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204 Comments
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -21/+113"However, "if a student were to post on a Web site ... at 2 p.m. a bomb will go off in a school -- that would probably cross a line to a crime.""
Uhhh... duh?
I'm not american, but it seems I know the logic of 'freedom of speech' better than most Americans do. Just because you have freedom of speech, that doesn't mean there can't be concequences to you speaking. And freedom of speech only applies to stop the government preventing people from speaking out against them. It doesn't allow people to say whatever they want to someone else without repercussions. Why do so many people not realise this and just use 'I've got freedom of speech!' to try getting away with anything? In this particular case the school is being over the top, I'm talking more generally. - sandrat44, on 10/12/2007, -9/+67Well, the article mentioned he did not make any threats, didn't name anyone and basically said what he thought. Does not seem he was suicidal or anything. Knowing only that, I'd side with the kid and say the school has gone over the top on this one. It'd be interesting to see what the postings were.
Yeah tizz, just cuz ur free to speak does not eliminate cause and effect. Almost gave you -digg till I read that last sentence "n this particular case the school is being over the top, I'm talking more generally". - peskypescado, on 10/12/2007, -5/+50Honestly, a student should be able to criticize their school/district as much as they want even while at school. Maybe not in the middle of class, but it shouldn't matter if it is at school or not. It is called protesting, something I think we have a right to do here in the US.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -13/+49If your as upset as I am... here I did the work for you.... enjoy...
Administration Center
Plainfield Community Consolidated School District 202
15732 Howard Street
Plainfield, IL 60544
Tel: (815) 577-4000
Fax: (815) 436-7824
Operations/Maintenance Office
914 N. Eastern Avenue
Plainfield, IL 60544
Tel: (815) 436-7800
Fax: (815) 439-4830
Technology/Media Office
500 W. Fort Beggs Drive
Plainfield, IL 60544
Tel: (815) 439-4567
Fax: (815) 439-3952
Email comments to:
info@learningcommunity202.org
Web site address:
http://www.learningcommunity202.org
Administration Center Hours:
Monday through Friday, 8 a.m. until 4 p.m. - FEWrecks, on 10/12/2007, -2/+36So he posts on his blog that he's being threatened by the school board and they set out to prove him right?
- jaked409, on 10/12/2007, -8/+38Neither anger nor immaturity are grounds for suspension/expulsion when expressed outside school grounds and outside school hours. It it not pleasant, but definitely not grounds for suspension/expulsion. To me, this seems like a blatant violation of freedom of speech.
- adam84a, on 10/12/2007, -9/+34You're right, you do have a much better understanding of freedom of speech than most Americans.
- CupBeEmpty, on 10/12/2007, -2/+26Once again... it seems that diggers don't know their basic civics. It is my opinion that the school overreacted and probably has no legal leg to stand on. However, there is a lot of leeway with juveniels especially with relation to school. If they can make a case that there was a threat or disruption of the learning process then they might win a case. IANAL but this looks like a clear cut win for the kid over the school and will probably set a good precedent for schools not over-stepping their bounds.
Specific to speech rights at school and their limitations:
http://www.acluofnorthcarolina.org/studentrights2.html
Primer on freedom of speech in the US:
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/default.html
more general philosophical primer on the subject:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/ - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27O just to make it even easier for you..... here is directly how to get to John Harpers personal inbox..
(815) 577-4000
after 6 rings, the answerming machine picks up and asks you where you want to go
select 1 to reach an inbox by name
dial this in.
4277375646
That takes you right to Mr harpers voice box..... Enjoy ! - rasterbator, on 10/12/2007, -2/+24:None of us ever put in our xanga's that they were going to kill or bring harm to any one."
At first I read that as "ham" and not harm. Whole different meaning. - humblepatience, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25??? What indicated that he would try violent action?
- atroxodisse, on 10/12/2007, -5/+25Many schools have Zero tolerance policies which they shout about loudly and run around thumping their chests while at the same time they ignore anyone who actually complains of being bullied. It's a big joke. It leads to only one conclusion, if you want to stop a bully, hit him in the face because the school isn't going to do anything about it. The school's really aren't sending out a good message.
- atroxodisse, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19The media isn't the paragon of neutrality that it once was. These days everything is an editorial. If we limited digg to neutral articles everyone would sit around refreshing a blank page all day...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+18Man, sorry for the 3rd post... but here is the page the school district is so up in arms over...
http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=Heckler3672bro&tab=weblogs&uid=480037233 - jpatch, on 10/12/2007, -2/+19"Columbine" is a keyword in the school system. Once said by a student, it means to the administration, "take action against the student who said it."
Back in my freshman year of high school, I said to a small group of peers, "I wonder how those guys could get that kind of weaponry into school without being noticed." That day, one of those people went to the principal's office reporting that I was plotting to start a high school massacre.
