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53 Comments
- smcavoy, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18you're nucking futs.
I'm no defender of the US government but... there is no comparison between China and the US when it comes to human rights abuse/censorship/etc. - Elohir, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12True, yet, it is still their choice. If Symantec slaughtered virgins daily in a square in Beijing because it was forced to by Chinese law, would you let them rub their hands and say 'Hey dont look at us, thats the price of doing business in China!'?
Just because does something for the sake of the almighty dollar does not mean they are above criticism for what they do. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+15So which other western companies want to bend over and take it from the Chinese government?
Just another example that 'ethics' and 'business' are rarely part of the same package deal. - RetroRufio, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11I'm all about international relations, but the Chinese government is really starting to piss me off. I truely feel sorry for those who must liver under the tyranny plaguing that country.
- yish, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9yeah, but none have stooped as low as Yahoo, who activly helps the Chinese prosecute and chail polotical activists.
http://boohoo.wikispaces.com - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11At the end of the day, if any company wants to operate in The People's Republic of China or any country, they must obey the local law.
- feenikz4180, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5We have already seen Google bowing the Chinese laws...... Skype, is no surprise.
- Iceduck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4It just seems so bizarre that university students are unaware of some of the important parts of their country's history that their government has censored, yet they talk happily on their Nokia phones and drive in their VW cars.
Also, given the nature of the internet, I'm pretty sure it will be impossible for them to censor all illegal material at some point. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Companies have bowed to the US before. This is no different. I'm pissed that a company is bowing to ANY government who's ethics are not in agreement with the company. PayPal is an example of what happens to a company after they bow to the government.
- dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7You know, if I ran a company that wanted to operate over in China, I'd be willing to bend over and take it since it's a potential 1 billion customers...
- Tsuroerusu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You know what we need? We need a Peer-To-Peer instant messaging system that has no central server at all, with some hairy-ass encryption!
- erichola, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Now,
Skype is under eBay ( monitored by the US gov.? ).
Skype listens to The People's Republic of China (not Hong Kowng or Taiwan).
I think it's time to switch to another one like Gizmo?
http://gizmoproject.com/index.html
I just want to have a little privacy. It's a basic instict of human.
I want to say " I love you! " to my lover without someone's monitoring. - kabronkline, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3These companies do not represent liberty, they represent profit.
- augapfel, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I happen to live in China, by choice actually as I'm American and Caucasian. For the most part censorship doesn't actually affect daily life here. People talk about what they want and do what they want. Americans seem more concerned about the Chinese people's freedom of speech than the Chinese do. With that being said I find it slightly obnoxious to use the Internet here. blogger.com is totally blocked as is blogspot.com and typepad.com and wordpad.com and a host of other sites, that doesn't mean it's not possible to get to those places here, just more difficult. If you really want to do something about free speech here, support organizations like anonymouse.org. They actually provide a way for us to get around government censorship.
- TheWalkingDude, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Cryptome CN publishes information, documents and opinions banned by the People's Republic of China.
http://www.cryptome.cn/ - csansbury, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7Exactly right...they have to bend over and take it from the US government. Both countries have apalling records in privacy, and human rights. It's just the way of the world of today. We don't, Google don't, and Skype don't, have much choice.
- linkwray, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3From the Congressional hearings on a nearly identical subject a few months ago (source: Fortune magazine. Author: Marc Gunther)
' U.S. Rep. Chris Smith, who chaired the House subcommittee hearing, compared the tech company's actions to IBM's collaboration with Nazi Germany during World War II. Smith, a New Jersey Republican, dismissed the claim by firms that they have to obey local laws.
"If the secret police a half century ago asked where Anne Frank was hiding, would the correct answer be to hand over the information in order to comply with local laws?" Smith asked. "We must stand with the oppressed, not the oppressors."
U.S. Rep. Tom Lantos, a California Democrat and a Holocaust survivor, was even sharper in his attacks.
"Your abhorrent activities in China are a disgrace," Lantos told the tech executives. "I simply do not understand how your corporate leadership sleeps at night." '
Yeah, yeah, I know..."Godwin's Law" and all...but in this case it is very relevant. Yahoo has already helped the Chinese government put away dissident Shi Tao for 10 years. - AnalogDaylight, on 10/12/2007, -12/+14Bottom Line, China has 1 billion + potential customers for any company. As opposed to America and our 300 million. If you run a business, you want Chinas business. And to compare our ethics to theirs when we have recently invaded a country on the pretense of nuclear weapons when in actuality, none were there. We routinely arrest american citizens that we "suspect" may be terrorist and hold them without due council. Recently a young college student was held for several weeks at an airport for carrying sugar, which supposedly resembles an illegal substance. As a matter of fact, Chinas gonvernment is starting to not sound so bad.
- thecookie, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I think the topic is misspelled.
It should read, "Skype Bends Over for Chinese Laws". - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It makes a pretty clear example of:
Which do you value more: Liberty or $$$ ?
