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139 Comments
- shagybones, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Something everyone should think about one of our founding fathers said:
‘those who would trade a little liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security’ - b. franklin, - clabbergrrl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6"Huh, it's perfectly legal."
So was the gassing of Jews in Auschwitz. - eyreka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5sounds more and more like the u.s. is turning into a police state - i do hope americans don't put up with that
get these guys (& gals) out of office. - thenativeraver, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4guilty untill proven innocent.
- Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Warm your hands on the burning flag, children.
- raccettura, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4jkfan87: "One more time for all of you idiots. They are NOT monitoring the subject lines!"
Maybe not directly.... but they can.
Once they have this authorization, their systems can search mail and extract headers, and such.... but remember the laws of plain sight... if an officer sees it, they don't need a warrant.
Once their systems are hooked up, they could argue if the system can intercept, it's fair game.
Under that pretense, they don't need permission to read email contents or subject.
That's what they are going for.... they don't really care about headers. They just know once the system is hooked up, they have access to all mail.
What they are asking for is permission to connect. - joel2600, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5most people don't have any reason to hide the things that go through their e-mail.... but because of this I would hope that PGP and similar technologies become more widely adopted by all communities just to give the government a big FU... and to say just because they say they can doesn't mean that we are going to let them
if we're paying for their services with our tax dollars, we should have unsolicited access to all of their e-mails and other communications just to make sure that they are looking out for our best interests. - FAT_PIGGY, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Now if someday they start twisting these laws to go after Americans for non-terrorist related crimes, that's when we have to do something about it."
i hate to break it to you but it already happened.
www.infowars.com - tuna1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"The ONLY thing they wanted was who a certain guy was contacting. They just wanted to know if he was contacting a member of a terrorist organization. They didn't even ask for the subject of the email. PLUS it was for one person. This isn't a big deal at all.
Eric Wilson"
Oh so you know this for a fact? You know EXACTLY what they're going to use this for? Well, I'm glad someone does. It used to be the Judicial branch who would tell them what exactly they could use this for. Now they have it the way they want; leave it open for [mis]interpretation. So now have the ability to use this section of the act without any oversight. - LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+30troy: "I just love it when Americans complain about having no freedom or opportunity. There are dozens of countries you can visit and see just how evil a government can be. The simple fact that you all can plug your ears and march on washington chanting "Bush lied people died" or "Socialism is gravy, Bush eats babies" and not be beaten to a pulp by police or run over by tanks speaks volumes to your freedom.
So I hate to say it, but love it or leave it. Because god knows there are more than enough people who would give their right arm to take your place."
Ya your right. Some people would give there right arm to live here,but heres the thing. Why should I, a native born American, should start losing my rights? It's not that America sucks more than most countries, but why should we try to make it suck? I am proud that I have the right to privacy and speech, but if I lose them, then what do I have to be proud of?
Also America dosen't suck. It's Bush that sucks.
(lol I did spell check, and it checked all your words) - cptn_cardboard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3this is sick
Anyone who just says "i have nothing to hide" is a goddamn moron!
once they go after just checking emails for traces of "terrorism," whats stoping them from searching your email beacuse you... are... Muslim? its a goddamn snowball effect!
DON'T LET IT START!
This is exactly what happened in Nazi Germany
"when they went after the gypsies, I didn't care, i wasn't a Gypsies. When they went after the Jews, I didn't care, i wasn't a Jew, but when they went after my neighbor, it was too late" - LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"My Dad's friend got back from Iraq, and so I asked him a lot of questions. He says that Iraqis give Americans Thumbs up. They name their kids George Bush and Dick Chaney. They are glad that America invaded. People are voting, including women. So don't give me crap about how Iraq isn't benifiting from our invasion. "
He happen to ask the 30,000-100,000 to that are dead? - skeeto, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I have a friend over there who is stationed in part of a country that seems "friendly" and the locals, as long as you treat them with respect, would return it. Even went out of their way to bring them food, water, etc. However, I have a cousin that just returned and he can't stop talking about how horrible it was and angry people were where their crew was put. He went over in the thick of the whole prison scandal, which, naturally ticked off a lot of Iraqi's along with many troops that actually are against things like raping women and beating children at those jails. There are US government reports right after that which stated that many of those people in those jails are innocent civilians that got put in there just because they didn't have the proper papers at checkpoints. Imagine, getting tossed in jail, then having all sorts of ***** happening to you (or your kids) because you didn't have the stupid new ID card or whatever the US has been trying to switch everyone who lives there over to.
