What is Digg?125 Comments
- edenlover, on 10/12/2007, -6/+37It took a study to figure that if you pay someone $200 instead of $4000 a month for the same job you will get less quality work done?
- balls187, on 10/12/2007, -5/+32No one flipping burgers for minimum wage makes a decent living.
They may live better than people in poor countries, but it certainly isn't a decent living. Try living off of $5.15 an hour and see how well you can live.
Most Fastfood jobs offer no benefits, and no real long term skill training.
Of course you can say "well go back to school and get a better job." but that's much easier said than done. - DumbCommonHerd, on 10/12/2007, -5/+24I HATE it when I call customer service and I get someone on the other end, obviously from India or some other country with a poor understanding of english attempting to talk with me. This makes me think the company cares little about customer service and everything about it's own bottom line. therefore I will usually choose to do budsiness elsewhere from then on.
- NSMike, on 10/12/2007, -5/+21Umm... Duh?
Third World Country + Poorly Trained Techs + Barely capable English Speakers + Lost American Jobs = Pissed off American customers. - CorpT, on 10/12/2007, -5/+19http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm
- balls187, on 10/12/2007, -2/+15Right because when you have a competent person from a rich country like america, who speaks english very well, and he comes over and falls asleep on your couch, it's much better.
Ever been to Bestbuy?
Give Cingular a call, and talk to some genius in america and see how awesome of a job they do.
Try calling a customer support line for Newegg or any of the countless other online computer retailers. 9/10 times you get General Tso's on the phone.
Face it, customer service sucks period. In America, in India, in China. And the only people you can blame are the consumers for being stupid enough to continually spending money on companies that give crappy customer service.
Thus far only one company has consistently offered top notch customer service and that's been Crutchfield. - CorpT, on 10/12/2007, -16/+28Too bad we didn't get some government intervention to protect us. That would have worked so much better than the free market.
- buss, on 10/12/2007, -6/+16Oh no, the secret is out! I stayed in computer science/computer engineering because everyone else left! Don't come back now, or the high demand and pay will disappear before I graduate!
- joerao, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12...and Tony Bourdain probably got the ***** from eating a 10c meal. Regardless of how the quality of the cooking is, there are long term consequences of cutting costs....
- jasnmb, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11@balls187
I completed college while working full time. No I didn't have kids at the time, but yes it was still hard.
I was just trying to make the point that being poor shouldn't really be an excuse for not going to college. - balls187, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16@jasnb "Come on now, between grants and student loans just about anyone should be able to go to college."
1) I didn't know that college grants and student loans will help pay rent, and take care of your children.
2) Have you tried working fulltime and going to school full time?
3) How about taking care of a child while attending school.
I'm not saying it's not possible, but it's not as easy as you think.
Of course you can make an argument by saying "well you should have made better choices in your life..." Thats all well and good, but I believe that in this day and age, and in a country as rich as america especially, even if we make poor choices, they shouldn't dictate the rest of our lives by making it nearly impossible to move out of poverty. - dupswapdrop, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12The comment I hear from one of my website hosts that I called for help.
me " why is my website down?"
them "no speake English call back later"
click.
Guess who's not hosting my website anymore? - scards, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12At Penn State's College of IST Future Forum, I attended a forum on future trends in IT Consulting. This was one of the topics the heads and representatives of companies like IBM had said. They've found that moving jobs away from the US was actually HURTING their productivity. There's a growing trend around the industry to bring those jobs back into the states.
Good news for IT professionals. - sycorob24, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11I remember hearing awhile back that the ideal time to start studying for a particular field is when the field is oversaturated and people are leaving it, like you did. These things seem to go in cycles, right around 4 - 5 years long... I almost missed it. IT was hot when I started school, and right after I graduated in 2000 it all blew up.
As for outsourcing - it's still going to happen. It was a brand new field, and India, China, etc didn't quite have their game together. Yes, you CAN expect to get to get the same quality of work for $200 a month, because the dude you're paying $200 has his freaking Doctorate in CS and really really wants that job. The reason that it hasn't worked so far is that managing a project remotely is hard on it's own, and gets really hard when you throw in a different time zone and a different culture. But American companies will absolutely figure out how to deal with this, I promise you, and outsourving will continue. - asurroca, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Spot on! I refuse to talk to people speaking in broken English out of call centers in foreign countries. I presume a growing number of Americans think the same way... it's just not fair to the consumer. And once companies start realizing that the customer service complaints aren't worth the savings (believe me, it will take A LOT to outweigh the savings though) then that will be the end of outsourcing.
