What is Digg?243 Comments
- ymerej, on 10/12/2007, -5/+118"My main concern was they were focusing on trying to transcribe every word that was I saying, rather than thinking and analyzing," Entman said Monday. "The computers interfere with making eye contact. You've got this picket fence between you and the students."
As an instructor, I get this impression from time to time from my students. It's frustrating that they're trying to copy my words down as if they were the law of the land, when in truth, my words are meaningless conduits that I'm using to try to pass along the larger issues/objectives as hand.
But when I was a student, I remember doing the exact same thing. It wasn't until long after the classes were over and I was thinking about the lecture that I had my greatest revelations about the subject at hand. In that case, taking word-for-word notes helped -- it committed things to my memory that I'd be able to fully digest later. It was impossible for me to take in every key point and fully analyze it DURING lecture, so I just tried to keep up as much as I could.
However, I agree with this professor for one reason alone -- my attention dropped off severely whenever I had my laptop with me to a class. It helped me to take notes quicker, but oh god clicking on Internet Explorer was just too tempting. - sbougerolle, on 10/12/2007, -9/+58Banning laptops from her classes hardly makes this professor a Luddite. Too many people (especially students) seem to think simply throwing technology at education will make it work better. There are lots of cases where gadgets are just not appropriate or helpful, and it's not hard to picture a law class being one of them.
- Lewie, on 10/12/2007, -10/+54Do what one of my professors does:
Print out (or have your students print out) your PowerPoint notes. To encourage attendance, you can leave key words blank, so they fill them in during lecture with your master PowerPoint presentation. That way we can follow along, mostly listening to the professor, and write down OTHER noteworthy information as it is presented.
It works well for the professor I have (I've taken 3 of his classes; he is funny and brilliant, which seems to help memorization).
Laptops are not needed in the classroom. They only provide noise and distraction. If the professor is boring, leave. - mightymouse, on 10/12/2007, -13/+43I personally think that writing notes is more distracting than typing them. I write slowly, and my writing looks like poo. And so while I'm trying to copy her notes down, I'm ignoring what she's saying- while if I type it (which is basically something I can do with my eyes closed), I have time to listen to what she's saying and to add things where necessary and to keep my notes neat at the same time.
My university is 75% covered with full wifi- and so many kids go on the interweb during class and do weird stuff. But most kids actually look at info from articles and follow along with prof's references to news and stuff. The problem is I see kids using laptops in math and stuff, which I didn't know is even possible or helpful. So yea, as long as its in the appropriate class (i.e. law and poli sci, and arts courses), it should be fine. - ahhell, on 10/12/2007, -10/+26Laptops in the classroom would be annoying. All that tappy tappy and clicky clicky.
She does have valid points...that doesn't make her a Luddite. - vann, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18Here's the thing about note-taking. They're notes, not dictations! If you actually need to be typing at 60wpm to "take notes" then you're taking too many notes.
It really does work better if you follow along with the professor, ask questions, and takes notes as a way of emphasizing important information. - Drahknon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15Perhaps for undergrad, but law school is a different matter. They use the socratic method, which necessitates calling on students and questioning them so the whole class can learn from the exchange. If students are constantly distracted, you get a professor calling on student after student who "isn't ready" or "wasn't listening." It severely impinges upon the class discussion.
- spudge, on 10/12/2007, -8/+19I had a professor ban laptops from the classroom this year. We had to take notes by hand and turn them in (?!) on test day. Unfortunately I lost my notebook, yet on my laptop I still have archived class notes from 8 years ago.
- Agent_M, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12Agreed. I am an I.T. student with a laptop and when there are no powerpoints available before class, like for a history course, I found that I was typing a lot but not really getting the full value of the lecture. My solution actually involved my laptop... I just recorded the lectures so that I could replay them at a later time, and still have detailed notes.
In other courses where laptops are pretty much mandatory, a lot of people are distracted, but that's no surprise really, is it. - Brak710101, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11Pfft. noobs. Who takes notes anymore? I just record it on my laptops mic, and just listen to the professor the whole time.
Allthough I would love to be in this professors class, imagine the possibilitys with pen and paper.
