What is Digg?114 Comments
- spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -9/+27@geterix:
this hasn't been before the courts - and that's the problem and essentially why everyone is in an uproar. this sort of thing isn't supposed to be able to happen without judicial approval (ie, a warrant), but the president is making controversial claims about his authority to create/approve such programs.
now, if you really are concerned about protecting america from terrorist threats, consider this:
our government was carefully crafted to implement and maintain a Balance of Powers (a la Executive, Legistlative, Judicial branches). if, in response to terrorist activities - or the percieved threat of terrorist activities - we allow the Executive branch to operate above the law, unchecked by the mechanisms written into the Constitution, well guess what...the terrorists win. end of story. you can kiss the america who's flag you've wrapped yourself in goodbye.
if, on the otherhand, we, as responsible citizens, tell our representatives, and hence the President himself, "No, we must insist our government abide by the law", then lo and behold, though it may be a long, arduous struggle, ultimately the terrorists will lose. - fintheman, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16"But Digg is turning into a leftist activist site more and more, so this type or tripe is going to reach the front page with greater ease."
Thats funny, I'm pretty sure that everyone is entitled to what they would like to say on here and digg.com does not stop people from posting their views on different subjects. Have you maybe thought, that your thinking is in the minority, that there are alot of people upset with this? They have good reason to be. I served in the USAF, and I'm fairly conservative on the issues, but I cannot and will not stand for this. I guess I'm just a lefty now because I disagree, is that the case? I was willing to shed my blood for my country and those rights that those "activist" are so screaming about. You know, the "freedoms" that everyone seems to hate. - jodokast, on 10/12/2007, -14/+24Geterix,
Just like republicans bring out the terrorism card when they can't think of anything else? - ByteGuerilla, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16Wow, Geterix. You surprise me. I didn't think fascists knew how to use the Internet. +block
- Saintlink, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11https://secure.eff.org/site/Advocacy?alertId=212&pg=makeACall&JServSessionIdr012=yr32hvgwi1.app6a
(This is the correct link.) - jdstorer2, on 10/12/2007, -6/+14Geterix just earned a block from me. I don't care if he was joking or not. While gathering intel on terrorist *could* be a way these NSA taps could be used, that's not how they *will* be used. Too many examples of our government taking advantage of the system to trust them now.
All this stuff about what the government is doing "behind our backs"... think it's time for a new government. Mod me down, I don't care. You know I'm right. - spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8That's good - though I completely disagree with your stance on this issue. But that's being a responsible citizen and using your Constitutional rights. For that I salute you.
- RCourtney, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@Geterix
Okay, solutions...
- Secure our borders: Approximately 1 million unauthorized persons enter the US per year ( warning-PDF: http://www.gao.gov/cgi-bin/getrpt?GGD-98-119 )
- Secure our ports: Only 4-5% of cargo entering the US is inspected ( http://democrats.senate.gov/dpc/dpc-new.cfm?doc_name=fs-108-2-237 )
Almost 5 years and neither of these have even been addressed let alone resolved. Why do you feel the need for our own government to spy on us (whether pen tapping our phone records or listening in on our conversations)? Because neither of the above issues has been taken care, at lest one of which allowed the 9/11 terrorists to get into our country in the first place.
As for what to do about anyone already in the country? You tell me what kind of failure that is, after nearly 5 years of rounding up every person they could rightly or wrongly accuse of terrorist links.
Address the root of the problem, not the symptoms. - Amaruca, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11I just confirmed that the NSA is engaged in private industry endorsements of security products. Next they will be SELLING your information to private companies under the guise of "National Security" .
Nice to be on the gravy train with companies like haliburton in charge.
Anyway, here's the direct link to the NSA endorsement page:
http://www.nsa.gov/ia/industry/tempest.cfm?MenuID=10.2.1.3 - spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8don't give up, man. that's what a government that doesn't care about the law wants you to do.
- kcmcgruff, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I served in the Army and think this program is quite simply unmitigated BS. There is not one valid reason any government can provide to allow me to give up my privacy rights. My phone calls to my daughter or mother are not linked to terrorism and should not be data mined. I do not care that they are claiming that my calls are not part of the mining and that my privacy is intact...I want them to tell me HOW they determined my calls are not an issue. In order to do that, they had to review the records of my calls, did they not? Ergo, privacy violated.