The principles America was founded on, has fought for, or $$$ ?
Once you start making excuses to conveniently forget what you claim to hold most dear and take the $$$, it's a race to the bottom. - dignon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1*moved*
- niiru, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Don't skype allow encrypted audio chat? or have they given the chinese govt some sort of key to that?
- dignon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1These companies DO directly have a hand in it: http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16402
If they are willing to capitulate for a known totalitarian regiem, how can we trust what they are providing for us? Do you think they are going tell us when they are censoring or altering our information? Do you think we are treated differently just because we aren't in China? Obviously, the people mean nothing to them. If there is enough money to do so, or perhaps our own government covertly requires it of them, they have demonstrated that they will do it.
If companies want to lend a hand in the imprisionment, torture, and killing of innocent people simply trying to gain knowledge, improve their living conditions, or spreading democracy then I don't see why we should support those companies. They are fundamentally undermining democracy. By not providing these services to China they would be keeping China at a technological disadvantage to the rest of the world. Sure, China could try to develop their own services but ultimately we all know that an open and competative marketplace will outperform a closed monopoly. Why should we give them the technology to continue their oppression of their citizens? Its completely ridiculous. - kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Right. Silly words like "Democracy" and "Liberty" and "Human Rights" and "Torture"
That is all they are to you, Jack, silly words, certainly not worth losing a few dollars over.
But me, I remember when America used to be the good guy... not the sellout. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Portuguese: http://www.htk.com.br/noticia.php?noticia=541
- kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Russia imploded, in large part, because they ran out of money. Right now the Chinese don't have that problem...
- dignon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This is absolute *****. I'm sick of these greedy $%#%# executives sacrificing BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE in their pursuit of the almighty dollar and then washing the blood off their hands by saying "we're just following local laws". That is complete *****. Innocent people are BEING KILLED because of these policies by western companies. This is no different than when IBM was selling and supporting the Nazi's during WWII. These companies should not be allowed to operate in western countries if they choose to actively support totalitarian regiems. Full stop, period. Skype, Google, Yahoo, Microsoft -- that means you.
- AnalogDaylight, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7I'm not sure if you heard, but when you run a business in a country, you tend to have to follow the laws of that country. Simply because your company was started in the United States, does not mean you only have to follow Us Law. If this were the case, Microsoft wouldn't be getting fined millions of dollars per day by the European union.
- Paroparo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3If they don't bend over, then their competitors will be glad to do so and reap the profits. One of the main problems with the current economical system.
- rv8ch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Many commercials in Europe feature naked women. The laws in the US require that they not show ***** in commercials, so these companies adjust their business practices to comply with the local country's laws. What's different about skype doing the same when they go into business in China?
- dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3No person who voted for the war in Iraq should be called an American and and no person who voted for Bush should be called an American since they are supporting state-sponsered terrorism.
And isn't the dollar the most important thing to Americans and capitalists? Or is it invading countries that posed no threat to us? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Portuguese: http://www.htk.com.br/noticia.php?noticia=541
- Elohir, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5niiru: Oh get a censor humour.
- chicksdigme, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Foreign companies that do wish to operate in the US need to follow US laws too. Stop bitching and stop being egocentric, morons.
Ppl keep talking about the Chinese gov. Please remember, the Chinese gov has not invaded Iraq and Vietnam. Guess who did. You violent mofos!!! - rvalles, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Like such degrees of censorship were needed to keep people from thinking...
I've recently submitted an interesting story on a related topic.
"...This project began as a bit of practical industrial psychology, and ended up unfolding into an understanding of how most people in most human societies have a consistently distorted view of everything...." - Alan G Carter
http://www.digg.com/science/The_Reciprocality_Project - knupso, on 10/12/2007, -9/+9Dude you are an idiot comparing China to the US.
See here you have the right to talk bad about the Goverment and we don't give you the Tiananmen square treatment.
Stupid ultra leftist douche, just as ***** dumb as the ultra right wing conservatives. - protiek, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Never seen any ***** in UK ads?
- kearns, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Evil empire!
- CygnusX1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Americans seem more concerned about the Chinese people's freedom of speech than the Chinese do."
That is so true. It's basically a boiled down attitude of, what we have is better than what you have and therefore what you have is wrong, mentality. The reason why most countries scoff at Americans. We assume that since we are so happy with our "freedoms" that it must be the best way and the only way to obtain perfect happiness. We have freedoms. That's great. *thumbs up*
The people living in these countries live day to day playing with the cards they are dealt. Sure some of the laws might be a little constricting but they are alive, being with family, most with food on the table. What it all comes down to is making life more "fair". But life isn't fair. No matter how many freedoms you have.
