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See the original image at bits.blogs.nytimes.com

The High-Tech Job Capital Is…The Big Apple?

bits.blogs.nytimes.com — If it ’s money you’re after, the Valley is the best place to find the highest-paying high-tech jobs, with salaries averaging $144,800. Seattle, number five on the salary list, pays an average of $96,197, while New York–not exactly the cheapest place to live–pays its high-tech workers $91,451.

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  • conradsalvador, on 06/24/2008, -1/+7Stupid me moved from NYC to one of the lowest paying places in the US (Houston, TX).
    • ssfwestlife, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Really!? And I've been thinking of moving to Houston.
      • conradsalvador, on 06/25/2008, -0/+2If your in the high-tech field go to Austin. They pay better over there.
        • Elranzer, on 06/25/2008, -0/+2Austin is just plain better overall than Houston, anyway.
    • villainousT, on 06/24/2008, -2/+12Why the heck would you leave NYC for Houston of all the god awful places?

      I'm actually just about to move from NYC back to Austin. Gotta head back to school :(
    • wjackson, on 06/24/2008, -1/+21But the cost of living in Houston is pennies compared to NYC.
      • Rahodeb, on 06/24/2008, -1/+11You get what you pay for...
        • Ebulating, on 06/25/2008, -3/+2Well, as seeing that, adjusted for the massively lower cost of living in Houston, most jobs pay about twice, or MORE, in Houston as compared to NYC, I'm really not sure that you do.
      • conradsalvador, on 06/25/2008, -0/+2True, but that is also what you make for high-tech jobs here.
    • Ch33t0, on 06/24/2008, -1/+6I know NYC very well. I have spent a good amount of time up there due to my job as an IT related employee. I declined moving to NYC from Houston because at least here I can own my home with a pool, have no state tax, own a car, park it free and not have to worry about the freaking tourist and hipsters that clog the damn streets when im in a rush to work or grabbing a pint. Not to mention how much my savings account grows living in H-Town. Yeah there are better places to live but Houston has taken care of me and I love it for that. If you moved here and are coming out behind your doing it wrong. The cake is NOT a lie. :)
    • Temo1, on 06/24/2008, -1/+5I wouldn't trade NYC for the world, I love it here... but no income tax in Texas takes some of the bite out of the deal.
      • Ch33t0, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2Yeah well I admit I love that place too. I am a much better dresser after being there and its nice to take my girl with me or a friend and show them around and actually know where I am going :) But after living in a "everything is bigger in Texas" mindset its hard to switch to a shoebox as my pad.
    • SugarCoatedSalt, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1I'm so glad I live in NYC, most of the times anyway. :P
    • frisk415, on 06/25/2008, -0/+3Dude. New York-->Houston. wtf?
    • seandaly, on 06/25/2008, -0/+3Houston's biggest problem is that it is at present, unfortunately situated in Texas.

      I vote we give Texas (we'll keep Austin) and the rest of the fundy states their own country. Most of them never wanted to be part of the union anyway.
      • zeabu, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Move nuclear weapons before you do so.
        • seandaly, on 06/26/2008, -1/+1Excellent point!

          (note to self: Add a task to remove all Nucular weapons from the scary southen states to your "let's get rid of the Fundy's" plan)
    • solid12345, on 06/25/2008, -0/+2Stupid you? My best friend left his $14/hr job with just a high school degree from Oklahoma to move to NYC with his girlfriend so she can apply for an internship at MTV and get her "dream job" (which I can tell you judging by her grades she will never get it)

      a month later, he says he hates it, the people in NYC are rude, and he cannot find a decent paying job without a degree.

      Yeah we may not have all the glitz and glamour in the midwest and do have church fundies but if you want to make a nice life here without an education you have that opportunity.
  • GidsR, on 06/24/2008, -6/+1I'm sure London could give it a run for it's money!
  • theNazz, on 06/24/2008, -7/+33Good lucking finding a place to live in NYC on $96,451 a year...
    • sockpuppets, on 06/24/2008, -2/+20If anyone in the NY puppet community has space in their sock drawer for me and my laptop let me know.
    • krahzee, on 06/24/2008, -1/+16In Manhattan, no. In one of the boroughs you can easily find a place assuming you don´t mind a subway ride to work.
    • MosX, on 06/24/2008, -0/+6Manhattan really isn't that expensive if you know where to look.
      • rockchops, on 06/24/2008, -1/+4The obituaries
      • slayerab, on 06/24/2008, -2/+5The Bronx?
      • phoomp, on 06/24/2008, -1/+4Broom closets
      • tnoy, on 06/24/2008, -1/+4Those places are referred to as "crack dens."
      • Jay730, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2True. my friend lives on the upper east side off of york street.. he pays $1,000 for a small 2 bedroom apt..... want more bang for you buck check out Brooklyn, Queens or Paulus Hook in NJ City (5 min ride on the path train into lower Manhattan)
      • Elranzer, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Chinatown (sorry to give it away)
    • Temo1, on 06/24/2008, -0/+111K a month gets you a decent just-out-of-college type place in Manhattan. Trust me, I've looked.
    • honthraj, on 06/24/2008, -1/+3I have lived in Manhattan for 20 years. For the first ten years, my rent was $325.00/mth.