- JTMON, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Wow, you can read SalaciousCrumb, but you may not be able to interpret the law correctly, fortunately we have Judges to do that. There are laws dealing with this issue. The US Gov't. are not going by them. Even warrantless searches are covered under FISA, but again THEY ARE NOT going by that law either. They are going on the word of the president, who claims congress knew/knows all about it. Congress is pissed, sound like they knew about it? Maybe George's top Good Ol' Boys but that's about it.
Regardless of your legal research and subsequent non discovery, even the fact that you think it's law..and therefore correct or just in the way it is being used is appalling. Do you not have use of a history book. Have you researched any of the past problems we have had as a country when our government abuses its power. Is it OK for it to do so simply because a law is passed?
Ask yourself this: If they can essentially do the same thing (warrantless searches) UNDER FISA, why aren't they? Why are they going out of their way to avoid using a legit law, claiming Congress knew about everything, and spying on millions of Americans? Are you trying to tell me millions of Americans are guilty of terrorism? Oh, I see, you're saying that innocent until proven guilty can be thrown out the window whenever one of the stupidest presidents in US history thinks it up? Great idea! I'm with you! I'd like to extend an open invitation to come hunting with me sometime by the way. - spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@geterix
I believe I did give you a better idea. - Chopper3, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7It's irrelevant, the current government don't care about any laws - they'll do what they want anyway
- Godel, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9@getrix, fine if you don't like slavery look at The Civil Rights Cases, 109 U.S. 2 (1883) where the Supreme Court gutted the 13th and 14th amendment and made them inapplicable to private businesses, therby allowing 70 years of segregation. Or, if that's too long ago for you, look at Cotton Petroleum v. New Mexico, 490 U.S. 163 (1989) where the Supreme Court basically nullified the Indian Commerce Clause of the Constitution, thereby depriving the tribes of millions of dollars in oil revenues.
- kloud213, on 10/12/2007, -9/+14Geterix
Your a freaking moron, this is not a good thing. If we stand idol and let this happen the whole 20the century will be a waste. We have fought for freedom of ours and others peoples for long time. This violates the constitution in every sense, the president is and was never suppose to have this much power.
To everyone else we need to stand against this oppression and big brother *****. This is ridiculous, terrorist are using disposable cell phones I'm sure so they couldn't get found if anything like this happened. How is this protecting our freedoms, i say it's not. The more freedom they strip away, the less of a "democracy" we become.
Empower the people, Damn the goverment - spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6@timmclargehuge
admittedly, i'm no expert on The Law. however, as i understand them, the current issues in the press, and the current suits filed by the ACLU, the EFF and others, are in regard to DOMESTIC surveillance activities. all of the cases you cite above refer to foreign intelligence gathering. FISA 1978 explicitly allows such activities against "foreign powers", and explicitly disallows such activities when applied against domestic agents:
The President may authorize, through the Attorney General, electronic surveillance without a court order for the period of one year provided it is only for foreign intelligence information [2a]; targeting foreign powers as defined by 50 U.S.C. 1801(a)(1),(2),(3) [4] or their agents; and there is no substantial likelihood that the surveillance will acquire the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party.[5]
that being said, it's clear, vis a vis the recent uproar both among the public and our elected representatives, the boat hasn't come in on the legality of the NSA's activities or the President's assertion that it is within his authority to approve them. that is what the EFF is hoping we, as citizens, will insist that Congress take the time to find out. that is how government in a free society has to work. that is what we HAVE to protect. otherwise, we lose, no matter whether you believe the actions of the President or the NSA were justified or not. - ByteGuerilla, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Depends on which of us is the best at lying, I guess.
- tHePeOPle, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8If you're looking for a reason to rob the citizenry of civil liberties, then yes. We're also at war with drugs. That's been a pretty successful war as well.
- infra172, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6With your choice of mayor I'm happy you don't.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -7/+10ByteGuerilla and Wraithrealm -
How ironic is that? Block Geterix because you don't like what he's saying? That's classic. I thought you were fighting for the freedom of speech?
Everybody say what state you live in so I can make sure enough responsible and clear-headed Americans send letters to their congressmen to negate your chicken little mentality. - nicerobot, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@ByteGuerilla
Remember, one of the great things about this Country is that even idiots like Geterix have a right to be idiots.
