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- jambarama, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9Come on, if anyone thinks this is anything other than a witch hunt, you are dead wrong. I'm no microsoft fan, haven't bought any of thier stuff since Win98, but this is rediculous. They released a version without WMP, they released all kinds of technical information. What more does the EU want? I'll tell you, they want Microsofts head.
What about apple? They have a closed operating system (don't even tell me Darwin is the OS). OSX comes with iTunes. They don't have all their APIs published. How come the EU isn't after them?
Now I like apple, so I wouldn't want this for them, but it goes to show, the only thing going on here is a witchhunt. For once I agree with Microsoft. - 3lite, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8zubov said: "I hate Microsoft, but I'm with them on this one. One thing I hate more is when someone cannot articulate a request properly, and then when the requestee complies with their best guess of what the requester is looking for, the requester complains. This is the EU's fault for not being more clear."
Oh, so you have read the document Microsoft provided? Or do you just assume that MS is telling the truth? I'd rather believe the European Comission than a corporate statement.
I've read about this issue in a newspaper maybe two weeks ago, when the deadline approached. There it was said that Microsoft just doesn't respond to the Commision's complaints, and that the provided document didn't adress anything much.
I agree with dalurka here.
But hey, everybody is free to believe in what they want... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7the EU gets it's income from its member states, not from things like this
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Having actually seen a very small portion of the 12,000 pages of documentation with my own eyes (which is clearly more than anyone who has commented on this story can say), I can say that while I cannot tell you exactly what's in it (sorry, contractual obligation), I can tell you that the little that I saw was utterly useless to anyone. It was clear to me that microsoft is trying to ***** the EU, and it's nice to see that the EU is savvy enough to not take it up the ass.
- takeda, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Can someone please explain what kind of documentation the EU is seeking?
From my layman point of view I can walk into any Barnes and Noble and find hundreds of books on programming for windows. What am I missing?"
I doubt you will find any book describing how Microsoft Word documents are created, or how SMB protocol works. Those things are needed to allow other OSes work together with Windows. Microsoft doesn't want to provide such information, because that would allow user to make a choice what OS he/she can use. - snugsoho, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5To the EU $2.4m (€2.2m) a day is simply pocket money so this is hardly the EU trying to raise itself extra revenue but more the EU trying to protect it's member state citizens. As i see it as much as i don't particuarly like the EU in it's current state they have laid out a set of demands (and fair ones) to Microsoft and fore warned them of the conquences of breaking them, if Microsoft wishes to do buisness in EU member states then it MUST abide by the Unions decision.
I love how some people try to spin this into a US vs. the EU debate, get over yourselves for ***** sake. - takeda, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4"Just give up the damn antitrust cases already. It's embarassing. Instead of spending so much time and money on going after a company that everyone seems to be comfortable with, go after real problems. No one is stopping me from enjoying my Mac Mini. I can easily build a Linux box. Microsoft's "monopoly" doesn't even exist because they don't have 99-100% of the market. Desktop Linux and OSX together are about 10% of the market. There are choices... it's just that most buyers aren't going for them."
Actually what EU is asking from MS is to allow people like you to successfully interoperate with windows. Did you never had a problems with opening a windows specific file on your Mac? I'm hoping EU will succeed, this would make the final jump from windows to other OS much simpler (and that's what Microsoft is afraid of) - Galaxion, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4P.S. I have figures to back up that EU>USA for economy. This quote was pulled from the website of the World Bank )http://www.worldbank.org/)
"The European Union has the largest economy in the world, ahead of that of the United States of America with a 2005 GDP of 12,865,602 million vs. 11,734,300 million"
I believe those figures are in US$ - dalurka, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Microsoft is probably leaving out a lot of the interesting bits that the EU wants. It isn't hard to write 12000 pages full of crap and unuseful technical documentation.
Does anyone know where these 12000 pages can be found? It is perhaps public. - foetus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Microsoft's situation is akin to a sex offender. They had bad business practices for years, cleaned up their act, and no one will ever forgive them for it. Any move they make will be assumed to have criminal intent.
Apple, however, can take programs like Konfabulator, and just blatantly steal it... and their software is filled with Care Bear cuddles. I love OSX... but I have NO illusions that Apple is FAR more evil than Microsoft. - scotsboyuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@antoniojvr
The population of the U.S. is currently has a population of just under 300 million according to the CIA World Factbook, the EU has a population of almost 457 million according to the same source. In addition to that Microsoft is also able to sell to each of the 25 EU national governments, local governmnets within the nation states and to the EU itself of course.
No company is going to volunatrily pull out of any major market unless it absolutely has to. - Stranger678, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2So your position is that anyone who sides with MS ever....is a retard. Damn, gotta love those open minds. Never let anything like the facts of hte matter get in the way with your zealous crusade against a company.
- scotsboyuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Microsoft will also no doubt be considering the fact that more countries are set to join the EU in the near future making it an even bigger market for them than it already is.
