to collect urine but it pays much better than tech jobs. My sister just finished nursing school and she's making 80K. No *****. She says the shortage is huge.
- patleeman, on 10/10/2007, -1/+7Everyone loves to blame the workers who try to come over and take less money. But has anyone actually stopped and blamed the AMERICAN COMPANIES for hiring these people? These people are just after the bottom line, and the people they hiring are catching ***** because they want to make a living just like everyone else. So get off your asses and stop blaming the easy target and actually look at who is the real culprit. YOUR AMERICAN COMPANIES who are giving your jobs away to people who will take less money.
- LiterateWolf, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Idiot. Low prices won't matter if you can't afford housing, food, fuel, transportation, clothing, and healthcare. Free trade done wonders for Mexico with 2/3 of the population living in poverty. Economics is bunk "science" at best and religion at worst.
- superman970, on 10/10/2007, -2/+7If you have less than 5-7 years of experience in software development, you will find it tough to get started in a career in IT. It's kind of like choosing a career in architecture - you might have start out swinging a hammer in the beginning, at which point you'll be competing with with a lot of "foreign workers". If you can get enough experience under your belt, you'll be able to leave them behind, because from what I've seen, that's as far as their skill set can take them.
- bubbadoo989, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5Umm, yes, but quality is not JOB 1 in the US today. Keeping the CEO in the style he/she has become accustomed is JOB 1.
- Gzero, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6I read that as un-ionized..
- Homunculiheaded, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5I think we also need to define 'IT', because here in Cambridge, MA I see tons of employers fighting to really get and keep talented CS people. I see no shortage in demand for talented software engineers, and computer scientists. Even outside of hi-tech research really solid programmers and developers still seem to be in pretty high demand. Hell even systems annalists seem to be busy and growing in this area. If IT is dead, I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing.
- obelixdigg, on 10/10/2007, -7/+12What BS. Does anyone really have a count of how many jobs have actually been created by people who came to US in employment based visas?
At the top of my head:
1) Sun Microsystems
2) Exodus
3) Linksys
and a zillion other startups.
Before any wise ass tells me the founders had a green card or a US citizenship when they started the company:
The ONLY way you can get a Green Card [and thereby a US citizenship] is through some form of employment based visa. It has to be H1B or L1. Most of us came here to study. After we graduate here with a huge loan, what do you want us to do? We get a stupid H1B visa and slave till we get a GC.
The other side of H1B is how consulting companies use that to shift jobs outside the US. That is a different issue and has to be handled differently. Blaming H1B visas for job loss is stupid. - bigjimslade, on 10/10/2007, -1/+6Yes, look at the great things unions have done to the auto and steel industries. The best cars made in the US are made by non-union employees. Unions are going away, no doubt about it. The AFL/CIO knows this. They have little to no use anymore. They were created in an environment that didn't need to compete internationally.
I like being rewarded for performance - not for longevity. There's nothing - NOTHING - any union can do about outsourcing...except speed it up.
"Tech workers who don't want a union are stupid." Tech workers who belong to a union are closer to being laid off than tech workers that aren't in a union.
You're a dinosaur. - bubbadoo989, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5*****! I work on Wall St., where whole floors of developers have become h1b... they have replaced much higher compensated individuals. Certainly, there job postings that specify US Citizens or green card holders, but look carefully, these spots require you know C++, smalltalk, java, hibernate, oracle, db2 , sybase... well you get the idea... the laundry list of skills is just way too long to fill with a real person... hence the shortage of skilled labor.
H1b visa holders may not be treated well, but think about the higher priced citizen you're replacing, who has no job... and no prospects. - useful, on 10/10/2007, -0/+5To get a H1B visa you have to prove that no citizen is as qualified as the applicant. The problem with this is that most companies advertise jobs with the intention of disqualifying all citizens. Thats why you see jobs that want 4 years of working experience with a 4 year degree for 12/hour.
- jkays, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4http://www.nfap.com/pdf/0507h1Bstudy.pdf
Proportion and Education Level of H-1Bs.
New H-1B professionals accounted for only 0.07 percent of the U.S. labor force in 2006. Contrary to assertions that H-1B visa holders are not highly skilled, official data show 57 percent of recent new H-1B professionals earned a master’s degree or higher, according to the Department of Homeland Security. When companies recruit, often on college campuses, they find qualified Americans and many foreign nationals. In 2005, U.S. universities awarded 55 percent of Masters degrees and 67 percent of PhDs in electrical engineering to foreign nationals, according to the American Association of Engineering Societies.
Impact on U.S. Professionals.
There is little evidence native information technology (IT) workers are harmed by the entry of H-1B professionals. A study by Madeline Zavodny, a research economist at the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, concluded, “None of the results suggest that an influx of H-1Bs . . . lower contemporaneous average earnings. Indeed, many of the results indicate a positive, statistically significant relationship.” This would mean H-1B employment is actually associated with better job conditions for natives because H-1B professionals are complementary to native professionals.
