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162 Comments
- jeremyflavored, on 10/11/2007, -7/+56a while back i went on a big tear where i ripped all my CDs into ogg
once the warm fuzzy feeling wore off, it just became an annoyance because i couldn't play it in 50% of the players i came across, and dont even think about trying to put oggs on most of your popular portable music players.
if it was better supported, more power to ogg!
but sadly it doesn't really pass the consumer field test yet - JonForTheWin, on 10/11/2007, -6/+52We gotta get our favorite bit torrent sites using Ogg or start one that's Ogg Theora Xvid and FLAC only. =)
- jackhole, on 10/11/2007, -2/+44FLAC and Vorbis, the two best audio formats going. Speex is pretty good too.
The pedant in me wishes to point out that Ogg is a container format. People sometimes forget. - agrabob, on 10/11/2007, -12/+51OGG FTW!
Official Ogg Vorbis homepage:
http://www.vorbis.com/
also, if your looking for a lossless codec that is NOT encumbered by similar patents, FLAC is the way to go:
http://flac.sourceforge.net/ - Grimboy, on 10/11/2007, -2/+40Nah. Etymology from wikipedia:
It is often erroneously assumed that the name Ogg comes from the character of Nanny Ogg in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels. Rather, it derives from ogging, jargon from the computer game Netrek which came to mean doing something forcefully, possibly without consideration of the drain on future resources. At its inception, the Ogg project was thought to be somewhat ambitious given the power of the PC hardware of the time. - ClunkClunk, on 10/11/2007, -2/+28AACS (Advanced Access Content System) which is what HDDVD and BluRay use is not the same as AAC (Advanced Audio Coding) which was made popular by iTunes.
- BigFloppy, on 10/11/2007, -7/+32They don't support it because it kills the battery life. It's a very processor-intensive codec.
- Grimboy, on 10/11/2007, -4/+27When I took the 'which file extension are you' test on the spamosphere I was .ogg so I feel a deep emotional connection to this format. Also it is a good format not encumbered by patents. I'm not going to reencode mp3s in it cause that'd be stupid because it'd be lossy but I do use it when ripping CDs and the like. FLAC is a good lossless format too.
- arcooke, on 10/11/2007, -7/+28"Ogg! I love the acronym, if that's what it is."
You had the opportunity at a first post, and that's ALL you could come up with?
@JonForTheWin
Though I hate your nickname with a burning passion, you have a good point. I bet you anything we (as diggers and pirates) could sway TPB and TorrentFreak into mass advertising the OGG format. Those two sites combined can change the world. :) - cruzlee, on 10/11/2007, -3/+23And for windows users I recommend installing foobar (www.foobar2000.org) (or a plugin to winamp)
As for support of this oss audio format in WMP? I doubt that's ever going to work.
No problem? Well, sorry there is a problem. Your MS Media Center will not play these Ogg's you switched to. I can tell you that from experience, because almost 60% of my music collection is in ogg.
What have I done to fix that? Simple: Media Portal
Why do I ask myself all those questions? I don't know.
Good luck. Oh, and don't buy portable audio equipment without vorbis support! - arcooke, on 10/11/2007, -9/+27Convert them to MIDI.
- idonthack, on 10/11/2007, -4/+18"I feel a deep emotional connection to this format."
Quoted for hilarity. - Amablue, on 10/11/2007, -4/+17Same here. I had a good chunk of my music in ogg format for a long time. Then I got an Zen Vision M and found none of it would play, so I had to pull out my CDs and re-rip my music.
I'd use ogg if companies would just include support for it (which is free anyway, right?). - prockcore, on 10/11/2007, -1/+14Depends on what the contest was for. Ogg is used in a very large number of video games these days.