- geronimo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I don't like outsourcing. If you bring people on board you should look at them not as liabilities but as assets who can generate new ideas and help grow the company while you give them ownership. Some bean counters think they can just get some sucker to work for them, not give them ownership, while the guys at the top roll in the dough. They are tired of those smelly programmers in the US getting such high salaries.
That will work in the short run, but when these people you treat like slaves learn your business then compete against you or they just do a crappy job over time after getting burnt out, the good times will be over. The bean counters underestimate the ability of coders. Coders know your core business inside and out. You are at the end of the day at their mercy, if you don't believe it, then you will eventually be forced to believe this. - balls187, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I thought I address other countries by writing "They may live better than people in poor countries..."
I understand that US citizens are better off than many people in the world, but that doesn't mean they make a decent living at $5.15 an hour.
Trivializing the poor in the US by comparing them to the poor in India, by saying "Oh look they don't have it so bad." Is like trivilizing the victims of 9/11 by comparing them to those who died in holocaust saying "Oh they didn't have it bad."
If you think they do make a decent living, I invite you to try living for 6 months on minimum wage. - ocsurfreport, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9@fyre2012
----You're forgetting about the rest of the world, like so many folks tend to do
$5.15 is a rich man's salery in many places on Earth, and education is non-existant in many of these places.----
WTF? So because 5.15 an hour is a rich man’s salary in many places on earth, that makes it ok here? I got an idea, why don’t these people working for $5.15 an hour take a private plane back and forth to those other places on earth, and reap the rewards of $5.15 an hour, the logic is that the private plane in those countries would be about $1.00 to fly here, because after all $5.15 an hour is a rich man salary.
And WTF with this education of other countries have to do with here? We are like number 30 in the world in education check out 20/20 Stupid in America
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pfRUMmTs0ZA
I did not want to believe it, but after your post it must be true.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6While alot of your worldwide brethren will take an opportunity to mod you up for slamming America and American corporations for exploiting cheap labor, take a look at the REST of the planet. If your neighbor will mow your yard for $5 and a company wants $20, you'll go with the $5 every time. It's just simple economics and has nothing to do with any country or it's perceived policies.
- evolseven, on 10/12/2007, -1/+61) I didn't know that college grants and student loans will help pay rent, and take care of your children.
2) Have you tried working full-time and going to school full time?
3) How about taking care of a child while attending school.
1-They will to some limited expense, especially if you look at community colleges and the like.
2-using on-line courses it is definitely possible, I am currently employed at a 40+ hour a week job and I go to school half time, but I enroll in all 4 semesters a year, spring,fall, summer I,II so in effect i get full time.
3-I would say on-line courses are your best bet, and they are widely available from accredited schools.
And yes your choices are your own fault, but by arguing that its impossible to do these things, when it is very possible you are diffusing your responsibility for the situation, which in my opinion is one of the biggest problems with this country, no one wants to be responsible for anything. - drame, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Even if outsourcing was still profitable it is only a temporary solution. Eventually outsourced countries will meet the standards in quality of life and expenses we here in the western world have. Although that could be time enough for companies to squeeze the profits they need to develop more profitable ventures / solutions.
- MasterGrief, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I recently re-installed windows, and when it told me I had installed it too many times with the same registration ID (all on the same computer, but because of numerous hardware and software failures I kept re-installing) it told me to call tech support. I was re-installing at about two in the morning, Central time, and I called tech support. After going through the automation, I was sent to a fairly pleasant Indian man, presumably in India. He helped me fix everything, was mostly understandable, and seemed to have no trouble understanding what I was saying. Point is, not all outsourced work is bad, just a lot of it is.
- h0kiez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6America is all about cheap...and I don't see anything wrong with it. If somone in China makes my shoes for $10 a week, that's fine with me as long as he isn't being forced to do it. Sweatshops and slave labor are one thing, but simple low wages are another. I have to assume that he's making my shoes because it's the best job he could find, thus I'm going him a favor by allowing him to make $10 a week.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I hate to break it to you Scards but IST at Penn State was a joke and a waste of 4 years. My only advice to you is if you're a freshman or a sophmore to go into the Software Development and Design option like I did. Or you will be like the guys I graduated with in Integration. Working for 30 thousand dollars a year, living at home with their parents, and wondering why they just paid for 4 years of Penn State Education.
Oh and those numbers they gave you, they fooled me too. Those graduates making 50k + are the ones working in the D.C metro area. I had a job offer from BAE for 52 - thousand and a signing bonus. But the cost of living in McLean V.A would have crippled me.