San Francisco Chronicle
April 26, 2006
The $2,000 fee for the H1B visa is spent on science and math education and training. A survey by the National Foundation for American Policy, a nonprofit research group, found that employers have paid more than $1 billion in H1B visa fees since 1999. The fees have funded more than 40,000 scholarships and grants for U.S. students in science and math, and science programs for 75,000 middle and high school students, and provided training for 55,000 U.S. workers and teachers, the study found.
http://www.nfap.com/researchactivities/articles/NFAPPolicyBriefH1BProfessionalsAndWages0306.pdf
U.S. companies hire and recruit globally. In some cases, this means hiring foreign-born individuals on
H-1B temporary visas, many times off U.S. college campuses as part of the normal recruitment process.
In essence, critics assert the only reason a U.S. employer would ever hire someone on an H-1B visa is
because he or she will work cheaper than Americans, implying that only people born in the United States
possess desirable skills. The story that a veritable conspiracy exists in America to hire foreign-born
professionals so they can work cheaply is unsupported by the evidence. Moreover, it runs contrary to
common sense and any serious analysis of how the U.S. labor market functions. - ryanobjc, on 10/10/2007, -3/+7The article is pure garbage. The author is mis-informed to a massive degree. The second paragraph starts with the lie:
"[..] H1-B visas (which essentially allow companies to hire foreign workers for much less than they'd have to pay American-based workers)"
Pure crap. Many companies use H1-B to fill the need for talent, and pay at market rates. The H1-B program requires companies to submit the wage they are paying their employees. If this is in fact less, we have an enforcement issue, not a legal issue.
To broadly paint all H1-B workers as demolishing the US IT industry is not very nice or accurate. I know plenty of H1-B employees who make significant contributions to their employers. - shopkinson, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4This article is very poorly written. H1-B visas are not the problem with respect to the declining availability to entry IT positions in America. The problem is overseas labor. H1-B visas at least allow foreign workers to spend the American money they earn in America and in turn helps drive the economy. Overseas labor is now used by most mid to large size companies for which H1-B visa restrictions would have no impact on. If anything the restriction of H1-B visas would create an increase in overseas labor reducing the amount of American earned wages being spent in America.
- blacklist, on 10/10/2007, -2/+6Here is the link I was looking for, warning if your an American worker it might piss you off.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU&mode=related&search= - prammy, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4People are upset because what they assumed would be a 200K per year job is not. Though I have seen many qualified applicants whether they be on a H1B or GC/Citizen get what they ask for. Most of the time its all about references.
At my last employer we had a LOT of H1Bs and many of them DID make more money than some of the citizens (within same job range) specifically because of their skills and references. - douggmc, on 10/10/2007, -8/+12Read your 3rd to the last sentence a few times .... then tell me you aren't a retard with that type of logic.
Here's a clue: Would it matter to you how low of a price your hamburger was, if you didn't have a job? - encognito, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4The reasons why I barely got into and rapidly got out of IT:
1) Dot-com bust of 2001
2) High education and experience requirements which have to be continuously updated
3) Low salary for average to above average workers
When a library clerk with a high school diploma can pull $50K with excellent benefits, why should a student struggle to get a master's degree in EE to make the same amount of scratch? And this is five years after the boom! You have to be a frigging STAR to crack six figures in tech or go into management and if you do that you might as well get your MBA instead of your MS or PhD in something technical. Personally, I regulated tech to hobby status and focused on real estate. I still see divorced mothers of two with a high school degree making six figures in real estate. And that's just agent/appraisal level, not broker, finance or investments. Just my humble observations. - Vicissidude, on 10/10/2007, -0/+4What are we worried about? This is the first time in SIX YEARS that salaries have actually gone up, some FOUR years after the recession supposedly ended. Right now, I'm fairly secure in my job, but it wasn't that long ago when I trained my Indian replacement and then got a boot in my ass. I'm still afraid of the time when I hit 40, since then I'll be considered old, over the hill, and outdated and likely replaced by someone 25, fresh out of college, and cheaper.
Things are good now, but don't expect them to stay that way. Senators are already pushing to increase the number of H1-Bs again. They had an amendment attached to the Immigration bill which would have done that. Once the H1-B increase actually passes, expect the ***** to hit the fan. - graj0120, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Did you know -
Last year (2006) there was a deficit in NJ Unemployment Insurance funds collected that ran in hundreds of millions of dollars.
FACT : Employee on H1 needs to be working throughout the time they are in the country.
FACT : Employee on H1 does not get Unemployment Insurance benefit
FACT : Employees on H1 are by law contributing to Unemployment with every paycheck.
This means H1 employee is selflessly contributing to the funding to pay the so called "Displaced Worker".
FACT : At the end of the year, the Dept of Labor takes this deficit and distributes it among all the companies and requests reimbursement from the employers based on the payroll. Who pays? All the employers in the state including the ones who have "Cut Costs" by so called "Displacing" workers.