- patch, on 10/11/2007, -3/+15For mac users I recommend getting the iTunes/Quicktime component over listening to your Ogg files in VLC at http://www.xiph.org/quicktime/
- venom8599, on 10/11/2007, -2/+13I don't recall a war... If you're talking about AAC vs OGG, etc.. then there have only been a few skirmishes. The war comes when MP3 ceases to be good enough. For the most part, there's no real need to replace MP3 yet. (Except for patent encumbrance, which is an even bigger issue for AAC. Oh, and people who think they can tell the difference between a 192kbps LAME-encoded MP3 and 192kbps AAC.)
- carpespasm, on 10/11/2007, -0/+11if you were to go flac, there's no difference between that and apple lossless in audio quality, it's just a matter of which compresses better. as far as encodes louder? you're probably ripping the files to ogg with the wrong settings or something, the volume level should be pretty much the same regardless of the format. wav is wastefully huge, regardless of hdd size.
- Loonacy, on 10/11/2007, -4/+14"We gotta get our favorite bit torrent sites using Ogg or start one that's Ogg Theora Xvid and FLAC only. =)"
Not gonna happen, as far as Ogg goes. Too many portable media players don't play Ogg files, which is unfortunate because Ogg really does sound a lot better. I got my friend at work to ditch his iPod and get an Ogg capable player after I let him do a "blind" test of the same song encoded MP3 and Ogg, with the Ogg encoded at a lower bitrate. - coheedcollapse, on 10/11/2007, -7/+16FLAC is pretty useless though unless you're a total audiophile and want to re-burn a CD over and over (or convert an original recording into a bunch of other different formats). I've seen more than a few instances in which people couldn't tell the difference between FLAC and high quality VBR MP3 files that are less than half the size even with the most sophisticated headphones.
- kingp, on 10/11/2007, -2/+11AAC is not owned by Apple. It was created by Dolby labs, as competition to .mp3, and they do not charge royalties for it's use.
- karamba_kid, on 10/11/2007, -7/+16In the sound quality vs. file size match I do believe ogg won.
- SimonGray, on 10/11/2007, -4/+13Ogg is a container. The music compression format is called Vorbis, the video compression format is called Theora. I think FLAC uses Ogg to, but I might be wrong....
- venom8599, on 10/11/2007, -1/+10ugh... I'll pass on such inefficiency.
- jeremyflavored, on 10/11/2007, -2/+11@BigFloppy
the open source community is famous for coming up with solutions to problems presented to it's product (usually many solutions to pick from)
is the spread of the ogg vorbis codec to portable players simply not a goal for ogg vorbis? or is it simply a structural problem with the vorbis codec that prevents it from being streamlined.
i wouldn't call myself an expert on the vorbis format...does anyone else know why something hasn't been proposed to fix vorbis for portable players? - Dumbledorito, on 10/11/2007, -3/+12Well, that and the name is unfortunate. I can't hear anyone asking if they got the "ogg" of the new Amiee Mann song.
Open-source needs a marketing department. :) - I922sParkCir, on 10/11/2007, -3/+12Ogg works just fine on my iPod, so does FLAC. Check out Rockbox, it is much easier than iPod Linux, and if you can get past the ugly interface, it is a welcome improvement.
- DoctorLex, on 10/11/2007, -6/+14It's this very kind of attitude that prevents it from becoming popular.
- zip22, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11re-encoding from your MP3 files will always lose quality. if you have the cds, use a lossless format like flac.
- antoniojvr, on 10/11/2007, -1/+9Is it pronounced "awg" or "ooooog"?
- belly917, on 10/11/2007, -2/+10@cruzlee
winamp will play ogg vorbis "out-of-the-box" no post-install plug-in is required.
@ Loonacy
I agree that we/you/whoever shouldn't buy products with such limited codec support like the iPod.. I bought an iRiver iHP-120 way back when because of it's codec support, drag % drop support, etc. It made the ipod look foolish from a tech/spec perspective.