- QuantaS, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Im not the biggest fan of Microsoft but this is ridiculous and really pisses me off
- Galaxion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It may be 2% of microsoft's annual income or whatever, but that is still a billion dollars. Shareholders won't stand for that sort of money being thrown away for many years.
- tarellel, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3I hate Microsoft, but it seems like that EU has been taking advantage of their international position as a Global Governing body. I'm all for MicroSoft, telling them to screw, not paying the fees, and filing as many claims against the EU as they possibly can. I mean what more could they want, Microsoft said they'd even liceness their OS source code, dam who would have thought they'd do that.
- HarryBauzonia, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Talk about not knowing who to pull for.....
One's as nasty as the other. - 3lite, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2steppir, you're talking loads of crap. Pulling out of the EU is nothing MS will want to do. You seem to think that the EU is just another country on the other side of the planet.. We're talking major business here.
- Stranger678, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@Gurkinjar
whether ms is right or wrong on this issue is immaterial according to punky, his statement that anyone who sided with MS in any issue EVer being a retard just shows the level of narrowminded zealotry headed by the anti-ms crowd. Me I don't care if they did it or not. I don't know enough info as I haven't seen the documents nor read the case file. I can however find it sad that others with so little knowledge of the case can proclaim so strongly under the belief that if MS screwed up once, they should found guilty for everything forever. - scotsboyuk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"No more language support besides they teach english in EU wonder why? Maybe because the EU members do alot of business with USA not to mention owes the USA Alot of money."
You do know that English is a European language don't you? We all make mistakes, but you might want to check your own use of English before commenting on it; your grammar is appalling.
Incidentally the U.S. isn't exactly debt free itself and its biggest investors happen to be European nations (Britain being the single largest investor in the U.S.supporting approximately a million American jobs).
"ANyhow MS pulling out of EU would hurt EU's economy BIG TIME not the other way around."
Hardly. The EU would simply turn to either Apple or Linux. Microsoft on the other hand would have just lost themselves a market that's bigger than the U.S. and given their competitors a huge market to run free in.
"The EU is made up of several countries the USA is one country always been for the most part :). You can't compare the two since EU isn't a country."
Actually you can compare then in terms of markets, the EU being a single market like the U.S. A company operating in one EU country can operate in all EU countries. - Yanks2435, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If you think 2.4mil is going to hurt MS where it counts, think again, that is not alot of money to them.
Gurkinjar: Windows doesn't come with bloat. If you want bloat, go buy a dell and see how much ***** they add on. MS should be allowed to put their software on their OS, Apple does it. MS can do whatever they want with Windows, in a free market the consumer will judge how good a move that is. - NeoTechni, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3"How can anyone not support the EU on this? "
Because EU is full of ***** in this case. MS gave them exactly what they asked for
"As for Apple, they have made dev. with their OS easy, even including dev. tools with the install discs"
So did MS. MS is well known for making the easiest of development tools. - chmilar, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Microsoft is "licensing" the documents, ie. you have to sign a contract and probably pay a fee to get them.
Microsoft's lawyers are masters at minimal compliance, and carefully leaving out crucial information. It is likely that the documents are not truly in compliance, and they are just running a PR campaign to look like the EU is persecuting them. - dufoes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0yanks2435: If you think 2.4mil is going to hurt MS where it counts, think again, that is not alot of money to them.
Really guys, $2.4M is nothing to Microsoft. In fact, that's only 0.0006% of their CASH holdings. The company really is a behemoth. The 497 euro fine that the article speaks of wouldn't even hurt them. For some reason Microsoft likes to keep a LOT of cash lying around...
Check it out for yourself: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ks?s=MSFT - Double-Z, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I still don't understand why governments can tell Microsoft what to do with thier OS.
- SupaDawg, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2""What about apple? They have a closed operating system (don't even tell me Darwin is the OS). OSX comes with iTunes. They don't have all their APIs published. How come the EU isn't after them?"
Well apple doesnt have 90%+ of the market."
AHA! I sure hope your not an ipod/itunes defender. What apple does with the ipod is no different than what ms does with windows.
I hate the EU. what a terrible idea. Euros throwing their weight around to hurt an american company? ... never saw that one coming. - xodex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0haha you guys are funny :)
- BenjoBanjo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I would be more inclined to believe that both MS and the EU are wrong to some extent, i mean who would you trust? Board members from a mega corporation or politicians?
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2The EU is full of it. Its not like MS isnt trying. I could see fining them if they didnt give them anything.
Any whats more, isnt this entire thing BS? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0yes, that is one of the most senseless comments i think ive ever read.
Maybe you should also learn to use a keyboard. No MOre mIXed CaPS.
Regarding the European's level of skill with the English language - those in glass houses .. and boy, yours is the most fragile glass ever concieved. - Dryden, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The only thing worse than big business is big government.
- SoccerBoy, on 10/12/2007, -3/+3zubov is right. This is the EU's fault, they demand things, but don't understand what they are demainding so, they cannot clearly define what they want.