My advice to you, keep readnig sites like digg and slashdot. Study a lot outside of the class room, get involved with everything you can, and don't go integration.
PSU Kardi
Class of '06 - CharlesDarwin, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6We gave away all the jobs already. There's simply nothing left to outsource! ;)
- Ribald_Jester, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4outsourcing is overblown. Is some instances it can be helpful - but too often companies go into thinking "big savings" without looking at the big picture. Personally, I think we should outsource all worthless middle managers. That would be fine with me :)
- balls187, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"It's not supposed to be easy. Nothing worth having in life is. If you think otherwise you have an entitlement attitude that needs to be calibrated."
Hogwash. I knew PLENTY of people in college who got by because their parents were rich alumni and donated big-bucks to the school. They were then given posh jobs with thier parents law-firms upon graduation.
"This is exactly what I don't like This sense of entitlement is very bad. Personal responsibilty has to kick in somewhere."
You don't think people should have access to affordable healthcare? You don't think that people should be able to make a living on the income they recieve for working hard?
People are so quick to shoult "personal responsibility" but thats not a solution to anything. Yes people make bad choices, and yes they should have been more responsibile. After that, then what? No, people shouldn't be given anything on a silver platter, but I don't think that making one bad decision in your life should totally bone you over for the rest of your life.
And for the "I did it so can you, comments" Yeah I know. My old man came here with $100 bucks to his name, rose up and became a successful person living the american dream. I know it's possible, especially in america, but that doesn't mean the system is perfect. - techbum, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10The outsourcing thing was driven by the budget weenies. Unfortunately, most IT and business operations folks failed to react effectively to the push for lower costs, at all costs. Cheaper is not usually better......
- scards, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Ahhhhh... I think you're putting too much trust in the governments and corporations in those 'underdeveloped' countries to put the money they're making back into the quality of life there. You think Dell's putting the money they "save" back into the cities in India where their call centers are located to help develop schools and put a Starbucks on every corner? I remain very critical of corporate America.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5What the article fails to mention is the fact that out of all the jobs that were outsourced in the US, only roughly 2% of those were outsourced overseas. The vast majority were outsourced to companies down the street, on the other side of town or in another state.
But ya gotta love media hype and idiot politicians for making something sound like the Apocalypse. *sheesh* - qwickone, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Now don't take this as me condoning slavery or child labor, but all that is a result of the capitalist economy. Can you expect anything less when everything is for the bottom line? Outsourcing has a long way to go in terms of making the consumers happy, but it's promising. And while it's true it's making the US's slice of the pie a little smaller, the pie itself is getting bigger (by growing the economies of India, Singapore, etc.), which in the end, comes back around to us. A smaller slice of a bigger pie will still be more pie for everyone, and really, who can argue with pie?
- EatenByAGrue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Another thing people seem to forget is that the U.S. is terribly expensive to live in. And to operate a business from. Let me explain:
First, I can live very well on $US20,000/year in India, but would be below the poverty level in the States.
Second, because I was born in, grew up in, and work in the States, my employer gets saddled with extra expenses (directly or indirectly). These include social security taxes (most employees only pay half of what the government gets... your employer pays the other half out of their pocket), environment protections (employers in the States don't have the right to pollute like some other countries allow, buildings must conform to certain fire and earthquake codes, etc., all of which gives foreigners an advantage in cheaper utilities, rent, etc.), more rigid accounting standards (Enron excluded, of course), partial contributions to health coverage (they can't get you to do work if you're out sick all the time, and U.S. healthcare is very pricey), to name just a handful. Sometimes, they even have to pay time-and-a-half for work over 40-hours. These all add up in employee-related expenses that don't happen in an offshore location.
My point is that American workers have huge disadvantages when competing with offshored competitors. Are Americans more lazy or more incompetent? Sometimes, but not always. But, all other things being equal, it's impossible for an American to compete with someone in India, China, or many other countries that don't require all the taxes and regulation that the U.S. government requires. Either American companies should be restricted in their use of offshored employees, or American employees should be given a more fair playfield to compete in. - DaveMN, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Didn't mean to rag on the submitter- looks like the misleading headline is on the original article.
- zbeast, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Just recently a company that I consulting with had a project destroyed by an Indan software company.
In order to cover there bad coding they were making system patches that would uninstall.
Critical windows updates so the software they had written would run.
There are still others who have had there proprietary software source taken and release as
products in other country's. I'm laffing big now.
It's nice to see Apples stopped outsourcing there work. If you move the jobs from over here.
where are people going to get the money to buy your products here.