That being said, since your friend already owns the iPod, he still didn't have to ditch it to get ogg vorbis support. Just put rockbox http://www.rockbox.org/ on it and it'll be able to play a ton more formats. (disclaimer. rockbox on the ipods is a work in progress, there are a few things yet to be polished like battery efficiency) - Krechet, on 10/11/2007, -3/+11Once iPods start supporting ogg (whether through iPodLinux, Rockbox, or natively) I'll convert all my music to it. Until then it's 192kbps mp3s.
- arcooke, on 10/11/2007, -4/+12It's not over 'til it's over.
- MasteRR, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8"Depends on what the contest was for. Ogg is used in a very large number of video games these days."
True. Any game based on the recent Unreal (ut2k3 and newer) engine use OGG for their music. Also, many toys with sound and music use embedded OGG decoders. - reldruh, on 10/11/2007, -1/+8@breepee
The point of using an unencumbered format for your music is that it'll be around for as long there are people using it. And yes, diskspace is cheap but who wants to carry around an external hard drive? I have 80 gigs in my laptop and using a format like ogg (along with linux, which will always have support for it) let's me store many times more music than I would be able to. The next step in listening to my music is going to be storing it all on a server and accessing it all remotely, but that's going to wait until there's faster broadband speeds and no dead zones.
@jackhole
Ogg may be a container format, but have you ever tried using anything other than Vorbis with it for audio? I tried making OggFlac's a while back and not a single player had support for it. You'd think that an open source container format coupled with an open source audio codec would be easy on an open source operating system, but I got nothing, not even after asking on the forums. Ogg and vorbis, while not technically the same thing, are synonymous. - ScreaminIke, on 10/11/2007, -2/+9flac can be put into oggs. think of it... raw mpeg4 video... flac audio... ogg container.
- Breepee, on 10/11/2007, -1/+7@coheedcollapse:
I just don't want to bother with messing around with all these codecs ever again, or/and losing any information about the music (which happens with lossy formats). It isn't so much the better sound quality (I can't hear a difference between a good 192VBR and FLAC), but more that I can transcode FLAC to anything without any loss if it ever becomes out of style or something better comes around. Also, diskspace is cheap (500GB is €90) so why bother? Encoding your 5 yr. old 320kbit MP3 to Vorbis now, and to XYZ in 10 years will succesively degrade the signal, with FLAC it doesn't matter one bit (literally).
With formats like FLAC (APE, Apple Lossless, WMA Lossless) sound quality is seperated from the codec used, with lossy formats it's not. - caban, on 10/11/2007, -0/+6@jmob
"do you really think a 60-80 meg file is going to make the least bit of difference when we are all sporting 30 TB drives in the not to distant future?"
No...but I do think I might have more than one file.
50% more space and bandwidth is always welcome IMO. - franksands, on 10/11/2007, -4/+10For the last time AAC is not owned by Apple. It a format as free as mp3.
- slythfox, on 10/11/2007, -3/+9Didn't know that in the first place. Then again, I should have made the connection when I hear/read "Ogg Vorbis"
- zip22, on 10/11/2007, -1/+6many ipods are supported by rockbox. the models that aren't supported right now are the second generation ipod nano, the 80GB ipod, and (obviously never will be) the ipod shuffle.
- zip22, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7i spoke too soon, flac can use the ogg container (though for audio alone, they don't recommend it).
http://flac.sourceforge.net/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg - radio1mike, on 10/11/2007, -2/+7To some of the naysayers, FLAC is great.
Sure it takes more space than ogg/mp3-- but it does compress CDs to about 50% of their size. This is good for a few reasons:
1) Archiving CDs-- got 500 CDs? Buy a 500GB hard drive for $150, FLAC them and take 350-400GB of the drive and ogg/mp3 them for the rest of the drive space.
2) Future Proofing-- new codec comes that compress file size but retains dynamic range and quality. Encode that codec from FLAC instead of re-ripping your CDs.
3) Data Duplication-- you can now store your CDs safely away.
(I have been encoding all new CDs I get into FLAC and burning a copy too...)
