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191 Comments
- darmokan, on 10/12/2007, -18/+70Wow, bad joke, sure, but maybe counseling would've been better than suspending the 15-year-old kid for half a school year. Who hasn't said a hundred times in high school, "I wanna kill that guy," without meaning a word of it? Ridiculous.
- potee, on 10/12/2007, -9/+46"Also, why did the parents wait this long to sue?"
The case probably took that long to slog through the U.S. civil court system. - plamoni, on 10/12/2007, -13/+39There is a difference between saying, man, I really want to kill that guy and actually posting the "threat" in a public place accompanied by a picture of a gun shooting someone in the head. The latter is a clear threat of violence. If such things were "protected", what is to stop a KKK from posting fliers that show a lynching and say, "Kill all blacks"?
There has to be a line. This kid crossed it. It was a stupid thing to do.
But of course this is coming from a guy who has a buddy icon of Jack Thompson getting smacked in the head by a video game system. - RexKwando, on 10/12/2007, -32/+57If I were Mr. VanderMolen, I would have took action against this individual. The student really had it coming.
Imagine an image of you floating around that people are insinuating that you are about to be shot in the head? - brianjameskirk, on 10/12/2007, -14/+37I think that taking the time to create an animated icon of a head blowing up is a bit bigger of a deal than saying "man i hate that guy." What could possibly inspire you enough to make that your representation on AIM?
- iceanfire, on 10/12/2007, -4/+26threatning people isn't covered by the first amendment. If he had said "Mr. ___ sucks... i hate how he teaches..." that would have been OK. But instead his icon read "kill MR. ____" which is a threat. I agree with all of you however that the punishment is overboard, but I don't think he is protected by the first amendment.
- vajra918, on 10/12/2007, -8/+27I don't get it.... Free speech does not protect threats. Where do you people get these ideas?
- Orbatos, on 10/12/2007, -19/+38There was no "true threat" constituted by his message. Appalling taste to be sure, but this sort of thing is typical in varying degrees to teenage youth.
Counselling would have questionable impact, but suspension is useless. - ultimathule, on 10/12/2007, -5/+24Great. Did you learn this in law school?
- spectre, on 10/12/2007, -11/+24 I'm sorry, but I don't see why there's a problem with making it perfectly clear that a threat to shoot a teacher in the is to be taken seriously. The kid was in the wrong, real wrong. If his parents weren't lazy *****-ups, this wouldn't be an issue, how do you justify wanting to kill someone who has done nothing wrong?
This 15 year old was behaving like exactly what he was, a dumbass. I'm not necessarily in agreement with the level of rebuke brought down on his head, but to say that threatening to kill someone should be a protected right is ridiculous. As I said before, I think the punishment was a bit harsh, but then again, at what point in a path of violence are you supposed to take action? Should you wait until innocent people are taking rounds in the chest? Of course not. I believe the school did exactly what it should have in dealing with a possible serious threat.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. - M2Ys4U, on 10/12/2007, -5/+17"kill xyz" is an imperitive statement.
"I'm going to kill xyz" is a threat. - GliTCH82, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11"I bet it would be a different story if the kid was muslim."
Oh no doubt, but as a muslim myself I know better than to do stupid ***** like that. There's other ways for you to vent about a teacher who's a douchebag - jiggazah, on 10/12/2007, -10/+21I really hope the family pursues this issue despite the first hearing. IM icons deciding a persons enrollment is frightening, to think how many times i could have been kicked from the registrar if this was a deciding factor when i was still in grades 12 and bellow.
... an IM icon... jeez, i bet if you said bomb at that school it would be evacuated like you'd expect on an airplane. No more chem classes i guess. - Orbatos, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12The only subject worthy of debate here is whether to regard the icon as a "true threat", in which case many other forms of expression (in similarly poor taste) might also constitute a threat.