Democracy will fail when the majority are uneducated or feared into submission. If Geterix and his kind prefer to live under a dictator, let them have that opinion. But it's against the law in America.
@Geterix
If you want to burn the U.S. Constitution, "You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands". - spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4False. If our government is worth a damn, it's because the people still have the power to 1) Believe what they wish and do so publicly, 2) To tell the government that its activities are not in accordance with society's best interests, 3) Use the courts and the electorate to overcome bad laws and bad politicians. If that ceases to be true, then at best we live under an oligarchy, at worst a tyranny. If you don't wish to live under a government BY the people, then by all means, tell the NSA they can have all the information they wish without judicial approval.
- actionscripted, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5No guarantee on the letter -- it all depends on how motivated your congressman is. I know that the general response is a confirmation letter from his/her office.
- tHePeOPle, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@djfelix
I hate the thought that MY CIVIL RIGHTS are possibly in the hands of people who think like you. Your 2/3 number was based on a statistically inaccurate poll and the questions were horribly leading, not neutral. They polled less than half of they people they should have. But hey, you use whatever "evidence" you can to avoid reality. Just like the current administration. - Nyghtewynd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5As soon as all of you computer geeks promise to quit being able to plug phone numbers into the Internet to get names and addresses (which is a much worse breach of privacy), I'll send your little letter. But I'd imagine that (a) cleaning your own house is something you're not very interested in, and (b) it's a lot easier to whine about something and mod down the comments with which you don't agree.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7@fsnuffer:
It really doesn't matter if you served in the USAF or not - under no circumstances should citizens' rights to privacy be removed just to root out "Terrorists".
There's something called due process, and whether you're a "terrorist" or not, it has to be followed. If you can't acquire the intel you need by legal means, then, to put it bluntly, tough *****.
You served in the military - someone who works hard and took a pledge to protect and defend your country and our freedoms - yet you approve of this? Whether you agree with it or not, you're indirectly ***** where you eat. Sorry, but I think you're a bad seed. - Travelsonic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Yeah, stand up and say no to your governments ability to track down and neutralize terrorist activity before it starts. Go ahead. "
Ok, how many terrorists did wiretapping and all this stop as of late? How many terrorist cells were busted, how many plans thwarted? If it is being touted as being for national security, shoulsdn't they be telling us of certain successes this has done if it is in fact truthful? - deepsub, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5"Difference is, with Bush's deal, the other party is actually OUTSIDE of the US, making it international spying..
you people sound like morons calling it domestic."
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&q=domestic+phone+calls
"NSA has database of domestic phone calls
Daily Times, Pakistan - May 11, 2006
... in charge of a US domestic spying programme has been secretly collecting phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, including calls made within the ...
Phone records furor York Dispatch"
"NSA has massive database of Americans’ phone calls
Detroit Free Press, United States - May 11, 2006
... The government is collecting “external” data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting ”internals,” a term for the actual content of the ... "
"US Has Biggest Database of Domestic Phone Calls
Focus News, Bulgaria - May 11, 2006
... NSA) in charge of a domestic spying program has been secretly collecting phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, including calls made within the ... "
"The 4-1-1 on domestic phone surveillance
Kansas City Star, MO - May 12, 2006
... reportedly have given the government the domestic call records ... Agency could have a history of your phone’s use ... not your name or what you said in your calls. ... "
"Federal government's domestic phone records database revealed
49abcnews.com, KS - 22 hours ago
... been keeping records on millions of phone calls made in ... to "USA Today," the calls of about ... in President Bush's controversial NSA domestic eavesdropping program ... "
Let's see... domestic. Check
Phone calls... Check...
What was that about sounding like an idiot? - deepsub, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@pr3z00
Without a doubt we are headed straight for some kind of dictatorship. 9/11 was the 'phantom menace' to grab additional powers for the presidency -with intent- to vest enough power in the presidency to pursue it's international agenda w/o worrying about what is lawful. Half of Bush's crew are greedy gluttunous bastards that happen to be self righteous Jesus freaks(==Bush thinks he has been chosen by God) , and the other half are bitter about Watergate -and- JFK beating Nixon in 1960. The left out one detail in their own planning, however.
You need to be competent to pull something like this off, and as is apparent to many, they are not competent.