- h0kiez, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3MMMMM......General Tso's....getting very hungry I am.
- techbum, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5So, I guess that moving to India to get a job with a US company isn't going to be a viable career path anymore?
- SpannerX, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Plus even less people to buy new products since they lost their jobs or are under employed.
- tackle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4[Quote]I HATE it when I call customer service and I get someone on the other end, obviously from India or some other country with a poor understanding of english attempting to talk with me[/Quote]
You realize that one of the reasons why services and goods are getting cheaper and more affordable is because the customer service is being outsourced to a cheaper place. If you move it to somewhere like US, the added cost will only be passed on to the customers. This doesnt mean that the companies care about the customers. You can say that companies care about customers when they try to cut down the price of their service/goods which makes it easier for middle class families to afford the service or product.
Who knows??. Maybe, if the customer service is moved to US, you might not even be able to afford that service/product that you are whining about.
Also, its not like people that you talk to from India have a "poor understanding of english". It is your accent that they'll find difficult to understand. Saying people from India have a "poor understanding of english" is like saying "I cant understand their accent so I have a poor understanding of english". - balls187, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@tirade
"You are looking for freedom from responsibility. Doesn't exist. If there is anything the American tax payer does not have an obligation to subsidize, it is irresponsible behavior."
No I'm not.
I'm just saying that after you take responsibility for your actions, it shouldn't be pulling teeth to get back on the right track.
I made all the right decisions in my life, didn't do drugs, didnt get a girl pregnant, went to a damn good school, got a damn good job, but that doesn't mean I don't have compassion for other people who aren't as fortunate as I am. - nudedave, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6What government? What country?
Outsourcing just proves that our governing bodies are corporations and not elected Representatives. And them waffling on using our sourcing is again proof, as they will go where ever they can maximize profit, no matter the consiquence. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Outsourcing is different from Offshoring. Please understand the difference. The article very clearly states that more and more companies are preferring offshoring over onshore outsourcing.
From TFA:
"Premature contract terminations, particularly with onshore providers, continue to be a prevalent trend, he noted. The study found that 47 percent of buyers reported they had prematurely terminated at least one outsourcing relationship in the prior 12 months.
Only 28 percent of buyers terminated at least one offshore deal, but 42 percent of onshore customers had done so. Of those, 53 percent cited poor performance by their onshore provider.
In addition, customers also questioned whether they're receiving value from onshore providers, Weakland said.
"There's negativity building in onshore versus offshore. We see more people terminating onshore deals in order to put things offshore," said Weakland. " - GuyHitByTruck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3OOH!! OOH!! I know this one!
"What is '*****'"? - h0kiez, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Maybe I'm naive, but I think that the vast majority of people seriously impoverished in the US have done a pretty good job of earning their position. I know of very few (if any) people that work hard, make good choices, legitimately try their best and have a hard time getting by. The sad truth is that a certain percentage of people will ALWAYS make bad choices no matter how much others or the government is there to prop them up. Feeding more and more money to these people (often to be spent on drugs, alcohol, cigs or other vices) is not the answer. Not everyone can be saved.
- NSMike, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5@hchaudh1 -
"I assume you just got back from hoisting the red, white and blue in your yard, or taking a break from Lou Dobbs."
Where on EARTH did you pull THAT out of my comment?
India, believe it or not, is still a largely third world country.
Speakers of other dialects of English are still, in fact, native English speakers, and are largely MORE understandable than an Indian using it as his second language.
I'm not sure what your comment about Wal-Mart is supposed to communicate, but I don't shop there. Not because they hurt small business. Not because they're approaching monopolistic behaviors, but because I got sick of every crazy cook from the backwoods that weighs 300 lbs shopping in a flannel shirt wearing pajama bottoms.
IIT - If it's so hard to get it, chances are the large majority of people working for outsourced companies AREN'T getting in. - asurroca, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3In other words, companies who outsource are getting better results when they outsource to a foreign country than when they outsource to a company based in the US. To me, the fact that 28% of companies in the study ended their offshore contract tells me that the quality of offshore outsourcing isn't exactly great, just not as bad as the quality of onshore outsourcing.
I mean, to have to end 1 out of every 4 contracts sounds like pretty dismal performance to me. I wonder what the early contract termination rate was in earlier years. In other words, I get the idea that it is on the rise, and that's why the article claims that the outsourcing boom is over. - hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@balls
This is exactly what I don't like This sense of entitlement is very bad. Personal responsibilty has to kick in somewhere. - hchaudh1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4OK, I concede. I gave a poor analogy. But I was pissed off at getting negative Diggs for what I think are perfectly logical comments.
