What is Digg?196 Comments
- kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -3/+44Once you start torturing prisoners, whether they're suspects, malcontents, or outright monsters, you pretty much lose any claim you previously had to being "the good guy". In any situation.
We didn't stoop to torture (at least as national policy) during World Wars I, or II, or any part of the cold war, and the stakes were a lot greater then, the enemy a lot bigger, scarier, better funded, better armed, etc... Our nation has been through plenty worse than plane hijackings and bombings in it's 200 odd year history.
Why is this administration so focused on betraying our nation's principles, honor?
Have we been driven that mad with cowardice and fear? - kowgod, on 10/12/2007, -6/+35I would say yes. I do think the average american cares about this stuff.
But the questions isn't whether or not they care, the question is whether or not they know what's going on. I mean, really know what's going on... - canadianguy33, on 10/12/2007, -8/+33***
from the article:
"The rest of the world is completely convinced that we are busy torturing people," said Oona A. Hathaway, an expert in international law at Yale Law School. "Whether that is true or not, the fact we keep refusing to provide these protections in our formal directives puts a lot of fuel on the fire."
****
This definitely adds fuel to the fire but how big is the fire and where is it burning? Does the average American Joe care about this stuff? - Woofcat, on 10/12/2007, -4/+27username: fleeb@fleeble.com
password: fleeble - disrupter, on 10/12/2007, -7/+28And then they ask why 9/11 happened
- sbrown123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20It appears that Al Quida has beaten us. All they had to do was run a couple of planes in to some buildings and then sit back and watch us Americans destroy the rest. This sucks.
- Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21"Jack Bauer is a good representation of what we need more of in this country before we can comfortable say good-bye to terrorism.
The Pentagon is heading in the right direction..."
Yeah, it's all well and good to be flippant about this.....until the FBI knocks on your door and say "You're suspected of terrorism. Come with us." Doesn't matter if they're completely off base or not. At that point, I bet your view on torture would be much different than it is today.
We make rules, we adhere to rules. It's that simple. There is no "gray area". No "above the law". Once we begin to side-step laws for the sake of convenience or "security", we're no different than the scumbags we're trying to stop. - djdresden, on 10/12/2007, -8/+25I don't think the average American is remotely aware of anything that goes on outside their immediate sphere of influence. As long as their daily life isn't being directly affected, I don't think they even care.
Besides, now that Bush is bringing gay marriage to the forefront of news again, he can go about doing whatever he wants, while everyone focuses their negativity to a different minority. - ahhell, on 10/12/2007, -4/+20I don't understand how they can get away with this crap.
- n00854180t, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20If the US were any other country doing this, they'd be getting invaded by the US. Most people are too vapid and trusting of the current media regime to remember what happened a mere few years ago, but these are essentially the same actions that the Bush admin. used to invade Iraq (that and mythical WMDs).
- kremvax, on 10/12/2007, -3/+17SOME of the tortured prisoners have turned out to be terrorists. And SOME of the tortured prisoners have turned out to be innocent.
This is the whole reason we have a justice system.
In fact, until this administration came to power, we had one of the most honorable and respected justice systems in the world.
Now we have secret trials, secret evidence, indefinite holdings without access to counsel, and of course TORTURE.
While all of this would make Stalin himself glow with pride, it's completely ***** un-American! It subverts everything our country stands for. ( Justice for All...equal justice under law... All men being endowed with inalienable rights, etc... For the kids in the slow class, ask your parents what that used to mean. Also the definition of the words "principles", "justice", "law"... discuss why it's a good idea to have these things...) - Ensnared, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14"Is it just me or is everyone forgetting that these people are TERRORISTS?!?"
What does that matter? Does it mean we can treat them the way they would've treated us? How does that make us better than them?
Besides, there's something about "innocent until proven guilty". You folks (americans that is) have so many lawyers and trials, you should be fairly familiar with that concept. But apparently, if the suspected crime is "terrorism" (can you say "broad term"?), that concept is turned around, and it's guilty until proven innocent, so let's not give them any chance to prove anything - stick them on an island and piss all over the Geneva convention and any other concept of human rights. Then, tomorrow, write a letter to the Chinese government condemning them for doing the exact same thing.
***** hypocrites. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18i don't believe this falls under a tech communities definition of "hack"
- Dradis, on 10/12/2007, -3/+16JMartin13, you watch Bill O'Reilly and Fox news, don't you?
- b7j0c, on 10/12/2007, -6/+17hacking is a positive verb. this is not positive.
- Beautyon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Animals.
- Chewie67, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12What the hell has happened to us? It's hard to keep feeling morally superior to the rest of the world when our own government likes to break the rules of International Law and US Constitutional Law when it's not convenient.