- GliTCH82, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14This most definitely isn't a violation of free speech rights, you don't have the right to make threats against people. However, the article did mention that the kid didn't have a history of disciplinary problems prior to this incident, which leads me to believe that Mr. VanderMolen is a douchebag who isn't very friendly and lacks the social skills necessary to determine that his student was merely indicating his frustration with the class.
- somerandomnerd, on 10/12/2007, -13/+23I bet it would be a different story if the kid was muslim.
- Scruffydan, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13anyone know what the icon in question was? or have a link to it?
- FluffyArmada, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I think we all learn an important lesson here; Don't screw with English teachers. They have powers that we cannot possibly imagine. :p
- nj2005, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Poor metaphor. A more apt comparison would be if the teacher had made an icon displaying that kid getting his brains blown out with the message of 'Kill Aaron'. In this case the teacher would be immediately fired, never to get a job as a teacher again. Most likely he would be sued by the family as well.
Personally I think the kid was an idiot and deserved what he got. - vajra918, on 10/12/2007, -19/+27I agree, RexKwando. This is/was a serious matter and action had to be taken. The gravity of the punishment is valid, though I have some doubt regarding its implementation. What good will a suspension do really?
- Pellaeon, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14@iceandfire - OK, so if I buy a tasteless Donkey Punch t-shirt, is that a direct threat to any woman that reads it? did his icon say I am going to kill Mr. Whatshisname? It said kill whatshis name. Its more of a request than a threat. Also, did he specifically send this to the teacher, or say it to his face? No, someone told on him. It was tasteless, yes, but come on, its not a direct threat, and not on school grounds. How overdramatic this is. I used to have an IM Icon of Sgt Garcia shooting a pinata. Doesn't mean I was threatening all Hispanic birthday parties.
- MellerTime, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14So do I. I mean, let's look at this...
1) Fellow students think it's a joke. I'm sure they'd have heard him muttering things about how he's going to kill the teacher, what gun he's going to use, etc. if he were actually planning on doing it.
2) Local law enforcement thinks it's a joke. At the worst, I'd expect them to sit down with the boy and talk to him about how people could potentially mis-construe this kind of thing.
3) A psychologist decides that, in his professional opinion, the boy did not pose a threat. If a psychologist's professional opinion during a murder trial that the defendant is psycho is enough to get the death penalty lifted, how is it not enough to get the kid cleared? Obviously we're seeing a trend by this point - it's a joke, people!
4) Child has no previous behavioral issues to take into account.
Now, I'm not saying the kid doesn't have too much time on his hands here... Obviously, he does. He either needs an after school job, or needs to stop staying up until 3am on the computer. In any case, suspending him FOR AN ENTIRE SEMESTER isn't exactly what I'd have done. Go back to your psychologist here... If he wants to kill the teacher, then the teacher makes a huge deal about it and gets him suspended for an entire semester, what are the chances this will redeem the teacher in the student's eyes? Somehow, I don't think it's going to solve our problem the way we had hoped. Should the student have actually intended to harm the teacher, I'd say it's more likely that the teacher would have someone in his bushes late at night...
I still think it was perfectly harmless. Just a case of a kid who was perterbed at a teacher and had too much time on his hands and likes to mess around on the computer in Photoshop... Sit down and talk to him? Yes. Give him detention? Perhaps. Suspend him for a day or two? That's getting out there. Suspend him for an entire semester? That's just farking ridiculous...
By this logic, I could sue the next person on Digg and have them arrested for threatening to kick my ass. A threat isn't protected by the First Amendment, and clearly any threat is considered 100% serious... Sure, maybe it looks logical when you narrow down to this specific instance (not to me, but some people obviously agree). When you start taking these decisions and looking at them as policy-building opinions for future cases and other situations, that's when it starts to really look like total *****...
String of lawsuits against jerk high school jocks picking on kids in 3... 2... 1...... - brianjameskirk, on 10/12/2007, -7/+15Although I do think that such a long suspension is a little over the top.