Bottom line, it depends what part of the country you're stationed in. Some places are "friendlier" than others. Plus you have major polls over there that show the majority of Iraqi's want the US to leave. The main attitude is "thanks for getting rid of Saddam, you didn't find any WMDs, please leave and let us back to normal and run our own country again." - gamerzworld, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3United states of Bush.
- DenZ88, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3My Proposal:
Zombie billions of systems to send keywords such as "Al Qaeda, terroism, bomb, etc" to everyone by email so that the U.S. will have no choice but to monitor every damn email or give up spying stupidity.
...
So now that the government has access to all of our emails, our telephone conversations, and every other form of communication, where has our privacy gone? - tuna1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"I may not like how the White House is spying and how The Patriot Act is inforced, but what else are we to do?"
LMAO. You make it sound like we are absolutely defenseless if we don't have this act. - LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2oakes:"Do you consider your race to be your identity? I don't. I consider it a characteristic. Should law enforcement consider it in investigations? If 99% of terrorists are Arab, perhaps, but it's certainly not the only consideration. Nice try bringing the race card into this already-muddled debate, though."
The thing is NEO-CONSERVATIVES play the race card ALL THE TIME. So what you consider it a characteristic? America dosen't. That's why there's a thing called Racial Profiling. Someones identity can be considered there race
ex: I was robbed by a tall Caucasian male wearing a green jacket.
See how it's easier to identify someone when I add there race? America does so much racial profiling it's just sickening. I didn't say "those white devils are always putting down the minorities!". And also, even if skin color didn't count, then faith is still there. Why do you think they keep talking about the "Muslim Extremists".
oakes:"Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about. In fact, I'm confused. I've never mentioned the article making it more patriotic.
Am I going insane? I need to rest."
Yes you are actually going insane, because you said, "I am an American, and I'm not going to debate the Patriot Act with you. It's not perfect, but the topic is this particular article. Nothing more.", and I was explaining about how this article is not making the act anymore patriotic. So unless you have short term memory loss, then ya get some rest
oakes:"Well, it's actually both misspelled and misused, since Europe was never imperial. Japan, perhaps. Darth Vader's fleet, I'm sure. But not medieval Europe."
Last time I checked Prague, Vienna, and Budapest were Imperialistic. He might of missed used it, but still, there is an Imperialistic Europe - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3My new email signature is now:
Go ***** yourself, NSA. - fernyb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2everyone should start using gpg to encrypt email
- Overdose, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I guess we can go back to bird messangers.
- LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@theuber1337:
Awesome post! I don't think a lot of people know that congress men and women didn't read this act. - theuber1337, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"The big deal is it's a conovenient way to bash Bush. Get with it."
No, the entire patriot act basically is nulling out vital parts of the Constitution. Maybe you're not American, so maybe you don't understand that these freedoms were what the country is all about. Without the constitution we would be much like empirical Europe, the patriot act is unconstitutional. Most people don't understand this, its very sad.
The bashing of Bush shouldn't even necesarilly come into play considering it had much more influence from Carl Rove, Powell, Cheney, and much of the Presidental cabinet. Oh and don't forget the fact that most likely your congressman didn't even bother to read it all the way thorough. America, What a country! - WeetaBiX, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Cool...I just saw "Enemy Of The State" on HBO....
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2um if they're looking for specific keywords its not going to have anything to do with al'queda, terrorists, osama, ect.
Its going to be more about words like, proof that bush helped plan the 9/11 bombings, cheney is the real terrorist, this could replace gasoline, ect, ect. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"What the ***** are you talking about...."