But my point is, outsourcing is a reality which we have to face. No amount of burying your head in the sand, flag waving or protectionism will make it go away. Corporations, yes even American corporations are not looking out for anyone except their own stock prices.
You think the situation is bad now. Just wait a few more years when countries like India and China will be wealthier and consuming more resources like oil, metals etc. Then the fights will enter the big leagues. We just have to recognize this fact and prepare to meet this challenge. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3If your view of the future is that rosy, you should become a politician. The reality as I see it is that not only will first world countries continue to exploit third world labor, but that the first world nations will even take steps to ensure that the cheap labor pool stays available by interfering with foreign governments in various ways.
India will never grow past the third world; they have neither the resources nor the expertise from the top down to develop their country into something respectable. The rampant overpopulation puts a huge strain on localized resources and high tarriffs on imported goods puts a strain on who can afford imported goods and foods. Add to that the constant brain-drain of educated Indians fleeing the toxic waste zone that is India and enjoying the good life in Western countries and you start to see how bleak the future is for India. The best thing that ever happened to them was the British occupation as it gave them a path to English and the rest of English-speaking europe (before you flame remember that most euro countries teach english as a second language from gradeschool on).
The situation is much the same with Mexico. Cheap mexican labor allowed to run full speed through border crossings grows the US economy, but the growth isn't sustainable. First generation mexicans will do the ***** work like digging ditches and washing dishes, but second generation mexicans won't settle for that. Being official US citizens, born on US soil, they will want a better life. So, the labor pool has to constantly be refreshed, meanwhile, the US has taken on an estimated 20 million illegals and their new citizen offspring over the last decade. Ultimately the US pays the price for this labor through civil services like free hospital care and other welfare programs that, in some regions, are buckling under the stress of short budgets and just too many mexicans. Some cities and counties have resorted to requiring social security cards that are verified just to get in the door at clinics and hospitals as well as a handful of other official documentation. The worst part is that the money that illegals make isn't even put back into the economy, half of it is sent back home to various south american countries and Mexico. Mexico last year had an unbelievable influx of 12.5 BILLION dollars from illegal workers. Yet still, Mexico remains a third world, dirt poor, uneducated country with a corrupt government to boot. As I've said in the past, throwing money at enormous, deep-rooted problems doesn't make them disappear, in fact it can even broaden them.
So to sum up, if you're still awake, the third world will remain the third world. Name one independent country that has been promoted from third world to even second or first world in the last 50 years. - mrgreen4242, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I read that a lot of these entry level jobs that are outsourced to India have massive complexes built where the company provides as part of your compensation (or at least at a vey good rate) your living quarters along with cafeteria privledges. The dormatories/apartments are either walking distance to the office buildings or trains/buses are provided by the company. In the same complex there is retail and other office space available for lease to business who want to provide services to the people who live/work there. Bars, barbers, video rental, even doctors and dentists. They get a captive audience, the company running the whole show gets a nice return on their investment.
The worker gets paid a lower actual salary, but is provided a very nice package of other benefits. There are places in the US where land and labor are cheap enough to build complexes like these. Perhaps not as inexpensively as in India, but certainly a far lower cost than putting an operation in NYC or some other existing metropolis. I'm thinking areas like Iowa or the Dakotas or Montana where land is cheap, and the additional local cost of living is low, including taxes.
Sure, you're not going to attract as many experienced, older professionals with families to that sort of facility, but you don't need to for things like call centers. A few thousand peons and a small percentage of managers and higher level technical people (who could be at a seperate facility anyways) would do the trick. State and local governments would probably be happy to provide significant tax breaks to defray the building costs, the number of jobs created by such a project would be huge. Not only are there the actual workers, but the support services like building maintainence in the dorms, bus drivers, cafeteria workers, the small business opened up the leased space all would make some serious tax revenue for the state.
Anyways, that got kinda long, but the point is that rather than outsourcing and risking poor quality the backlash from customers companies need to think more efficiently and "insource" with newer, better busienss models. - DaveMN, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7If you RTFA, it is the onshore outsourcing that is in decline, in favor of offshoring, so the digg headline is misleading, and the news is not good:
From TFA:
Only 28 percent of buyers terminated at least one offshore deal, but 42 percent of onshore customers had done so. Of those, 53 percent cited poor performance by their onshore provider. In addition, customers also questioned whether they're receiving value from onshore providers, Weakland said. There's negativity building in onshore versus offshore. We see more people terminating onshore deals in order to put things offshore," said Weakland. -
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