We should be focusing more on countries where people are starving, sick and uncared for, who have NO choice but to stay where they are and die. People in China have the option to eat. They may not be afforded every civil liberty but they aren't dying in famine. If Google or in this case Skype went over to Ethiopia and the price of doing business was to not help the starving people eat, that would be a different story. They're not though. They're succumbing to censorship laws.
We as Americans succumb to censorship laws every time we pay 50+ dollars for cable tv and watch anything. But that's just the cost of entertainment. No complaints here about the FCC and how they play parent to kids whose parents do nothing but complain that the media is forcing sex, drugs and profanity down their kids throats. How about, control your kids.
"If the secret police a half century ago asked where Anne Frank was hiding, would the correct answer be to hand over the information in order to comply with local laws?" Smith asked. "We must stand with the oppressed, not the oppressors."
Please. You are making it out to be like these companies are killing small children, chopping them up and selling the parts. They have no blood on their hands. China's law that these companies are following is an exaggeration of the standards the FCC uses. While I deplore what Yahoo was responsible for we cannot forget that the US government can request the same thing of any of the ISPS, Email providers etc., to obtain information about "potential terrorists" and detain the parties involved to determine so not 10 years but...indefinitely. At least Shi Tao knows when he's getting out.
And who's oppressed here? How are these people being oppressed by their lack of more information? Suppressed would probably be a better description of what's happening here. Sure it may sound like I’m making light of the situation by using a lighter hearted word, but on that same token I’m sure using "oppressed" to describe what's happening to China's people probably instills a stronger feeling.
*continues to mumble to himself* - mrpackrat42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You know, I think you're the only one in this thread who thought of that. Skype claims that all it's communications are encrypted. Voice calls, text messages, file transfers, everything. If they're filtering text messages based on keywords, then there's either a back door in the encryption, or the Chinese get different client software that filters before sending. The important question, to my mind, is "Can they do the same thing in other countries?"
- ggudggid, on 10/12/2007, -4/+3So is the almighty dollar worth it? That's the real question. Are you willing to submit to China and their regime for the dollar. Is the dollar the most important thing in your life?
- thatsiebguy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Now had the Chinese government said they should get a back door into all Skype communications, then perhaps I would have a problem, but a text filter for some silly words doesn't bother me.
- jogo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0> It makes a pretty clear example of:
> Which do you value more: Liberty or $$$ ?
> The principles America was founded on, has fought for, or $$$ ?
Actually the principles that America was founded on was based on $$$. Remeber the whole, "no taxation without representation?" We just didn't want to give $$$ to England. - infonography, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4China will change when it gets around to it. Sorry to burst many bubbles here on the net. But our harping about censorship from the last remaining Communist Superpower means nothing. They just watched the USSR shatter into tiny fragments. They have reason to be scared. Western culture and ideas are starting to seep into Chinese society anyway. Let them have their little blocks against slogans.
- Matteos, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"liver under the tyranny"
Does that come with onions? - CygnusX1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0These companies are not sacrificing anything for anyone. The countries have done that already. They have no clout when it comes to motivating long term governmental practices and it's not their job to do so. Their job is to promote a product. Why not contact the people who are employed to care about that and ask them why they aren't doing their job? Either that or push your efforts towards big tobacco or someone who's business practices directly effect the lives of others. Blocking search results and certain textual topics doesn't effect people who don't have access to it anyways and certainly doesn't kill them.
- kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1Anyone who would trade their freedom of speech, press, assembly, association, any of these for a few dollars doesn't deserve to be called an American.
Anyone who would turn in pro-Democracy demonstrators to an opressive regime in exchange for money (eg: Yahoo ) doesn't deserve to do business in the US. - MikeHinds, on 10/12/2007, -8/+6"And to compare our ethics to theirs when we have recently invaded a country on the pretense of nuclear weapons when in actuality, none were there."
There was NO "pretense". Al Gore, John Kerry and Bill Clinton all were in agreement with the administration that the available intelligence indicated significant likelihood of the existence of WMD in Iraq. Saddam's consistent, belligerent refusal to allow inspections did nothing to suggest otherwise.
I'll put our ethics and human rights treatment up against Red China, North Korea, and ANY of the "stans" any day, any time. Since when is sleep deprivation and a few obscure undies over the head in any way comparable to televised beheading? - Elohir, on 10/12/2007, -9/+6d4l4i l4m4 > f4lun g0ng >_< kekekeke
- dontbejack, on 10/12/2007, -8/+5***** the ethical issues since the US has committed crimes that are just as bad: Native Americans? Yea, we killed them. Asian Americans? Yea, we shoved them into the middle of the country for a unconfirmed fear. Slaves? Yea, we had them longer than any other industrialized nation, and we then stuck it to those enslaved and didn't allow them basic rights for another 100 years after we "freed" them. We've done things that are just as bad or even worse than the Chinese.
It's a potential 1 billion people using your product. That's 1/6 of the population of the world. The US will never get to that proportion. I would be more than willing to bow to the Chinese government and their laws in order to reach all those potential customer. -
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