Now Ogg-
This is slightly more problematic. I own an iRiver Clix, it plays Ogg. But there are drawbacks-- decreased battery life and (with my player) the inability to play ogg files tagged with album art. Now why did I buy this thing if it can not play and display what I want...
(I have been encoding all new CDs to ogg instead of mp3- but I may start encoding to mp3 also...)
But I like ogg especially with its sound quality and licensing advantages... - markc, on 10/11/2007, -6/+11The "ogg" sufix is probably one of the simplest dumb things holding back wider adoption of Ogg/Vorbis. Most non-geeks I have ever tried to convince to use ogg have a first reaction of "ogg = ugh - you're joking, mp3 sounds way cooler" (not the codec, the name itself). If the the most brain dead simple "marketing" move was made to officially change the "*.ogg" suffix for Ogg/Vorbis to "mpx" (ie; mp3 eXtended, implying next-gen), and that "mpx" was actively promoted as THE replacement for mp3, then that ultra-simple move would do more for naive cultural acceptance than anything I can think of.
Second point is that reusing .ogg as the suffix for both audio and video streams is also really dumb. Once the file gets to a player then that player can work out whats going on but delivering the file/stream off the web via a single mime.type of application/ogg gives a browser NO OPPORTUNITY to figure out whether to launch an audio-ONLY player or a video player for *.ogg content. This is a real-world problem that could be simply solved by using and registering audio/mpx (audio/x-mpx in the mean time) as an official mime.type and leaving application/ogg for true MULTI-media Ogg wrapped media.
So, again IMVHO, if the general usage of Ogg/Vorbis was changed from "ogg" to "mpx", to directly challenge and compete with "mp3", then it would hit on both a marketing orientated perceptual shift and also solve real-world delivery confusion between Ogg based audio-only and video streams. It's one of the simplest non-technical changes I can think of in the free-software world that would have the largest impact on it's respective status-quo. - ericdano, on 10/11/2007, -14/+18Ok, who let these guys out of the back room.
Seriously, the war is over. I don't think OGG won. - Krechet, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6True, but there are other factors that prevent one from using Rockbox full time. One of those being poor battery life. Another: high kbps files cannot be decoded in real time using the software that comes with Rockbox.
- plonk420, on 10/11/2007, -4/+8OGG is decently superior to MP3 and rivals AAC (simple profile)... plus it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling giving patented audio formats the finger using something that's completely free... but until every standalone device i have in my house (that i actually give a ***** about) plays OGG, i won't be switching to it anytime soon (Pioneer headunit, PSP, PS3)
...and to (98% of) those of you who THINK you can hear a difference between an "APS*" MP3 and an OGG of similar or higher bitrate... keep enjoying your blissful ignorance
(*APS, AKA --alt-preset-standard, AKA -V 2 now) - titanix88, on 10/11/2007, -0/+4Why ogg is with the anti "Digital Restrictions Management":
1.It is not possible to use ogg container with codecs that encrypts with some key or etc. At least DRM guys won't be so stupid to use a open specification both for technical purpose and for ethical(they hate FOSS ;).
2.'Believe it or Not' - the licensing of mp3(at least-Don't know about other formats) enforces the decoder writer to actually pay for each song it decodes. That's why even if you are using a free decoder(not commecial-so have no ways to pay the authorities) to hear your song, you are actually violeting the so called licensing terms.That's where ogg kicks in.
3.It's "Free & Open Source" not freeware. So it's not like some other codecs which faded away in time because of thier poor marketing skill. It's continuous development ain't gonna let it "Just Fade Away". On top of the container you can experiment & develop lots of codecs for the future.
So "Go,OGG!!!" - twistymcgee, on 10/11/2007, -2/+6Or just sing them into a microphone. There wouldn't be any loss there.
- Wavewash, on 10/11/2007, -1/+5This is a great file format for use in independent game development (or any software development for that matter). No legal overhead and high quality sound.
@aura - agreed. I wish ipod supported it. Apparently the samsung players support it. -
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