- pype, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12They can get away with whatever they want because 99% of Americans won't do a goddamn thing about it. I would wager that GWB could procalim himself Emperor Of The Americas For Life and the worst you would see is a few riots followed by a government sponsored crackdown that would make Tianamen look like a speeding ticket.
Nice country you got there. - gluteus, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15You must be one of the people who voted for Bush. I feel genuinely sorry for the ones who didn't. Thanks to you and to the corrupt, immoral regime you support, the US has gone from being the "good guys" to just another bully state that feels obligated to ***** all over the rest of the world.
- opti, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20The US is giving much more mercy than the Geneva Convention calls for, especially since the Geneva Convention itself says that it applies to uniformed soldiers of signatory nations to the Geneva Convention. Most of the detainees we are holding come closest to fitting in the Geneva Convention's category of "spies," and are entitled to NO SUCH PROTECTIONS.
- repins, on 10/12/2007, -7/+16Most of the Geneva Convention refers to the treatment of Uniformed Soldiers, not militants with guns. This is why during WW2 allied soldiers behind enemy lines wore their uniforms under outer clothes. If caught the Geneva Convention applied...if you where not in uniform the Geneva Convention did not apply to you.
Digg me down if you want, but the truth remains. - shaun944, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11It will be interesting to see if any of the current administration is able to travel abroad freely in a few years. For ex. Henry Kissinger has to consult w/ lawyers before he leaves the country because he's wanted for questioning in relation to war crimes and could be detained if he goes to an "unfriendly" country. If proof emerges that any of the higher ups were aware of or condoned violations of the Geneva Conventions, they surely would be tried as war criminals perhaps even in absentia.
- Hungryhaney, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10JMartin13 knows where the WMD's are, he is just too scared of TERRORISTS to tell the right people.
- BlurredWeasel, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10That is not the humiliation they are talking about. There is a difference between a cultural problem with being interrogated by a woman, and being stripped to your underwear and being put on display in front of other prisoners.
- felchdonkey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8sbrown -
You know what it reminds me of? If you remember, there was a Twilight Zone episode where the aliens are getting ready to invade, but instead of attacking *en masse*, they just disrupt a few things in each town, and wait while the locals all start suspecting each other and tear their own town apart. - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7And when captured many of them were executed or put on prison ships that definitely defied the Geneva conventions which were created roughly 150 years later... what's your point?
- grendelwraith, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Right because as soon as someone calls them a terrorist, we can just throw away "All men are created equal"
Because you know they are terrorists.
All our founding fathers were terrorists from the perspective of the British. - Dradis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8@Parokki
I would say that it's often the case that the US simply doesn't care either way, allies or enemies. - Ascendant, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Last I checked, all the other nations that signed it still adhere to it. It's not like the US was at the Geneva Convention by itself.
- dahat, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Congrats opti! You are the first person I have seen here to recognize who the Geneva Convention’s apply to with regards to captured persons.
It’s a shame that so many forget that all of those folks we’ve got down in GitMo were uninformed and not part of a regular army. - felchdonkey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Actually, JMartin13, that's the problem. We don't know if they're terrorists or not. Given the vast numbers of people we've picked up in sweeps since 9/11, the odds are stacked pretty hardcore against most of them being guilty of much more than being brown in the wrong place/wrong time.
For those that were picked up in Afghanistan & Iraq - some were picked up on the battlefield, others were taken from their homes. I'm sure a lot of them were fighting the US, and let's go with your assumption that they were. Is the logical step to take enemy=torture them?
Once you've brought all these prisoners to Gitmo or Abu Graib or some Polish black site, then what? Do you think we can just let them go after we get through with them? I'd say a prisoner who has been in Gitmo for 4 years is someone you REALLY don't want to put back into Bagdad.
So then what - are we going to execute them all? Put them in prison for life?
Have you got a plan here? - ViperDaimao, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Where I think they're coming from with this is that its hard to define and follow the "humilitation" clause for a person that would be humiliated by simply being interrorgated by a woman, or even touched by a non-muslim.
Still I'd like to hear something along the lines of an official defense/explanation before I get all morally outraged. - DAC1138, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Why is the word "hacked" being thrown around so pointlessly now?
"learn to hack your underwear: an article about getting whites whiter and darks darker"
"hacking ravioli: how they get the filling inside!" - n00854180t, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Any US citizen could be arrested as a "terrorist" without any probable cause or evidence, due to the Patriot Act (man, I love that just because of how ironic the name is). Considering you (JMartin) have no way of knowing or proving that these people being tortured are terrorists or not. And with the Patriot Act, the government doesn't have to prove anything about anyone they detain, nor give them any civil rights or due process whatsoever.
- Luftwaffle, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"Luftwaffle, when will you realize that if a story makes the front page, then by definition, people have found it interesting."