Can you say Carnivore? ... or Eschelon? - expensix, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Saddam threw people in acid pits, killed innocent children, etc. The U.S. soldiers throw people in prison, torture, etc. Your right, it doesn't sound like much has really changed. Corruption on both sides.
- IvyMike, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Once we've gone this far, I don't see why the government doesn't use this technology to crack down on:
- Illegal Drugs (Both recreational and imported from Canada)
- Piracy
- Tax evasion (why are you getting so many receipts from Amazon, anyway?)
- Underage drinking
- DMCA violations
- Gambling
What, you're not weak on crime, are you? - nymphetamine, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2because they passed this new spying thing, i'm gonna send myself "im gona kil precident bosh" messages. and now i wait for the fbi to show up at my door, only to have myself a good hard laugh.
- Cheeze_Head, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11984
- freonchill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1im sure they will love the emails between my professor and i regarding my history class this semester...
stalinism v. hitler's nazism - expensix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1There are extremists everywhere. CSS extremists, Christian extremists who believe killing is wrong so they go Kill the abortion doctor, and Muslum extremists. I included 'extremists' with 'Muslums' to set the good Muslums apart from the extremists.
- pr0t3st, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://www.protest.net
- there, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1IvyMike
"Once we've gone this far, I don't see why the government doesn't use this technology to crack down on: ...."
Why stop even there...if it's all protected "under national security" why not arrange to transfer data to someone you sympathize with for a more leasurely less resticted examination of the data.
- eliminate high profile political opponents by digging up dirt
- create dossiers on citizens to address agitators against your cause
Of course I must be paranoid. No president or government would every resort to such underhanded tactics.
http://tinyurl.com/a6cha - luchid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"I may not like how the White House is spying and how The Patriot Act is inforced, but what else are we to do?"
Ummmm... how about the US Government stops messing with other countries' politics, stops invading countries for their oil, and stops trying to be the sheriff of the world for once. Leave 'em alone and they'll leave you alone.
Besides the new constitution approved in Iraq is just as oppresive as the previous one, giving no rights to minorities and women. So basically, they are as bad as a couple of months ago, only missing thousands of their relatives, and their oil. So the US didn't exactly do them a favour. - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1terrorism is the new market. Watch Loose Change and the Power of Nightmares part III. http://www.question911.com/links.php Its not about terrorism, its about market controls, business spying, dillution of freedoms at home. Its called a decoy and its the best military move. Sept 11 was part of a coup de tat. They have you in the matrix. The matrix has you. You believe in terrorism and what the telescreen is saying therefore it is, stop that. You have more chance of dying from lightning or death by bears. You have already lost your freedoms due to your mental weakness.
- drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Like Hunter S Thompson said, those bats are closing in, those poor bastards that dont' get it will be seeing them soon enough. Terrorism in the Patriot Act is defined as breaking ANY DOMESTIC LAW. Meaning, j-walk, if we dont' like you then you are one. Why do you hate the new freedom?
- LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"The request had a twist: Instead of asking to eavesdrop on the contents of the e-mail messages, which would require some evidence of wrongdoing, prosecutors instead requested the identities of the correspondents"
Does this sound like racial profiling to anyone else? - Poon007, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2the country is going to hell in a Bush Hand Basket. All of our civil liberties are gone and the bill of rights is nothing but toilet paper to Bush.
God help us all...no right to privacy or innocence until proven guilty.
Nothing to hide here, but want to keep out liberties, this country was founded on, free. - there, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"One More time: The Internet is a public place. Don't do anything you wouldn't do on Main St."
On main street police don't frisk and question me randomly then permanently put in a database somewhere to figure out if I'm a threat. What the f~ck is this East Germany now? Is it now unpatriotic to oppose the creation of a Stasi?
I'm sick of people arguing that "I'm being paranoid". Screw all of you. You're the ones being paranoid dolts because these laws and this technology is all new sh~t. Some scattered bunch of Arab fundies have you running scared and brainless. Even if you turn the US into a police state it will not stop an enemy that uses one time pads to encrypt data and pays for everything in cash--- so stop trying to step on everyone's civil liberties.