The next day, I was sent into the principal's office and asked questions about this "incident." I had NO intention of the sort, but since I had said "Columbine," everyone thought I was going to be the next high school gunman... Puh-leez! (I guess you just have to know me to understand.)
You can't say "bomb" in an airport, "fire" at the movies, or "Columbine" at school.
Or, as this case proves, anything about your school on Xanga. - Zm3r3, on 10/12/2007, -8/+25What they've done to this kid is *****.
When I was at school the advice all the kids were told was 'If your being bullied, tell someone. ANYONE' If this kid is being bullied and the teachers are aware about it surely they should help him. They were offended about the 'vulgar words' he used. *****, get over it! The kid is quiet clearly screaming for help, so what if he calls everyone a *****-SMOKING, BAG OF SPUNK, glaze over it and reach out a ***** hand.
Oh and what was a teacher doing reading and kid's blog??!!?!!!11!! - al28p, on 10/12/2007, -4/+19I heard a story a couple of years ago were a kid bad-mouthed his teachers on his blog. His school found the site, so they payed to shut it down and expelled him from the school. The then sued the school as his right for free-speech was being breached. The judge order his school to forfeit something like $300K in compensation... Message to school: i'd forget about this one.
- ryanknapper, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15There should be more pages created by teachers complaining about what lazy idiots are in their classes.
- burke, on 10/12/2007, -8/+22IMO, "Stick that in your pipe and smoke it." is nowhere near threatening. It's pretty much equivalent to "How do you like them apples?" or "Chew on that for a while."
...not like it matters, I *definitely* agree with Jake. - kakapu4u, on 10/12/2007, -8/+22dggeek,
You are hereby suspended from school because of indirect threats associated with your mention of the word Columbine, in combination with your evident frustration. You have no recourse, no appeal, no opportunity for redress of grievances.
In consideration of the article's closing argument, we the school administrators have stuck the Bill of Rights in our pipe and smoked it. - afpunk, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17I'm sure you never said anything immature or irrational as a teenager, especially in the face of even more irrational authority figures.
- tizz66, on 10/12/2007, -11/+24"Dickwad, "freedom of speech" means freedom to say anything without fear of reprisal. If freedom of speech simply means being able to say whatever you want, and then getting punished for it, every ***** country has that you dumbass. So, they're right, and you're a ***** idiot. By the way, "Freedom of speech" doesn't exist. It's *****, it's made up, like santa claus and the tooth fairy."
I guess it's my 'freedom of speech' to call you a ***** before I continue. *****.
No, you cannot say whatever you want without fear of reprisal. You can say what you want, within limits, without being chucked in jail by your government without trial. As a newspaper, you can critisise your government without fear of being shut down for it. THAT is what free speech is about. And yes, virtually every democratic country has exactly the same thing, but Americans (well, the ones I speak to) think they're the only ones that have it. You'll only ever see an American shout 'Oh but I've got freedom of speech!'. Nothing against the American public, but your rights aren't special or different to what we've all got over here. Sometimes I think Americans believe they're the only free country on the planet. You aren't.
Why does this all irk me? I run a forum, and fairly often we have moronic teenagers (American, see my reason in the paragraph above) come and post crap, then when we delete it, tell us they're going to sue us because we aren't giving them freedom of speech. Seriously - I'm not joking. What they fail to realise is they have NO freedom of speech whatsoever when it comes to any entity outside government. We can delete whatever we want, when we want, why we want.
For example, let's say someone in government blew the whistle on a secret. I am fairly positive that even the government could sack that person. Freedom of speech protects your SUPRESSION from talking, NOT the consequences. If that wasn't a case, it'd be absolute carnage. To the person above me saying the school is public: yeah, and they aren't supressing his freedom of speech. He can carry on saying all he wants within the law, but that doesn't mean there aren't concequences in the form of being kicked out of school!
I don't mean to generalise Americans here. I know there's plenty of you that understand your rights, understand other countries and don't preach. I'm really glad you exist to balance the pie. I deal with Americans a lot day-to-day though, and I can tell you there's a lot that don't have that understanding, and it's frustrating.
Note: I said above I do believe the school district was over the top in this, and there'd be better ways to deal with it. But it has got nothing to do with freedom of speech. At all. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18dggeek - if anything makes the kid shoot people, it would be the school's piss poor reaction.
- TubaTechno, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19I looked the following comments below this thread....trust me.....DO NOT continue if you actually want to read an intelligent comment.
- tony23, on 10/12/2007, -4/+14Actually, it's the other way around. By not teaching the kids about the constitution, they no longer HAVE to uphold it, because nobody knows what it means.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13While I disagree with most of the things the ACLU does, I am sad that you can't understand how the kid feels. If he just said, "F**K THE SCHOOL! STICK THAT IN YOUR PIPE", I would agree with you that he was really disrespectful and rude, though if it was on a blog I don't think the school has much right to say anything.