      The next five years, it was $475.00/mth.

      For the last 5 years, I was forced to move due to foundation work being done in the building - rent went to $950/mth, but considering moving to a cheaper place - yes, still in Manhattan.

      • SugarCoatedSalt, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1I pay 1500 a month for a four bedroom apartment, and that's cheap really.
    • lostarchitect, on 06/24/2008, -0/+17NYC's not cheap, I live here. But $96k is waaaaaayyyyy more than enough to get yourself a decent place, even in Manhattan. I don't know anyone here my age (30) who makes that much, and they all have apartments, some of them quite nice.
    • salomejones, on 06/24/2008, -1/+9*****. I've lived in Manhattan for most of my life (and Brooklyn before that). Yes, rent in Manhattan is *generally* horrible, I'd say the average one bedroom is hanging around just over 3,000 a month--but it still varies. I have friends in Hell's Kitchen paying 2400 for a two bedroom, and friends in Gramercy Park paying 5K for a one bedroom. It depends on what you're willing to put up with, but 96K is fine to live on here---it's far more than enough.

      Don't believe the hype, and also, DON'T MOVE TO NYC. WE'RE FULL AND I CAN'T TAKE ONE MORE YUPPY ***** DECIDING TO BREED ALL OVER MY NEIGHBORHOOD.

      Thanks in advance. :)
      • capnarrr, on 06/24/2008, -4/+2Will do, so long as you don't come to LA and spread your pompous east coast BS.
      • frisk415, on 06/25/2008, -2/+2I'm coming whether you like it or not. Either New York or Chicago. However I'm from San Francisco and so I do share your sentiments.
        • salomejones, on 06/25/2008, -1/+4You and your hubris are welcome in my great city. Be careful of Chicago; you stand a good chance of making people cry with that kind of attitude.
        • Elranzer, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1^^ These kinda people are why I want to move to Oregon.
  • blackinthmiddle, on 06/24/2008, -0/+8I live in NYC and while I make more than what this article says is the average, I'm surprised the average is that high. Good to see. I do feel MUCH better than I did in '01 when I was hopping like mad from one consulting gig to another, just trying to find consistent work. During that stretch of time, I seriously considered switching professions and wondered why I got a degree in mechanical engineering in the first place.

    Although tech degrees allow you to get jobs in many different professions, I'm not sure if I would steer anyone in that field. If companies decide to ship my job overseas again, I'll be once again competing against people who make a tenth of what I make, which I obviously can't do. Unfortunately, however, there are very few jobs that can't be outsourced nowadays. Nurses, Teachers, Electricians, Plumbers, Firefighters, Policemen, Construction Workers...I miss anything. I was reading an article that mentioned that some insurance companies were even considering outsourcing certain type of medical procedures, so doctors may not be immune.
    • Alenzia, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5Yeah, I've heard about people getting surgeries in other countries to pay less... wouldn't be surprised if insurance companies endorsed it more.
      • 2clone, on 06/24/2008, -1/+1You mean Canada, unless you want to risk it in Mexico.
        • blackinthmiddle, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3The article I read mentioned India. It said that the success rate for most bypass heart operations is just as good there as it is in the US for a tenth of the price.
  • SoopaflySAM, on 06/24/2008, -7/+1818 213 310
  • salazarmark, on 06/24/2008, -7/+4*sigh* Another article that has a "Reality Distortion Field".
  • Suzilla, on 06/24/2008, -3/+9The dirty little secret about why NYC tech salaries are lower is the higher percentage of immigrant (H1B visa) workers, who earn, on average 65% of what their US citizen counterparts earn in the same job. When you account for this, it puts Silicon Valley and NYC in roughly the same ballpark. Some (most? all?) companies in NYC actually have these "discount" rates codified in their HR hiring practices documentation. Moreover, these workers generally must remain with the company that has hired/sponsored them until and unless they are granted a green card. This can take years and some companies are less than "helpful" when it comes to helping to expedite that process.
    • blackinthmiddle, on 06/24/2008, -0/+8I'm not sure how much that's happening today, but I saw it about ten years ago when I was consulting for a reinsurance company in westchester. Two of the hardest workers on my team were working for a consulting firm based in Chicago. They were from India and using H1 visas. I remember one day they asked me for a ride back to their hotel. I agreed, but asked, "Where's your ride?" They informed me that they didn't have a ride. I was shocked. "Wait a minute! Your boss sent you to another state. How does he want you to get to and from work every day?" They told me that their boss gave them no per diem and they were supposed to pay for everything with their salary! They also told me they were only making $35K a year!!! I felt bad for them, but I had my own responsibilities.
    • digjam, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Well the truth is a little distorted in both the case above. I agree with blackinthmiddle, that was the case 10yrs ago, but things have changed a lot nowadays. The situation right now is that the same consultants make more, believe it or not.