Yell "ARGH! Its crashed! I lost everything!" Hold up a paper with large eraser smudge. hehe - assimil8or, on 10/12/2007, -8/+16The prof maks eye contact with students?
The students use Internet Explorer?
what kind of a school is that? =) - SyvanX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I've always wanted to bring my laptop to classes, but I know it's going to be distracting to me and the notes i take won't fit well into a text document. Even the other laptops in class are distracting to me.
My favorite classes are the ones where the powerpoint is downloadable. Then I can just take minor notes on sheets, don't have to lug my laptop around and have access to nearly the entire presentation. - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12Notes are chicken scratch... If you can type and quickly make lists etc it doesn't mean you are writing word for word. The actual organization of the notes real-time helps you consume it better. She is an old Jedi that used pen and paper, the tools of today are digial, the new Jedi. I woudl be pissed if I had to take notes because I can't decipher the context, the chicken scratch factor and moving things around. I would be pissed to, peope have different methods, I actually usedt to doodle as well during notes because it helped me tune into the message better. Forcing ways of learning is the wrong way to teach, you should be taught to find a method and do it.
- bugmenot3, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Well, let me describe what I see in most of the lecture halls at the university I attend. I typically try to sit in the back of the classes as there are often larger rows there so I can stretch out a bit. This has the added advantage of being able to look out over everyone else. What I see in an average class are 20% people with laptops taking notes, 20% of people with laptops working on other things, 20% of people with laptops browsing the Internet, 20% of people with laptops doing other unrelated stuff like watching videos, 20% of people without laptops or not using them.
Personally I take better notes with my laptop but that's because my handwriting stinks and is slow. Of course with wifi in every building on campus it's very easy to simply stop paying attention and jump on the net or do something else. Especially if the lecture is boring. - puffarthur, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I second that. At my med school we have a student run service that audio records every lecture, and every student must take turns writing notes on lectures and sharing them with the class. Makes learning a heck of a lot easier. Oh, and laptops are required.
- Sazime, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9I don't use a calculator in most of my algebra classes. And what do I suffer? I learn how to use basic math effectively. I think it's a good idea.
- donte, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Let's also not kid ourselves. For every student in there taking notes on a laptop, there's at least one using it to do homework for another class or goofing off with it. It wasn't too long ago that it was me in those seats and I was as guilty as anyone. It's also distracting to the other students who are trying to pay attention using the "analog" means. Nothing was more annoying than trying to pay attention as you hear "clickedy clickedy clickedy" from the chair next to you for an hour.
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's been mentioned once so far, but it's worth mentioning again.
This was a _discussion based_ law class. Not _lecture based_. Verbatim note taking is totally inappropriate in that sort of class. - eadnams, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5She has a point... When I was in class, I would be on MSN, surfing the web, doing all kinds of things what were not taking notes. I still took notes, but I know my attention was divided more when I had the laptop. Then again, at the same time, when I was in german, I could look language stuff up very quickly... Problem is, it too multiple-use of a tool to guarantee its being helpful, especially with slackers like me :P
- myheaditches, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6This is college, not highschool. People are paying large amounts of money to go to college, if they want to goof off during class then so be it, their grades will reflect it.
- emlprime, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Amusingly, I never took notes in class. I was like the bird that lives in the Crocodile's mouth. Other, more responsible students, would take meticulous notes. I would sit, and listen to the prof. I'd make eye contact. I'd ask questions and debate. I'd draw on other people's questions and explore the implications. By not being concerned with copying down words, I could free my mind to engage the topic in the class. Later on, I'd always get invited to study sessions because I could deliver the sense of the conversation better than anyone else. It was symbiotic because the students who studied with me gained a greater understanding and I gained the value of their stenography.
I don't devalue the importance of notes, but I don't think it's impossible for everyone to absorb ideas on the fly from a good lecture. I would challenge the prof to make the lecture dynamic enough that rote copying doesn't make sense. Engage the class in discussion. Have physical examples. I know some of the best learning in a large class took place when we were forced to literally vote with our feet and debate from ends of the room. - Drahknon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8I actually don't see the irony. She's not saying they should never use laptops or screaming "down with technology!" or anything. She's only saying that they are distracting during class. Likewise, I'm sure like most professors, she doesn't allow cell phones on during class, but it doesn't make her a hypocrite if she calls a student.