- foetus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I babbled a little bit there (damned distractions at work while I'm trying to post!)... My jab at Apple is to illustrate that Microsoft can bundle little programs (Media Player, Paint, etc)... and everyone claims they're stomping out the "little guy"...
- humblemagii, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0If MS pulled out of EU we would finally be rid of all the Euro trash in games. I say MS pull out of EU so we don't need to put up with their crap in games. Once MS does this they need to release vista and make sure all games only work on vista :). No more language support besides they teach english in EU wonder why? Maybe because the EU members do alot of business with USA not to mention owes the USA Alot of money.
ANyhow MS pulling out of EU would hurt EU's economy BIG TIME not the other way around.
The EU is made up of several countries the USA is one country always been for the most part :). You can't compare the two since EU isn't a country. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0[quote]If I had a company and it turned into what Microsoft has today and some bizybody told me what I couldn't and could or what rules i'd have to follow to release a product, I'd ***** in there face.[/quote]
If you had a company like Microsoft, I'd throw a pie at you. - MongooseNX, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Can someone please explain what kind of documentation the EU is seeking?
From my layman point of view I can walk into any Barnes and Noble and find hundreds of books on programming for windows. What am I missing? - mongocrush, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wouldn't this be a lot easier if Microsoft just said withheld their product from European nations? They do have the upper hand here and screw having to pay fines to the EU. Then they can get a real O/S like Mac or linux.
- Rekkid, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Dufoes, the fine is 2.4 million A DAY. That's nearly 1 billion a year. That's a lot of money to piss away no matter who you are. Secondly, it's far from a secret that Microsoft keeps loads of cash on hand, like any major corporation. Microsofts savings comes from Bills paranoia in the late 80's. He always wanted enough cash on hand to pay the companies bills for one year. It's sort of unnecessary now, but investors always liked the idea.
- alex007, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0EU just needs enough money out of Microsoft to fight against VLC. Right? Whats the hole point of the antitrust case if it doesn't matter for the consumer? MS make a cripple release of windows, who wants it? Even if Microsoft made its entire OS source available for everyone to see, its only going to cause problems not solve anything. Looking at MS's source is a lawsuit waiting to happen.
- scotsboyuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Microsoft won't pull out of the EU, with a population of over 450 million people they can't afford to. So far in this thread only one person has seen (or at least claims to have seen) the document provided by Microsoft and he says that it is useless. If anyone else has seen it perhaps they can support that view or contradict it.
There are really only three institutions in the world with enough influence to take Microsoft to task; the U.S. government, the Chinese government and the EU; I for one am glad that the EU is taking a stand. - antoniojvr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@ scotsboyuk
Do you have any numbers to back this up? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"Because EU is full of ***** in this case. MS gave them exactly what they asked for"
I would imagine that you really dont know enough about the specifics of this to make that statement.
Same goes for everyone else saying similar things. - chicksdigme, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1The EU is created partly to neutralize US dominance in the world. The euro competes with the US dollar. What's up with the fuss about the US owning the Internet?
US companies, esp Microsoft represents the US' greed and monopoly and the EU is determine to give Microsoft a slap in the face. First with the Media Player now this :( - babbling, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Microsoft have not released these 12,000 pages as a public document. There is no way for free software programs to use this document unless they release it to the public, and allow people to freely use it to make their programs compatible with MS file formats.
The EU is correct in refusing Microsoft's pathetic attempt to dodge what is required of them. - Filoviridae, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The "Windows tax" has more to do with the PC makers than MS. I believe Dell was thinking about (if they haven't done it yet) offering a PC without an OS for Linux users.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Everyone here hates Microsoft. I don't understand, I bet most of you have (or had) a Windows box. Why is there so much hatred towards Microsoft?"
Maybe youve answered your own question there ;-) - charlescheese, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1"If Microsoft is going to support a regime like China and bend over backwards to screw the people there, I think they will do what they can to screw the people of the EU for a much lesser effort."
Ahh, so it's now Microsoft oppressing the poor Chinese, not the communist Chinese government. Boy...Microsoft IS powerful. I wonder when Bill Gates will start running down Chinese freedom fighters in Tienanmen (sp?) square? - tsupersonic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Hmm, let see, Anit-Microsoft fans on Digg rooting for the EU. Oh wait, it's just another day on digg. Everyone here hates Microsoft. I don't understand, I bet most of you have (or had) a Windows box. Why is there so much hatred towards Microsoft? I guess I'll never understand you guys.
- stimpack, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Go EU, it would be nice to be able to buy a PC without paying a Windows tax. It is just a shame we have to get Europe to do what our goverment should have done along time ago.
- bluerpk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I was just wondering the other day what would happen if Microsoft decided that they had made enough money and just closed down. I know it is a very hypothetical and silly idea, but just imagine.
I brought up this because as I see it Microsoft is a company trying to sell their products and it can choose not to sell them in any region. If the EU acts up, then probably Microsoft should just say we are closing down our operations in the EU, you guys be happy with Linux or OS X or whatever else you want.
Disclaimer: I am not a Microsoft supporter and have no love for their products. -
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