      Reg what suzilla said, I agree H1B workers stay with the company that sponsored them, but thats not a necessity. IF you apply for a GC then you have to stay with the company till it gets approved, not if they sponsor your H1B. And reg what you say that most of these immigrants make less than avg american makes, I seriously dont understand the problem. Trust me, I am on H1, and I can tell you, this is a false notion created by ppl who want you to believe that. Thats definitely not the case.
    • salomejones, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3They aren't lower, they're higher. Welcome to the city where unix sysadmins start at 80k if they have a clue at all.
    • defaria, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2HUH?!? You're trying to tell me that NYC is the only place with H1B carrying immigrants?!? Wake up and get out of NYC once in a while! I'd say there are probably more H1B carrying immigrants in Silicon Valley per capita than NYC anyway - cept maybe in cab drivers!
    • seandaly, on 06/25/2008, -0/+5Every time I work with our enterprise customers in NY, there is a trend.

      60% of their help desk / sysadmin staff is of Latino decent, but not on a visa.
      50% of their System Engineers and Administrators are either from China or India, on H1B or are cheating the system by running it through Canada.
      75% of their programming staff are on H1B's. (see above)
      90% of IT management are plain old white guys.

      So, it seems to me that if you're an IT manager, and you can get 3 qualified H1B or immigrant experts for the cost of 2 (or less), you're either potentially increasing output or saving money, securing your future.

      I'll tell you this... If I get another ***** call from another damned India-based, / US company where Sangram Valishwaly is looking for a Senior Unix Engineer that also with experience in SAN storage, Windows 2008, MS Exchange, jaguar hunting and expert Suis Chef for $22 per hour if I'm willing to relocate to King of Prussia, PA or Detroit, I'm going to lose my ***** mind! These shops succeed by undercutting the other IT placement firms by 10 - 20% on average rates in the big cities ($75 per hour vs. competition's $90), and then just take the blitzkrieg approach and if they can't place on of the thousands of their HlB brethren, they use their practically free Indian Call Centre to call 200,000 potential applicants for each position, saving additional money by using state law contractor loopholes that negate them from having to pay into unemployment insurance, health insurance or any other benefit programs. The northeast is loaded with these *****-holes.

      I wouldn't mind so much if they were just providing cheaper local IT labor by cutting overhead, but when you're undercutting the local companies by exploiting your cheap offshore resources, using cheap H1B contractors and exploiting the local unemployed talent (when all that comes across unemployed for 5 months - Joe IT worker's desk is calls from these shops), they're literally cheapening the entire IT landscape.

      I'm glad I've been lucky enough to work for the exact opposite for the past 3 1/2 years.

      Or, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about.
      • salomejones, on 06/25/2008, -1/+1You're right, you don't know what you're talking about. This is New York Mother ***** City, and it is full of people from everywhere; and people from everywhere permeate every industry in this city, including tech.

        If you don't like it, go be a carrot farmer.
        • seandaly, on 06/27/2008, -0/+1I don't care where people are from! It's not just "New York Mother ***** City", it's America, we're supposed to be the melting pot of the world!

          I DO care when foreign-based companies open up US offices and drive all revenue back to thier foreign base by exploiting the fact that they can hire four of thier four tech resources and expect them to work 80 hours a week, all for less than the cost of one "Joe Tech Worker" in NY. It's a ***** sham!