Different time, different place. - swindmill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I had no use for a laptop as an undergrad, but law school is far different. I am far more efficient at taking notes on my laptop in law school, given the amount of information that is thrown at us in a small amount of time. I'm not a fast writer at all, and I simply could not take the same quality of notes by hand. Also, using a computer allows you to stay far more organized. Having case briefs and notes, as well an outline for every class gets a bit overwhelming. Sorting through case briefs, etc., while in class and taking notes is also easier when it's all on a small screen in front of you.
The only real important point is that laptops are a legitimate and efficient way of taking notes and organizing, and a professor has no right to deny that option to a student because she has some irrational bias against them. I have had a couple professors who don't like them and make obnoxious and unfounded comments about them, but they sure as hell don't ban them from class. - Drahknon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Yeah, they are pretty annoying. When I was in law school, every other person was playing solitare or IM-ing during lecture. It was pretty funny, actually, when someone would get an IM and forget to turn their sound off... suddenly, the entire class would hear the "do-do-DO" of an incoming message.
So, not a bad idea, really. If they can make you stand up and grill you for an hour, they certainly can do this. - oldcyborg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think you would have had to be there... In that particular place... Students must also learn to adjust to the person they are learning from, OR defending.... How can they do a good job, if they can't adapt to current situations... I can't call her a luddite in this case...
Cyborg
nay - krached, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6I am on the fence on this one as I did my undergrad in the early 90's no one used a computer like this. Now, I am a law student myself and it is nice to have the PC as it is easier to bring up old notes and such. The first semester or year of law school is tough because it is very different for many people as it is difficult to know exactly what you are meant to be learning. The reaction is to write down everything. Most people type faster than they write, so the computer makes this possible, while I think writing requires more reflection, trying to parse out what is important.
Sometimes I think banning note taking in general would be useful as one prof described lecturing as the process where the notes of the professor become the notes of the student without passing through the mind of either. - Karyyk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm hardly a "Luddite," but I see the point. I work in the IT field and have taught in the past, and I just don't see it being a necessity. There are enough distractions in the world without inviting more, and the last thing I would need would be to see row after row of display in front of me (and trust me, how much of that content is NOT going to be class-related). It is a distraction during a lecture, anyone who says otherwise is just defending their bias, for good or ill.
I'm all for technology, but we're breeding a dependence on it that's not going to do anyone any favors. Hearing a bunch of undergrads whine about what's fair and unfair annoys me. If you can't take notes, learn, if you can't write well enough, improve. At this point you've been a student for 12-14 years, and if you can't write well and fast enough to keep up with the lecture AND write legibly, you're either doing something wrong or you're more or less an embarrassment to yourself. - FrostyFire, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9I don't think students who paid $XX,XXX for college and $X,XXX for a laptop are gonna be too thrilled about this. If they want to throw away their education by screwing around on IM clients / random surfing instead of actually taking notes on their laptop - that's THEIR DAMN problem!!!
It's 2006 FFS, universities are now even making it mandatory for 2007 freshmens to have a laptop! - Arkitan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't take notes, I just sit, and listen to what the teacher is saying, taking notes distracts me, but If I had to take notes I would much rather do it on a laptop than with pen/paper, I write slow, and I type fast. But, I don't have a laptop, so I have to be jealous of these people who get theirs banned.
Joking aside, if she is lecturing she shouldn't be teaching, Teachers that lecture, don't know what the ***** they are doing anyway, It is a lazy way to teach, and it has been proven that it does not work nearly as well as other methods like the 5 E's method of instruction, where you present a student with a problem and make them find the answer (In Groups). If she knew how to teach she wouldn't need to worry about laptops in class, because the students would be too engaged in finding solutions to be screwing off on laptops.
She is probably the type of professor that marks you on your attendance as well. This blows my mind, having an attendance policy only tells me that your "Lectures" aren't important enough or don't have enough content, that if I miss them my grade will be affected at test time. So you have to superimpose a grade on attendance so that you can feel that your lectures are important.