Yet it's as though you completely miss his feelings and motivation. The vulgarity was mixed into a decent-sized blurb that discussed many other feelings about the school. So if he was actually being disrespectful, he was clearly stating why he felt the need to be that way. If anything, the school should reach out to this kid and give him a hand, not reach out and slap him across the face.
He didn't spraypaint, "HIGH ZKOOL SUXX" on the side of the building and proceed to piss all over the wall - he's just a quiet kid expressing himself on a blog. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Here read the kids words... idiot
http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?user=Heckler3672bro&tab=weblogs&uid=480037233 - TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9""""The kid mentions everything that schools fear: Bombs, Community Backlash, and Columbine."""""
Not in the context of actually hurting anyone. He didn't say he was doing anything with a bomb. Community Backlash, you can't say you can't threaten schools with that. That is a valid point. One thing though, we NEVER saw what was origionally posted. He posted something to start this whole thing off.
Eric Wilson - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10I'd love that, to be honest.
- SolidGun1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12I guess that is how it is happening now in schools. When did we lose all the good values in this country?
- intangible, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Maybe if you don't use your real name as your nickname j/k :)
- windycityguy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Link to original posting(s) in question:
http://www.xanga.com/Heckler3672bro/477936092/item.html
http://www.xanga.com/Heckler3672bro/480037233/item.html - BrewedInTexas, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11It all come down to 1 thing.
He's a juvenile. He has no rights. Zero. Zip. Nadda.
How do I know?
I was CHARGED with a crime in high school. So, the school decides to expell me immediately. Texas law says, you get expelled, you go juveile boot camp. I spend the entire time I'm in there fighting the legal battle still. Court dates keep getting pushed back.
Guess what the judge finally does.
Drops all charges. "These charges were rediculous."
After I spent the last 16 weeks in boot camp.
I tried to fight back.
Every lawyer I talked to told me the same thing.
"Sorry, you're a juvenile. You have no rights." - snefsky, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13after reading the article, it seems that everyone over-reacted. the kid bringing up columbine and being vulgar wasn't smart, and he shouldn't have done that, but the school trying to expell him for voicing his thoughts? If a public school is funded by the taxpayers and the government, and we have the right to criticize the government, then there should be no reason the kid should get in trouble. Warned that he's close to crossing that delicate line, yes, but actually punished? hell no.
- dggeek, on 10/12/2007, -13/+20Yes, but where does it leave the school if they know about these postings and then the kid goes and shoots a teacher? They will be blasted for knowing and not doing anything.
The problem is, because of our new hands-off, PC culture, schools have no way of effectively handling angry kids. And since Columbine they are scared ***** that it will turn into more than just angry words. The combination of these two factors leaves schools with the impression that they have to get rid of anything that might blow up in their face. More resources should be put to communicating with upset students, or watching trouble cases. However, most districts are stretched to the limit with the funds they have. NCLB doesn't help with that. - retral, on 10/12/2007, -14/+20If you read the whole article, it seems like an irrational kid who has a problem with authority. His postings are filled with anger/immature phrases. If I were doing a rant about my school, I wouldn't use vulgarity to do it. I would just do a mild rant about how we don't seem to have freedom of speech, and avoid using pseudo-threatening phrases like "stick that in your pipe and smoke it" and referring to columbine. Referring to columbine alone would sort of throw up a red flag for staffers, and it's a stupid/irrational thing to do.
- rohizzle121, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people.
-V - lexbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"If kids were more mature, and took the shirt as an expression, rather than a taboo statement to be gossiped about, this student's free speech would likely be left completely alone."
But if that happened on Digg, it would be pretty boring. - david76, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Press Release from the Superintendent:
Statement from Superintendent Dr. Harper: Online postings and discipline
http://www.learningcommunity202.org/Dist202/DistNews/0506/onlinepost.htm - alricsca, on 10/12/2007, -6/+12In response to the non-American where it was mentioned that just because are Constitution grants free speech does not mean that said speech does not have consequences. You are correct, but you are forgetting one thing. In the US public schools are state run institutions and thus are defacto agents of the state, therefore, they are indeed limited from restricting the speed of our citizens. That being said, the Supreme Court has said that within the context of classroom, school grounds, and its publications that the interest of not disrupting education and the right of other students not to be forced to experience speech they would otherwise choose not to that this speech can be limited. Outside school grounds, however, the issue in not the same and the school is fully limited by our Constitution. I would like to point out that not everyone thinks what he said was wrong or that it was incorrect and the act of punishing him for what he said strikes at the very heart of why we prevent the state from doing this as it creates fear in those who might want to otherwise speak out against injustice or oppression. To put it another way, how would you feel if he was complaining about was black people not being allowed to attend class? In the civil rights era I can assure in the US this student would have been punished much more harshly. In both cases not everyone agrees or disagrees with what the students had to say, it was simply not the right of the school as an agent of the state to interfere with him. Please do not mistake this freedom for a right to make threats which it is not, indeed the line can be thin as it is here. The problem is that as of late it seems saying anything that the schools do not like gets labled a threat just like the white house and the label terrorist. The terms are misused to the extreme.