@Tommstein
Some believe that since the government had data that could've been used to stop the 9/11 attacks that the executive branch was complicit in 9/11. Bush recieved a report 1 month before. The NSA had telephone records showing frequent phone calls between the attackers, including attackers that had been reported to be training for pilot training in Arizona by an FBI feild office (who was rebuffed). Moussoui's laptop was in the hands of the FBI weeks before 9/11.
The polticians blame beauracracy, but the real accountability lies with law enforcement, which is the executive branch. Where was Bush the month before 9/11? At his ranch shooting fish in a barrel with Harriet Meyers.
If they couldn't do anything with so much conneted intelligence then, how could they do anything with more information now? As anyone with a pulse can tell you, the feds have demonstrated less competence over time since 2001, not more. - cryptodecker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2So Nixon got impeached because he got caught wiretapping a few Americans. And now we are going to give the President (Not even just this one, but future Presidents) the chance to wiretap everyone?
Who all realizes that this is a violation of our Constitutional rights? Unlawful search and seizure anyone? Lets try to forget that the terrorists need to come into this country in the first place, or the fact that there are literally thousands of other ways to secure our homestead, but instead, lets just ignore this little piece of paper call the Constitution, that the basis of our ENTIRE COUNTRY was built upon.
IF YOU ARE NOT OUTRAGED, THEN YOU ARE NOT EDUCATED ENOUGH TO VOTE! - kloud213, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Geterix
Most Americans are ignorant to most of what is actually going on. I'm not gonna sit here and argue that I'm right and your wrong. All i have to say is I'm not a kid, and i have my opinions. I voted for bush by the way but I didn't think he was going to do something like take our security in his own hands without consulting with the courts or even congress. I feel what i did was a huge mistake. This country is turning into a police state at war in the second Vietnam. Sorry for calling you a moron but politics can be a touchy subject for most. - Travelsonic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3When you figure out (fabricate an excuse) as to how 10s of millions of people could be suspects and make a good lie about it.
Oh, and Geterix - why did you have to make so many posts? Your posts can be edited, allowing you to add whatever you forgot - unless you are in fact just trolling. - kyodi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's not what we would or would not have to hide, its the idea of being spied on. You probably have nothing to hide by cooking eggs in the morning, but would you want the government watching tape of it??? Same way I have nothing to hide by calling to order a pizza. But those who founded this country, and those who fought to keep it free, never intended for the government to spy on it's citizens "just incase they are against us". If they had some dirt on someone and they wanted that person's records....fine and dandy. But I have lived here all my 26 years, love my country, and would be the first person at the shoreline if there were boats incomming. So them paying someone to sit and figure out I call the local pizza place, my girlfriend/brothers/friends, and my parents is a waste of that person's time and our tax dollars. So that is why we are up in arms about this abuse of power. Sure they may catch one or two people (I'm being generous with those numbers), but for the most part innocent citizens are being spied on in the name of national security.
- spirituscanis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Hmmm, sounds like the kind of despotism that Tom Jefferson and Ben Franklin and the boys tried so hard to protect us from. So rather than speak out and move for change, we just lay down and take it? No, at the very least, I will speak my mind.
- pr3z00, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If they had the rights:
Why was the NSA willing to pay for the information and privileges, wasn't this suppose to be a matter of national security?
Why was the NSA refusing to take the issue to FISA, which is capable of being discrete?
Why did Qwest refuse and a couple of months later their CEO was indicted for insider trading?
Makes you think! - fsnuffer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5@badbox
That was the point of my post, I know it doesn't matter that I served in the USAF. It just rubs me the wrong way when people drop that fact like it makes their opinion more worthy. It is a privilege to serve but in the end I still get one vote in November just like everyone else.
EDIT: Unless you are in Ohio where 7 out of 10 dead people vote Democratic - thezisme, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Called my senators... Ironically, both of their voicemail accounts were full!
- Godel, on 10/12/2007, -8/+10I completely agree, no president in history has ever done anything to earn the people's distrust, so there's no reason to think that this one isn't completely trustworthy either. I'm proud to be living in a country where I can feel completely secure because I know that there is no way our government would ever do anything wrong.
- evilempire, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4I don't have a congressman :(
-Washington DC - traveler19, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Some may think "this is no big deal" but you have to look at the whole picture. Why would a president want our information and use this much power yet allow millions of illegal immigrants flood into america daily with no pressure to stop it. Sure he's mentioned not wanting this to happen, but has not stepped up to the plate to stop it. Now take that and add everything else thats happening: the war, oil, outsourcing. What is really going on??? I feel as if he is the terrorist.