No, really? I hadn't figured that out. Thanks for pointing it out to me though.
Let me reciprocate your kindness by pointing out to you the first line of text on the submission page: "Quality Technology Content: Is your story technology related? ..." - helix400, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"But don't you think digg is a bit richer for having non-tech stuff ?"
Heh, have you seen what happens to websites when they start allowing political content? It instantly becomes flooded with ugly partisan debates filled with inaccurate information, rumors, conspiracy theories, and lies.
It also means that the majority political opinion on the web out-muscles the dissenting opinion, constantly driving away those with minority opinions. That means the website suffers heavily from "groupthink", and good debates vanish. Even worse, the comments section become so rude and vile, that it drives away almost everyone except the most bitter and hardened political flamewar junkies.
If you don't believe me, look at Fark's political section. http://www.fark.com/politics/ Read the comments to see just how ugly it can be. Now just imagine that with free moderation for everyone. It would be a disaster. - strictnein, on 10/12/2007, -14/+18Stop with the facts. This topic is here to bash the US, not point out the facts of the matter.
- valkyries, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6The Geneva Convention only protects people fighting for a country not fighting for a cause
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@PowerCow
You are what makes America weak. - hipnerd, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6(Article 5):"Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act..." is a prisoner of war "...such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."
--Third Geneva Convention - raid517, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"Soon news will be a part of digg as well."
Says who? I wish it was. Then we could have digg news, digg science and digg technology. - Salisme, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4While I'm happy you all are questioning this method the government is trying to pass through, and I agree that we should never stoop to the same level as the terrorists. Its great to exercise our freedom and question these tatics. But why is there not the same "uprising" when civilians are found beheaded? What was it...just last week a Russian diplomat and his staff were found beheaded somewhere in Iraq after they were kidnapped?
We may not be the best country around, but holy cow we smack one person up and America is the great evil. Same thing with the shooting being investigated. Idiots strap bombs on themselves and walk in to crowds of women and children and flip the switch and they are heroes, but when there might be civilian causalities in a crossfire during a war, America is evil?
I don't understand the logic. - CaptRR, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6You mean like having their heads cut off on TV?
I mean Muslim fanatic would never do that. - raid517, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Well you are certainly not the only nation. Previously the Geneva convention was the yard stick we used to determine who we believed were and were not civilised countries.
I assume your implication is that that yard stick should no longer apply to America? - XxN3RDC0R3xX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4It's "sieg heil".
- saintgenius, on 10/12/2007, -8/+11In other news, Al Qaeda rejects the Geneva Convention, saying that "it violates the Koran" and that "Allah willing, we will burn Geneva to the ground."
- SeanFL, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6When the ACLU and others like it consider anything less than giving a 5 course meal to detainees "humiliating and degrading treatment," we should probably remove it. Who defines what's humiliating? Is sitting in isolation for a few days (with aforementioned 5 course meal) humiliating? Is handing them a copy of the Koran without perfectly white gloves degrading?
We've never had a war like this...a loosely knit group of people all out for the destruction of our nation and those like it. Bash Bush all you want, but to wish for a leader that would appease our enemy and get them to like us would be like asking for Neville Chamberlain to come back from the dead.
The countries most of these idiots come from are five centuries behind and have to blame someone for their woes. Prior to 9/11, were we oppressing Muslims around the world? Were we making life hard for those countries they resided in? You have what you have because you do what you do. And still everyone wants to move here... - Paroparo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Simple: The world is divided into the US's allies and enemies. Nobody cares what the enemies think and none of the allies are willing to stand up to her.
- ditoa, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5joerao: and yet the biggest threat came from the president of the united states in season 5 of 24. rather interesting don't ya think.
- aviazn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"If the US were any other country doing this, they'd be getting invaded by the US."
Ahh, if only. But in fact, the US could never invade such a country, because as North Korea and Iran (thus far) have proven, nukes buy leverage. Once a rogue state actually has nukes, the danger of them going berserk effectively eliminates any military option--thus the necessity of the option of preemptive action. Unfortunately, the Bush administration, with their inept execution of the war in Iraq, has done far more to hurt their own policy's credibility than any of their critics ever could.
Also, why digg JMartin down? He represents a genuine viewpoint that has large sway in the US; such pro-torture sentiment should be hung out in the open to dry for all the world to see, not buried away as if it doesn't exist. For those of us who disagree with him, it is ugly, and I believe it to be un-American, but it must be in the open before it can be defeated. It's one thing to digg down spam or trolling, but it's quite another to use it to supress political speech, no matter how ugly. -
Show 51 - 100 of 193 discussions
Digg is coming to a city (and computer) near you! Check out all the details on our 
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is