I guess its pretty obvious that I don't think this prof did the right thing, if I want to screw off during class time, that's my problem, if I'm distracting, toss my ass out of class, problem solved. - deBSefyer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Taking notes is important but everyone does it in his/her own way, with different precision. I've suffered a lot because of lack of notes that I was taking, but I've suffered even more when professor didn't enforce any notes at all... or made handouts... handouts don't make you analise the information. Taking notes make you re-analise the information, rephrase it... 100% you'll memorize/understand it easier.
I don't see too much harm in typing, but professor has the right to forbid laptops if they distract him/her... - MartinB3, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I graduated in December, and I remember so many students who didn't want to even be at class. Tons of kids with parents that wanted their children to get an education. Don't assume that students show up because they intend to learn something.
Laptops can be useful or they can be distracting -- depends on the student. Still, even just one full screen MMORPG from someone sitting in the front means everyone behind the person has to try to ignore the video game graphics.
Why not pay teachers better so they can afford to learn more about technology through enrichment classes? If you think teachers aren't underpaid, you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Maybe with some respect and backup from society she'd be concentrating on her technology and classes and not on this news article.
And if you plan on being a lawyer, you should probably be able to handle a judge that says "no clickety-clack." FWIW, Luddite means opposing technical or technological change. She responded via email. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Attendance policies are appropriate in some circumstances. First, freshmen have this notion that they never need to show up for class and they will do just fine. Freshmen in college DO NOT know how to learn; they think they know how to learn and are often surprise that their GPA at the end of their first semester looks more like the ERA of a CY young winner than a successful student. Students also have the mistaken belief that if they are paying for their education they should decide if they want to waste their money. There are two problems with this perspective: First, if you go to a state school, YOU are not paying all of your tuition... taxpayer or not! Second, many traditional college students have additional funding sources besides their own jobs, among which would be scholarships from benefactors (their money) and family. An attendance policy (I give points for attendance) reinforces the value of showing up for class. Students who show up for class do better on the exams and projects; in addition they get a reinforcer (points toward their grade) for showing up.
In an upper-level research course, students work in groups and their attendance has everything to do with group success. One of the biggest complaints students have is that someone in their group "hasn't been/didn't show up." There is enough work to be done on each project that students working alone (I have tried this alternative) end up with very weak projects because they simply have too much to do to conduct research. An attendance policy is also appropriate in this instance.
As for certain methods being "proven" to work best; this is complete naivete and ignores individual differences (the very thing that people in here are pointing to "I do much better when I can do A rather than B." Although I applaud assessment endeavors and the goals of research in education, it is often flawed in the sense of providing strong evidence for anything, let alone PROVING anything; any scientist/researcher knows that we never PROVE anything, we simply provide evidence in support of, or against a claim. - coheedcollapse, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Although laptops are great help in class, I browse the net on mine while taking notes. In fact i'm in a class right now.
I don't think she's an idiot for doing that, although I'd hate it. I can't read my handwritten notes when i pick them up a week later. - tidejwe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I just record the audio too. someone in my class uses their pocket-pc/PDA to record audio as well. hmmm....I wonder how well it could turn out if you played it into the microphone while running a version of speech-to-text...make the computer take notes for you! That'd be great!
- LNahid2000, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Print out (or have your students print out) your PowerPoint notes. To encourage attendance, you can leave key words blank, so they fill them in during lecture with your master PowerPoint presentation. That way we can follow along, mostly listening to the professor, and write down OTHER noteworthy information as it is presented."
Yeah, I've always found that when teachers print out notes and I'm able to just listen to the teacher, I learn a lot better. - Dasein, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4This is absolutely a good idea. At my law school 80% of the class is usually immersed in surfing the web, etc, and the other 20% is transcribing every single word the professor is saying. If that is the way a class is going to be run it might as well be given over the internet.
- coheedcollapse, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't assume the "new way" is better, I know it is. It's not like I haven't grown up writing on paper my whole life, I only recently recieved a laptop. I can take notes faster, more accurately, have them more organized, drop in pictures from quick internet searches to help me out, copy and paste wikipedia articles on the spot, set it up to automatically remind me when I need to turn something in, etc.