          How is it OK for a foreign company to staff it's US offices with ultra-cheap native H1B recruiters, cheapen the entire industry by flooding it with cheap (and also, but not always, very underqualified) workers, while taking all of the revenue back outside the US? *****, I understand the concept of a global economy, but it has to work both ways! If US companies are shelling out tons of $$$ for contractors, consultants or other workers, at least some of that money needs to stay in the local or US economy to be cycled back through, ultimately ending up back as profit for the US company. If you divert too much from that cycle, eventually, some point in the cycle starves and the cycle dies.

          Maybe I should become a Carrot farmer... At least some of the farming industry still believes in the concept of a local economy.
        • salomejones, on 06/27/2008, -1/+1We in NYC do not consider ourselves to be part of your ***** up country, but thanks.
  • frostbyt, on 06/24/2008, -1/+14Less IT people = Higher demand. The market will keep pushing our IT salaries above and beyond the average worker.

    High demand = More money.

    *Cha Ching*
    • Ryan166, on 06/24/2008, -2/+5India = More IT people

      More IT people = Less demand

      Less demand = Less money

      *Mom, can I move in for bit while I find another job?*
      • frostbyt, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Too bad people hate calling India. I have formed in house side business fixing computers on site. We are like geek (Joke squad) squad but we know what we are doing.
        • sodade, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Too bad most high tech firms have invested heavily in Indian resources.
  • leerayIG88, on 06/24/2008, -0/+10I wonder... is Sex and the City the real thing? Will a IT guy like me ever get laid? i really hope so.
  • MuskokasFinest, on 06/24/2008, -1/+5Population of Silicon Valley : 3 000 000 and 225 300 tech-jobs = 13 people for every tech job
    Population of NYC : 8 000 000 and 316 500 tech-jobs = 25 people for every tech job
    Even if you factor in that a lot of people in silicon valley are in the industry, I'd still place my luck on the valley.
    • dgaspard, on 06/24/2008, -4/+1New Orleans: 100 people with technical skill and 50 jobs = 2 jobs per person.
      • MuskokasFinest, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3you mean 2 people per job?
        quick! change while you still have a chance!
      • RomanThommassen, on 06/24/2008, -2/+1it's the other way around, buddy.
      • MtheoryX, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Holy math fail, Batman!
    • salomejones, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4What? Do you honestly believe that every one of those 25 people WANT a tech job? No. In NYC, the most sought after work is in finance, because despite the economy, that's always and only where the real money is.
      • mdude85, on 06/25/2008, -0/+4"finance, despite the economy, is always and only where the real money is."

        Yeah, tell that to the guys over at BearStearns!!

        finance, like law, is where you go in order to work really hard and make a comfortable salary of 200k/year so that you can buy a modest co-op on the UES and eat out 3 nights a week. But no payout working for Goldman Sachs or Citi is big enough to enable you to retire at 35 like selling your San Jose tech start-up to Google

    • Iztikeit, on 06/24/2008, -1/+0A higher percentage of people in SV would favor a tech job over the percentage of people in N.Y.C. wanting those same jobs.
    • mdude85, on 06/25/2008, -1/+0No, they are taking NY metro area population of 18 million, not NY city population of 8 million, so 56 people for every tech job not 25
  • Snap65, on 06/24/2008, -1/+2What if I don't like to work in Big Cities? Am I screwed?
  • Rudegar, on 06/24/2008, -6/+1??? dident steve jobs sue them into called it the big pear yet ? :P
  • chewitt, on 06/24/2008, -0/+9Wow, and New York City sells more beer than Munich, Germany - NYC must be the beer capital!

    Unless it's per capita, these statistics are useless.
    • scamper22, on 06/24/2008, -1/+0not to mention the kind of job.
      what is a high-tech job?

      somehow the valley is able to create Google.
      New York...sorry...I can't name a single New York based company. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure there are loads of web jobs, finance high-tech jobs, data center jobs...

      Heck, just for high-tech kicks, I'd take Austin anyday.