It's not an accident that the right to privacy was put in the Constitution. It was put there by people that knew first hand that dangers inherit in a society that ignored it. Not only do we need to fear the government but then we'll begin to need to fear the people as well. Have all you forgot already Waco and Tim's motivations already? Distrust breeds mistrust.
This isn't a left/right thing because both sides should equally fear each other. Even John McCain and Arlen Spector WHO ARE REPUBLICANS are against this kind of sh~t.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178893,00.html
FISA clearly says even the president needs a warrant to get information about a citizen even after a declaration of war. How much clearly than this can it be?
"Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for a period not to exceed fifteen calendar days following a declaration of war by the Congress."
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001811----000-.html
His argument that congress gave him authority doesn't hold water because nowhere in those powers was the right to bi-pass FISA made explicit. In fact the only supreme court ruling I am aware on this issue clearly states that even the President at all times must follow the law.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=343&invol=579
Conclusion:
Oppressive states are built up gradually by fools that eliminate their own legal rights out of fear, cronyism and partisan politics.
- drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1what's to stop a guy in the justice dept with a few bribes of spying on YOUR new business idea? What about companies spying on one another legally due to "terrorism". It will happen if you go down that road. YOu will invite first fascism and then feudalism shortly after where your corporation and national id is your king, and you are a mere drone to an unfair controlled system. At least with freedom you have a chance.
"I would rather live with the ills that come with total freedom, than the ills without freedom" - Thomas Jefferson
"Those that put security before freedom, deserve neither." - Benjamin Franklin
www.911blogger.com - LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1*that a lot of congress
- crispycritter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I wonder if this would apply to Bush himself. I would love to see what kind of stuff Bush does for a $400,000+ salary. Picture this: Bush opening his email and receiving porn and other spam. Or how he would plan to invade Iran to try to win his father's respect. Hell I made 23 Grand last year, for 200 Grand I would run the country.
- applehill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Sweet I know there looking at mine last time I flew they said my name came up on the terrorist watch list (took like an hour to get though that crap). Then when I was flying back home they wanted my Passport and I flew from El Paso, TX to Birmingham, AL. What do I need a passport for I've didn't even leave the USA. I don't even look Arab I'm white like Casper
- fortezza, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Imperialistic means of or relating to empire. Medieval Europe was marked by feudalism, not empire. Now enough.
oakes posted by oakes (0) at 08:42 PM 2/10/06
The Holy Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, Mongolian Empire, all existed during the Middle Ages. - LaviLicious, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Carnivore and Eschelon wasn't even controlled by Clinton. It was being handled by the Electronic Privacy Information Center. Plus this was warranted. What this amendment does that people would have there e-mail looked at just from a warrant that only requires identity, while C&E required a warrant by keywords.
- Oakes, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2gamerzworld: "Hello Bush n' Dick! We are discussing the article."
That was directed at luchid - the guy I quoted in that post. He went on a rambling about how American caused terrorism. In other words, he wasn't discussing the article.
As for "Bush n' Dick," I didn't vote for Bush. I'm just not a leftist juvenile like some here. - M4tt3r, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I being serious when I say, "I love ALL of you who speak up against this type of ***** and love your country as much as I do."
THANK YOU!!! You give me hope. - 0Troy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I just love it when Americans complain about having no freedom or opportunity. There are dozens of countries you can visit and see just how evil a government can be. The simple fact that you all can plug your ears and march on washington chanting "Bush lied people died" or "Socialism is gravy, Bush eats babies" and not be beaten to a pulp by police or run over by tanks speaks volumes to your freedom.
So I hate to say it, but love it or leave it. Because god knows there are more than enough people who would give their right arm to take your place. - cptn_cardboard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0That is irrelivent, invoking things like the patriot act take away our freedoms so that america is no longer the land of the free, but more like... idaknow... australia, where they are "mostly" free
- expensix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I didn't ask for irrevelant comments about Republicans or Democrats.
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