- templest, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Wait Wait Wait...
He makes an animated icon of his teacher getting shot and gets a vacation
from school? Hell, I need to learn how to make those. - lazyguy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9And now, he REALLY DOES want to kill him.
Good job. - LostLaw, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8@ flamingmb: It doesn't really matter that it happened outside of school, the effect took place in school. This is kind of a gray area of con law right now (we got to parse out a similar situation for con law class about a year ago). Basically, iceanfire is probably correct in saying that an opinion would be protected, where threatening a student or teacher outside the school can lead to trouble in school. Blame Columbine etc. for the overreaction.
- missflibbles, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8The article never says that. Doing it at school would be grounds for suspension or expulsion and there would be no question of that. The article is vague, and says it was circulated around his classmates, which may have happened outside of school. The article also mentions at least once that it was on his home computer.
- vajra918, on 10/12/2007, -8/+14Im out of creative ways to say your wrong... sorry.
- wanderson, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7This isn't true. It's a public school system and as posted, it's not freedom of speech, it's a targeted, graphic threat of violence against a school community member and the administration has the responsibility for the safety of its community members. That's at least how the system sees it. The kid may be totally nonviolent and would have never actually hurt the English teacher, but it's still a stupid thing to do on his part and he should've known better in this day and age.
- endernet, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Having talked in the past with a few cops in my town, they only consider something to be a threat if there is intent. Saying, "I really want to kill that guy" isn't a threat, but "I am going to kill that guy" is a threat. "Kill Bill" or "Kill Mr. VanderMolen" is threatening, but given its context I would agree it was just a joke. Besides, its every students god given right to want a teacher to die at some point.
- panique, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6When a threat is made against faculty or staff, the school has jurisdiction to take disciplinary action. It does not matter if he was on the quad or at Starbuck's.
- ...---..., on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Hey, in this post-Columbine era school systems have learned the lesson to not take these things too lightly - and I think that they were appropriate. Imagine if the school system hadn't acted on this and the kid actually did kill the teacher - imagine the lawsuits then by the teacher's family. In the Columbine situation both the police (as in this case too) and the school system failed to act on a threatening website posted by Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris. They have to take these tings seriously - bottom line...
- theuber1337, on 10/12/2007, -15/+20It's a threat, if you think you can threaten or harrass people and be protected under the constitution, you are sadly mistaken. I think the teacher did the right thing, the kid is an idot for doing it in the first place.
- MellerTime, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7I love the Hispanic birthday parties analogy... :)
- Muyoso, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Um, the school has NO right to do anything to the kid. They have NO jurisdiction and under the constitution have no right to judge what a person does in his own home. This is an invasion of privacy. The kid may have made a mistake, but the school is greatly overstepping their bounds in suspending him. Do you think its a school's right to suspend/expell you for smoking cigarettes at home if you are under 18? What if you stole some money from your parents? Could they suspend you then? If you get in a fight with another classmate away from school, is it within their bounds to take action? No, No, and NO.
- darmokan, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12The article doesn't convey what his intentions were. Regardless, he was out of line. He likely intended it to be a joke, but there has to be a motivation of some kind for him to go through the trouble of creating an image of a gun blowing his teacher's brains all over the place. I did some stupid crap in high school... nothing like this, but maybe a caricature of my principal getting punched in the face or kicked in the jibblies or something. Not like I was actually gonna do it, but hey, teenage angst sometimes manifests itself like that. Expression that can be taken to mean something else. On the other hand, maybe he really was planning on shooting his teacher. Who the hell knows?
What's ridiculous is a suspension as punishment, and a long one at that. What's to prevent this kid from building up this dislike for his teacher even more during this time? "Man, I got suspended for 4 months because of him." He was 15, and for God's sake, pretty naive. The kid needs counseling, and his parents, too, for trying to defend him on grounds of his "right to free speech".