    • Iztikeit, on 06/24/2008, -3/+0Seattle > NYC
      The Valley > NYC

      Hell, Chicago > NYC
  • 9Digits, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1The point missed is that while people here in the valley make more, we're taxed to death. If there was ever a case for secession it'd be based here - for what we pay in taxes versus what we get, we're absolutely getting raped. So before you move here thinking that you'll somehow be able to walk away with tons of disposable income, realize that rents/mortgages, food, transportation, products and energy costs are utterly ridiculous here too - and that eats up most of the surplus.
  • mandarin, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Heh, if only 100k average was true....
  • JamesMatt, on 06/24/2008, -4/+2living in NYC and getting paid in sterling :o)
  • ontain, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5Average? I thought we all knew that salary statistics are supposed to use median since a CIO salary drastically increase the average enough to make it a meaningless statistic. also I'd bet that there are more CIO's in NYC than most other cities.
  • hollyminkowski, on 06/24/2008, -1/+391,000 in NYC seems kinda low.... you would almost have to sleep on the subway.
    • lostarchitect, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Very few people in NYC actually make that much. NYC is expensive, but many, many people get by on $30,000 and manage to do just fine.
      • Elranzer, on 06/25/2008, -1/+1They also all have 4 roommates in a one-bedroom apartment.
        • lostarchitect, on 06/25/2008, -0/+2I had 3 roommates when I first moved here (4 years ago), but we shared a 2000 sq ft loft in Brooklyn, each had our own room, and paid $800/month each. Not to mention the amazing view of the Manhattan and Brooklyn bridges. I made $38,000 at the time. You just have to LOOK. Jeeze. I can't believe I'm defending New York. I hate it here.
    • mdude85, on 06/25/2008, -1/+0I wouldn't quite say that "very few people" in NYC make 91,000, but even if you live in a $2000/month studio, you're still only paying 40% of your after-tax income to rent, which is not out of the ordinary for a living in a city

  • kenvsryu, on 06/24/2008, -5/+2East Coast > *
  • honthraj, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2I have worked in New York in IT for a long time, and I'm inclined to say that the average appears to be way overstated. If that's the average, most people I know are well below it.

    Just what do they define as "high-tech worker"? anyway. Has anyone seen this report? I don't have the cash right now to buy it myself.
  • Commodore69, on 06/24/2008, -3/+9Look, this article is nothing but another IT industry scam. They never mention who the AeA is and wisely so. The AeA is a lobbying group for IT companies. They go about crying and whining that they don't have enough workers to fill positions so they have to go abroad. This is a pile of *****. What they really want are more H1B visas so they can drive IT salaries down. I work for a fortune 500 and can tell you that the vast majority of these H1Bs are either on par or INFERIOR to American workers. The only reason these companies want them so bad is so they can pay them lower wages. They try to pass this partisan BS off as news. Nice try. You're all a bunch of ***** holsters.
  • diggerphelps, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2Also:
    Cost of living in the Bay Area > COL NYC
  • sodade, on 06/24/2008, -0/+1Or, better yet, get a telecommuting job with a Silicon Valley and live someplace cheap.
  • WomensUnderwear, on 06/24/2008, -0/+7Statistically, NYC has more rainfall than Seattle
  • MarkyBear, on 06/24/2008, -0/+2This is yet another article with statistics manipulated by the author to get his/her desired sensational result. It is bad writing.

    To compare any statistic in absolute numbers (as opposed to percentages) to metropolitan NYC is stupid and akin to comparing silicon chips to, well, apples. Metropolitan New York has a population of somewhere between 18 to 22 million (depending upon source). Hello, it's going to have more janitors too. Worse than that, all metro NYC was not compared with all metropolitan San Francisco (itself only 7.5 million) of which Silicon Valley is a subset; it looked at Silicon Valley only. The statistic Ignored Autodesk in San Rafael, Maxis and Pixar in Emeryville, Lucas and Macromedia and Wikipedia in San Francisco, among countless other firms. How stupid.

    Why not compare high tech jobs in the whole Bay Area to just Manhattan? The numbers would prove just as useless.
  • mdude85, on 06/25/2008, -0/+0It's pretty crazy that New York metro with a population of 18 million has only 20,000 more tech jobs than the next highest ranked metro of Washington DC, which has less than 6 million in population. That means there is almost 3 times as much density of tech jobs in DC than in NY -- everyone knows you don't go to NY if you are pursuing tech and this story confirms it
  • diggopolous, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Dugg down for a gopd article devolving into propoganda for the controversdial H1-B program
  • frostbyt, on 06/25/2008, -0/+1Too bad people still hate calling India. Oh btw those tech firms have given rise to your gas prices here. Now that China and India are getting more cars they use more fuel and raise the price of gas. Think about that next time you call "tech support"
  • laltman, on 06/26/2008, -0/+0Total numbers don't tell the story. It's about competition. And NY's tech jobs divided by population is fairly low on the scale.
  •  

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