Now consider this. If the company does not cut costs by whatever way possible and is not able to deliver the returns on investment, the share price falls - Americans suffer and we go in a recession.
If the company cuts costs the displaced workers suffer (Including H1 people who do get laid off and DO NOT get unemployment or for that matter jeopardize the entire career in the US).
Its a hard call to make and try to strike a balance. Don't you think? - obelixdigg, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Total BS. My H1B salary has NEVER been below market rate. My last labor certification tells me that the minimum wage for a software engineer in Santa Clara County is 108k. You have to be paid at least 108k to be a software engineer in Santa Clara county. My pay is well above that range [and in line with market rates].
One of the biggest urban legends is that H1Bs are paid very low market wages. Personally, it is not true.
This is a great country. It is very welcoming to immigrants. H1B workers like me play by the rule to live our American dream. You really need to figure out the facts before you lay blame on us. - ishwarchand, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4Hey, it is not that they dont speak proper english. they can speak english pretty well, its the accent which causes a problem. and trust me, just like you dont understand theirs, they sometimes have no idea what the hell you are saying because they cant understand your accent. it is the companies outsourcing who are at fault on that. big BPOs in India actually train their employees to talk with an americanized accent, and if you talk with them, you wont have a problem. it is the smaller firms who cut costs by not training their employees and the entire outsourcing firms get a bad name.
- delhirocks, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3A lot of the US IT jobs are for developing software and services which are used all over the world. 96% of the processors used in Indian computer market are made my Intel and AMD. Designing and R&D of these processors happen in US. This creates a lot of American jobs, maybe 15-20% of these jobs are held by foreigners (H1B). This is an example of just one industry, We can add air crafts, operating systems, consumer electronics, beverages, fast food and scores of other industries to this discussion. This is globalization, and trust me when I say it, the biggest beneficiary of it is US and US citizens
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4On one end people espouse the benefits of capitalism (when talking about raising minimum wage, about supply and demand, people paying what the work is worth), then complain when they have to compete with lower priced workers themselves. I really don't get it. When its about minimum wage being discussed, noone wants to give more money to the poor because their burgers go up 1 cent. When it comes to their $100/hour job being done by someone else for $95, they complain about low wages.
And wow, blaming all the economic downturn on H1Bs. Yep, its all their fault. They steal your wages while punching babies. - ryanobjc, on 10/10/2007, -1/+4You clearly don't know anything about the green card process if this is your evidence of corruption.
Firstly, Green Cards are not H1-Bs. The burden to obtain a Green Card is very high. The total cost is about $10,000 or more. This includes lawyer fees, filing fees, all sorts of clerical work necessary. Sponsoring someone for a Green Card is not something a company does lightly or does to reduce costs.
Secondly, the process does not work as you describe. The company provides a job description which they then POST and solicit resumes. The Department of Labour who handles this process (called Labour Cert, PERM, etc) audits and monitors to ensure the job descriptions are reasonable and expected for the job title (which has to match the DOL database of job titles). Only once you run a hiring campaign to find candidates (perhaps you might hire some and still need more) and fail then can you get DOL certified and then move onto getting a Green Card (multi-year wait).
The H1-B process does not resemble this at all. There is a much lower burden of proof necessary.
At the companies me and my friends have worked at, none of them lowballed H1-B salaries. H1-Bs were paid what everyone else was paid.
My understanding is a large number of the H1-B visas go to outsourced consulting companies to bring their indian staff to the US for 4 months to get trained by US personelle. During this period, they get paid prevailing wage, but are expected to work their asses off. - lordmike, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Microsoft has been planning on opening that office years ago, they just tried to spin it as an H1-B thing recently, so they could get some low-paid help... no wonder their products are crap...
- inactive, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3Its true. I used to be a computer science major but after really analyzing the market I decided to switch my major over to accounting. Was a very easy transition since most of the skills used in CS are some what still applicable to accounting. Also I can easily tell you that accounting is a much more enjoyable profession. CS is still fun but I wouldn't want to be writing code for more than 4-5 hours a day.
- jkays, on 10/10/2007, -0/+3If you lack the skills don't clasp at straws in the air trying to blame others for your woes. Improve your skills and talent and companies will beg to hire you. Its amazing how many people can't afford to take responsibility for their own short comings. H1-B's are 0.07% of the US workforce, find another scapegoat...
- prammy, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3Right. It is not true that H1Bs are hired just for the low wages. I went from F1 -> H1B -> Green card and outside of my first job (while as an F1 with a work authorization card) I was able to negotiate my wages pretty well. Then again I knew the current wage structure.
True there are companies who do exploit H1Bs and leaving a crappy job to get a new one under H1B is quite possibly the most painful thing other than putting a 1000lb block on your balls. - mbondr, on 10/10/2007, -1/+3This makes no sense. Automation took away the street sweeping jobs and I don't hear anyone saying that Mexicans are taking away our jobs. Nobody wants to do the jobs they do. What I hear is that they use our precious services like schools and clinics.
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