- Saintlink, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Don't forget the War on Drugs, War on Bad Schools, War on Piracy, War on Terror...
Whoops, we already mentioned that one! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4ZOMG! Phone Records + Illegal Immigrants + War + Oil + Outsourcing = ZIONIST CONSPIRACY!
Run everyone!! The Illuminati is coming for us! - Saintlink, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Your chest thumping makes you look smart. Really smart.
By the way, it is spelled "Americans", not "Amewicans".
Bravo, you win the prize and a blocked user status. - RCourtney, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@DrAegoon
I agree both suggestions should only be part of a more comprehensive plan. What I suggested was by no means the end-all argument, but simply a good starting point and example of important things which do need to be addressed which I believe would be a first line of defense against needing the solutions being used today.
I also agree wiretaps can be an important tool in tracking both domestic and terrorist criminals - when done within the intended framework of the law and protecting the privacy and liberties of US citizens and not abusing the information gained or expanding the scope of obtaining information, all of which have proven detrimental in the past.
From the 911 Commissions report:
"We found that as many as 15 of the 19 hijackers were potentially vulnerable to interception by border authorities. Analyzing their characteristic travel documents and travel patterns could have allowed authorities to intercept 4 to 15 hijackers and more effective use of information available in U.S. government databases could have identified up to 3 hijackers."
and
"Because they were deemed not to be bona fide tourists or students as they claimed, five conspirators that we know of tried to get visas and failed, and one was denied entry by an inspector. We also found that had the immigration system set a higher bar for determining whether individuals are who or what they claim to be-and ensuring routine consequences for violations-it could potentially have excluded, removed, or come into further contact with several hijackers who did not appear to meet the terms for admitting short-term visitors."
Securing our borders does not mean closing our borders. The no-fly list is a semi-good example of that. It helps to identify those who shouldnt be here while allowing those who should to be here. That was one loop-hole the terrorists exploited that we did not think enough about to make it a priority. It has been closed mostly now. If you're a terrorist in this day and see that thousands of people cross our border each day without much trouble... wouldn't you consider that an overlooked, exploitable loop-hole now that the 'legal' loop-holes have been identified and address?
Furthermore, in all my searching and reading, and with hind-sight being 20/20 and the timeline leading up to 9-11 being well known now, I've yet to hear anyone besides Bush and Hayden say the type of domestic intelligence we are gathering today could have preventing 9-11. Or that it has prevented another terrorist attack since, though I do recognize that it may have, and due to secrecy we have not been informed of that yet.
But I firmly believe that giving up our freedoms, privacy, and liberties in general only serves to accomplish the goals of the terrorists - to terrorize us and remove that which sets America apart from the world they know.
I appreciate your intelligent, reasoned response :) - DrAegoon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4@RCourtney
Which of your solutions would have prevented 9-11? The hijackers entered the country legally. You aren't proposing we cut off ALL immigration are we?
Both of the solutions you proposed should be important components of an overall counter-terrorism strategy, but neither of them can take the place of the intelligence a wiretap could provide. Most of the hijackers broke no law before the actual hijacking. When this is the case the only way to stop such an attack is to know about it before hand.
I understand that people are afraid of the possible abuses of the various NSA programs that have come to light recently. What I don't understand is the desire to outlaw the tool of communications intelligence because of the potential for abuse. It's like outlawing VCRs because they might be used for copyright infringement. The NSA needs to be able to intercept targeted conversations between people within the US and agents of a foreign power. If the current legal framework does not support this it needs to be modified so it does. - cryptocom, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3OH yeah, and btw, your telco companies have been doing this type of data mining for years now. How do you think they know what regions to target with certain marketing schemes.
- pr3z00, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Enter the machine, this is all part of a plan to completely control the white house, and another reason why the Democrats never seem to win (All their campaign plans are already known), the voting machines have been hacked to bits, etc... it's a lot deeper than you think. Open your eyes, because the writting is on the wall.
- pr3z00, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3http://www.thankyouqwest.org/
- pr3z00, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3The point here is not why are they spying on the American citizens but does the American constitution still have any value since the Govt is now a law unto themselves. In other words is America now in a despotism era?
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