Yeah, punishment needed, but not suspension. That's as good as pissing in a cup, storing it for 4 months, and expecting it to turn into a delicious beverage. - DigitalPenguin, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Hmm a vacation for a month to create even more icons.......
- LoungeActx, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9I agree that the joke was in bad taste, but I do believe the school has to do some "threat assessment" before handing down a punishment as severe as they did. Look at the facts; the kid had no prior disciplinary problems, when asked about it he freely admitted it was a joke, and all of his friends and classmates knew about it for 3 weeks and they didn't suspect it was anything more than a joke.
I think we should be more conscious of our first amendment rights, and be able to draw a line between actual threat and a joke in poor taste. - olego, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4He's 15 and is still in Middle School? Aren't most kids in 10th grade by that age?
- FatHed, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6How could the judge say it was a threat, when the cops did not. If the child actually threaten someone then he would have broken the law and the police would have arrested him.
- SoulMaster2, on 10/12/2007, -8/+12"I will kill (someone)" is a threat, "kill (somone)" is not a direct threat
- geardosdotnet, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11America has freedom of speech. As long as you lock yourself in a room and never deal with actual humans you are allowed to say whatever you want.
- thenutty1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I have to agree with those that think it's a violation of free speech. I don't think it was smart of the kid to do this, but the icon was created and displayed from his HOME. Regardless of where people could POTENTIALLY view it (meaning you would have to message him or get a message from him, which is your choice), it doesn't make sense that the school is right here. Now if he went to the computer lab at school and signed on using this icon, then that would be a problem.
He also had no intent, history or means (AFAIK), to actually commit the act. If he saw his teacher at the mall and called him a man-loving ass hat, should he get suspended? Nope. And that's basically the equivalent of what happened here. I think the kid should grow up a bit, and the teacher should grow a pair and stop looking for easy ways to try and get days off. - wyndl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3What I think a lot of you just aren't understanding is that the action brought against the student is in fact within the jurisdiction of the school. It is plainly stated in every public school system's code of conduct that you are not allowed to threaten a teacher/staff or even another student on OR off campus. The real problem here is parenting, which is quite obvious considering his parents went with the litigation against the school system. They have no basis for appeal. The kid made a mistake and he's going to have to live with the consequences. I don't think that the suspension was overboard. Whether or not the teacher is a nancy-boy is irrelevant, the student is in the wrong.
- MrCodeDude, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I don't think a buddy icon where you're killing someone is a very funny joke. Now, I love jokes, especially racist and sexist ones, but the icon doesn't at all seem funny. Maybe if it had him dying in a funny manner, like, death by clowns or something, then yes, joke. But bullet to the head, not so funny.
- Inbal, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3It wasn't a bad joke, I laughed my ass off and I think the teacher has a real problem if he feels threatened by that. Every teacher (especially an English teacher...) should take it for granted that their students hate them (if the students don't, great). Nowadays, there is absolutely no difference between saying "man, I want to kill that teacher" and making an icon showing that teacher dead - it's just a different kind of communication, that I don't see how none of you get. He didn't enlarge it and hung it in the toilets to excite the masses , or circulate it among his friends in an attempt to gather an anti-VanderMolen army, it was just a cute graphic way to express his justified hate for school.
- Chompy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"It may not but why was this even in court?"
That's generally where people end up when they sue someone. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"The teacher needs to grow some balls(or ovaries?) and just to stop blowing ***** out of proportion, this is a 15 year old high school student."
Yeah, because 15 year old kids have never gone on shooting sprees at school....
":
Although I dont understand, if this was on the kid's computer, shouldnt this have been handled by the police if he indeed thought it was a threat to his life? But the school system ***** him in the ass and its not even within their jurisdiction"
Yeah, the dumbass got off lucky, mere suspension over juvy until he turns 18. - iCallShotgun, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5What kind of a joke is that? Sure, you can talk about about "killing" someone jokingly, but to make an emoticon of the teacher being killed? I personally think that's rather weird. I mean, would you do that?
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