- Norseman, on 10/12/2007, -5/+10Accept my humble one-finger salute. You don't have a right to be respected by people, neither does the government, deal with it. Respect is earned, and those who abuse their power don't deserve it.
- SolidGun1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11He was stating a fact, not threatening anyone.....
- jimmsta, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Y'know, I caught one of these types of bastards on one of my websites that I manage... as in, the school IP address was logged as attempting to hack into my shared hosting account, and gain control of the site. They had a couple users, specifically using the name "techsupport". I don't get how they couldn't figure it out that I wasn't running the server myself. Dreamhost is my host, and they have records of suspicious activity... My brother runs a blog on that server, and had problems where some of his wordpress articles were gone. Sure enough, the school had exploited some flaws in WP 2.0.0, and had gained control of the site to some degree.
The content that my brother had, was possibly infringing on something legal (audio recordings of his incompetent Latin Teacher, who has since been canned), but ended up putting it up as a password protected podcast, after such things were deleted from the blog.
I don't get how this is legal - these schools are going out of their way to ***** with people's personal webspace on the internet... Personally, I think they take the internet too seriously.... Internet - Serious Business! - benhorstmann, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Contact them and let them know what BS this is... DIGG EFFECT EM!
info@learningcommunity202.org - General
jharper@learningcommunity202.org - Superintendent
http://www.learningcommunity202.org/Dist202/OurDist/admin.htm
http://www.learningcommunity202.org/Dist202/OurDist/offhrs.htm
You could probably tweak the email addy per-officer. - xqb4dpx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6credit for having the balls to keep it online and not erasing the post
- UglyBunny, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7@ vesty
You're wrong. The kid was using the Columbine incident as an example to support his assertion that the school causes problems by bullying students. Sure he presented it inelegantly, but anyone with half a brain can see that he's just trying to support his argument, not threaten anyone. Think before you write. - SolidGun1, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10It is really too bad that the schools are not concerned with improving education for its students by teaching values that we hold dearly as Americans. Why teach the kids about the constitution, if they are not going to uphold it?
- uptown, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Pretty much every other time something like this has been challenged in courts the schools have ended up paying a chunk of money to the student. I expect this one will play out the same.
- skeptical1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4 "It is called protesting, something I think we have a right to do here in the US. "
Indeed. It's also the school's responsibility to address the protest in an unbiased investigation. Disciplinary action is definitely needed but often looked as a solution too quickly. I will also say that some argue that "too quickly" can cost lives. I think it's directly caused by the lack of haste in the first steps of solving an issue like this one. Talk to the students, and try to throw the whole intimidation factor out the window, until it's deemed necessary.
My $0.02 - windycityguy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I have a feeling these postings might disappear soon, so here's the original:
"dear plainfield school district 202:
i know you read this. and you suck. suspend me or what ever you would like to do. but this is my ***** web site and i can put what ever i want on it. kinda goes with the first amendment. by suspending kyle again for his xanga you guys are pathetic and totally irrational. first amendment you *****. freedom of speech. and who the ***** are you to say what some one can do from there own personal computer. one more thing kiss my ass.
edit: this one is for you, and yes i have drank it and yes it was delicious!(come get me)"
and the follow-up:
"you are bully's. I feel threatened by you. if you don't like what you see here then do not come here its that simple. I'm pretty sure when you suspended Sam you brought her to tears, you are a bully and you make me sick. there's nothing you can do about us posting about parties we've been to and how much liquor we had or how much pot was smoked, the police need to do a better job, you are not the police. and how is it that you feel threatened what was said that was so threatening. I feel threatened by you, I cant even have a public web page with out you bullying me and telling me what has to be removed. where is this freedom of speech that this government is sworn to uphold? none of this is posted at school, its all posted from our home computers, and once we step foot into our homes we are not on school property any more. you are just power hungry, don't you ever think? did you stop to think that maybe this will make parents angry that you are bullying their children around? did you ever stop to think that maybe now you really are going to have a threat on your hands now that you have just pissed off kids for voicing their opinions? did you ever stop to think this will start a community backlash? The kids at Columbine did what they did because they were bullied. In my opinion you are the real threat here. None of us ever put in our xanga's that they were going to kill or bring harm to any one. we voiced our opinions. you are the real threat here. you are depriving us of our right to learn. now stick that in your pipe and smoke it." -
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