With pen and paper I end up with a cramped hand, incomplete notes due to fast talking, a messy, crumpled piece of paper in the bottom of my bookbag.
Yeah the last one can be helped with a folder, but still, it's much less organized than carrying my laptop to class.
I don't record my lectures, I write them down, abbreviating where necessary (just like I would when writing by hand). - FrostyFire, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I can type 90 WPM on a slow day, why would I ever want to try taking notes with a pen ever again?
Give a shout out if you're reading this in class right now! - ksgant, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5What ever happened to just jotting down a quick note here and there...and TAPING the lecture? When I was in school, that's what I did. I just brought along my tape-recorder and taped the lecture, while I was taking notes.
When I'm going out to interview someone, I take either a tape recorder if they're ok with that, or just my notebook. That's it.
If you want every word, use a tape recorder and place it down near her so it can record everything. Sheesh, you don't need to have your face behind a screen and being drowned out by a bunch of typing all over the class.
Also bloodwings(in a comment below), it's THEIR class. If you don't like it, leave. That "we pay your salaries" doesn't fly. Go ahead, give it a try next time. - gigabitten, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I agree with phpirated, the students are the ones who payed to be there in most cases and if they want to use the time using a laptop or pen and paper it is their choice.
- rudolphdude, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Actually I think that she makes the point that she sees the value in computers for certain things but also values having the attention of her students while in lecture...
- serra, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If they weren't doing that, then they'd be writing letters to friends or doodling, if they didn't have a laptop. Same difference.
- Yamanba, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Read the books and discuss in class, that is how you learn.
- starmanjones, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5i think i can give a solid reason why these people don't like technology. from the middle ages until recently you went to school and you memorized all the stuff you need to know for life. it started because there were no books or libraries. it continued because people that could memorize well became the establish authority/gatekeeper for what the requirements are to be called education. but, the average 3st grader has as much knowledge to cram in as their grandparents did through the 8th grade... or something like that.
its become impossible to remember everything you need to know. the advantage is to the person who doesn't memorize as well but can juggle the important concepts and know where to find them quickly... and what to do with it when they find it. this is a different cognitive style from the person who memorizes. but the memorize rs are in power. there is a paradyne shift happening. memorize rs think that bring or accessing information is cheating. well, its the real world. i don't want an engineer no matter how talented to do it by hand. i used to fight with professors about my palm pilot. i could access the internet and i told them if they didn't let me then i was being discriminated against. sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. but it is right. so... anyway... multitaskers unite. - gollo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I have profs that tell us they do not allow laptops in class all the time because of several reasons. The clicking noise the keys make is one and the fact that other students (ie people behind you) are watching what you are doing and not paying attention in class. This is not news.
- yakk0dotorg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Way for my school to get national media attention. The sad thing is that people on both sides of this issue are so stubburn. The professor should be more willing to allow students to learn in the way they learn best. Some do that with computers. The students need to realize that the professor can teach better when they're more comfortable. Looking at a room full of laptop screens might give you the feeling you're speaking to a brick wall. There's a compromise in there somewhere, and I trust that as law students and professors they're smart enough to find it.
- Jams, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5I feel for you, I'm exactly the same. I can't stand handwriting, the only time I use a pen is when I'm scribbling ideas or code.
- dcipjr, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Good for her, I say.
In my experience, unless I'm working in a lab environment, or learning about a programming language or piece of software, having a laptop in class works better in theory than in practice. At least to me, they seem to really be more of a distraction than anything. And although I can type faster than I write, I also have yet to find any software that lets me take down figures, equations, etc. quickly enough. By the time I've entered the equation or boxed the important text, the prof is way ahead.
I could see an argument for letting the students use tablet PCs, which let you do freehand sketching and writing. But still, a regular notebook won't run out of batteries, and dropping it on the ground won't cause you to lose your notes. If your hand-written notes are less organized, learn how to take good notes! That'll be helpful in the long run, anyway. - igdrasa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I think tablet PCs might fit the bill as a good compromise, not that I'm suggesting people go out and buy them for this lecture.
- BiggPa, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3in most of the people in my classes who have laptops are just messing around on the Internet or playing old games
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