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Microsoft's Frustrating Chase After Google
mercurynews.com — Microsoft may have been willing to spend years developing Vista, the long-delayed upgrade of its Windows operating system, but when Bill Gates was presented with a plan for finally beating Google in Internet search technology, he gave the engineers just 100 days.
danzarrella- 755 diggs
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- rasterbator, on 10/12/2007, -39/+94Management. $250 per hour.
Engineers. $160 per hour.
Developers. $120 per hour.
Coders. $75 per hour.
Watching Apple constantly adding features to their OS,
while Microsoft removes features from their OS.
Priceless.- opitica, on 10/12/2007, -54/+20Yea, I'm sure that's what Microsoft's doing. Pull your head out of your own fanboy ass.
- Layzie, on 10/12/2007, -19/+79Microsoft is the lesser of two evils between it and apple. Sure glossy computers are nice but what about all the propriety software apple also pushes? Just because they're the underdog doesn't mean they're angels.
- estvir, on 10/12/2007, -13/+8There were what, 4 or so 'major' features removed ? Yeah, that's huge and it makes it even worse that removed ones like WinFS are essentially present in Vista (See: Jim Allchin intereview on WN).
- fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -24/+61I'm confused...
Apple nickel-and-dimes its users for every single upgrade and new "feature" and restricts program development on Apple products. It uses overly restrict DRM and locks users in to products which have physically embedded self-destruct mechanisms.
MS releases most of its stuff free, and encourages both commercial and hobbyist program development for their entire array of products. It licenses its DRM to anybody who wants to use it, and its hardware not only works with everything but keeps going and going...
Which company was the evil one again? - meatmcguffin, on 10/12/2007, -21/+29"Microsoft is the lesser of two evils between it and apple."
No chance. How much of MS's and Apple's code is open? I'll give you three hints : darwin, bonjour and webkit - masgrada, on 10/12/2007, -15/+9Coders really make $75/hr??
@Fatdog, Glad you like your job at Microsoft. : ) - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -12/+6"Apple nickel-and-dimes its users for every single upgrade" - fatdog789
If Microsoft were able to release significant updates to its OS every year/18 months, you can bet they'd charge you for them too. Note: SP2 is NOT a "significant update" features-wise (I know, because I use it). And since it takes Microsoft 5 LONG YEARS to release a new OS, that somehow equates to bargain pricing for you? Strange logic. Also, major OS X releases (read: FEATURE upgrades, not Service Pack upgrades) are $129. How much is a legal, non-OEM copy of XP Professional? How much is the top-of-the-line version of Vista?
"MS releases most of its stuff free" - fatdog789
Sweet, I can get a FREE copy of Vista to run on my Mac using BootCamp? Where do I sign up? - OddTSi, on 10/12/2007, -4/+10@meatmcguffin
Since when does how open or closed a company's source code is determine how evil they are? This Microsoft is evil and OSS is holier than thou attitude is just getting old and ridiculous. - iwa87, on 10/12/2007, -8/+13@Mythos, stop spreading FUDs.
Windows Live Desktop Mail, Free on XP. Mail on OS X Tiger is free. It comes along with the OS, it is part of the OS. When you upgrade to Leopard, it just so happen you have a free new version of Mail on it.
Visual Studio Express is Free on XP but is limited. To develop a serious app, with unlimited features you have to buy either the Microsoft Visual Studio Standard 2005 or Professional 2005, each costing $267.99 and $679.99. Xcode is an optional install that comes free with Mac OS X. It just so happen that when you upgrade to Leopard, you get a new and free version of Xcode that comes with it, which utilises the new technologies in the new OS. You never pay for Xcode updates, it's free online. Plus, Xcode - which comes free with the OS, allows you to develop full-blown application, unlike Visual Studio Express which have several restrictions.
You are however right on the .mac side. It is not free like FolderShare. But .mac offers seemless integration with it's iLife suite, making it easy for novice and expert alike to store data or do backups. - meatmcguffin, on 10/12/2007, -6/+7@Mythos
Free and open are not the same thing. The majority of free things on your list are usually built into Linux and OS X plus some of the stuff on the list is just stupid - a way of changing languages? a colour chooser? animated help characters?
Generally anything cool Apple comes up with is bundled into the next upgrade so every user is at the same level. It would make it so much harder if half your users using 10.4 could use core data while the other half couldn't.
@OddTSi
No idea, i only bring it up because someone mentioned it above. But i would prefer to at least know what a company is up to with their code and i trust Microsoft as far as i could throw a pie at bill gates.
@mythos
MSN Messenger is ***** add supported, (how pathetic is that), Spotlight is in tiger, MS doesn't update Virtual PC for mac users (or is that somehow Apple's fault?) plus Apple made boot camp free, Xcode updates are free and .mac sucks :) - Cerpin_Taxt, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9Let the flames rage on.
What really bothers me about Apple is that they have a kick ass OS and have ruined it with its ultra-proprietary nature. I will respect apple when I can run OS X on any x86 machine that I assemble. Microsoft was the devil when they talked about a TPM chip in computers. Apple does it and fanboys worship them.
Apple, get your priorities straight. STEVE JOBS' ***** MACWORLD KEYNOTE WAS ABOUT A CELL PHONE AND A MEDIA EXTENDER.... *****. Stop beating the ipod to death and do something with that OS of yours. Release Leopard in retail and support it with updates (updates... you know, like that konfabulator you invented) for 3 years. (I wont pay for an OS 5 times)
I'm dizzy. - diggingaround, on 10/12/2007, -5/+2
???
Microsoft after Google? Are you fu@king kidding me!!!??? Microsoft Corporation CAN NOT make their own corporate web site to work as it should on any other web browser but Internet Explorer.
Se it for yourself... use your Firefox to visit Microsoft dot com. (Opera works a little bit better)
"So boys you got 100 days to beat our enemy Google... Aaaahm, yes Sir Gates... we have just finished coding our corporate web site... the programmers will start coding the Google killer engine!"
(/sarcasm)
... - kroenecker, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6It's impossible to argue from the "free" point of view. Linux is completely free in more than one way. That's exactly why it's so much cooler than Micro$oft.
- astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4> What really bothers me about Apple is that they have a kick ass OS and
> have ruined it with its ultra-proprietary nature.
Wait a minute. I thought people bought Apple for the fashionable hardware, and simply endured the software that ran on it. Isn't that what roughly half the people say? - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Well Mythos, that's a very impressive list of free MS software (not), but you may want to refer back to the original poster whom I quoted to say:
"MS releases most of its stuff free"
Zero in on the word "most." I think the list you provided hardly represents a majority share of Microsoft's work. Or even close to it. A chat app and a desktop search tool ≠ Office, Windows, games, etc. etc. Seems Microsoft is not as generous as you portray them to be.
Oh, and you might also want to compile a list of features that will be available in Vista but not in XP (since you've done the same for Leopard>Tiger). Yes, features you end up PAYING for. Your argument is moot.
But keep on praising your benevolent dictator; makes no difference to me. - sirhomer, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Microsoft has been convicted of violating federal anti-trust law.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2[quote]Microsoft is the lesser of two evils between it and apple. Sure glossy computers are nice but what about all the propriety software apple also pushes? Just because they're the underdog doesn't mean they're angels.[/quote]
You see, and you didn't get Dugg down for that comment. It proves that Microsoft cloneboys are the ones that are attempting to silence dissent.
I commend all the Apple users here for having an open mind and having the courage to deal with the truth. It's all of us against DRM and proprietary evil. - eyreka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@fatdog
ditch your rose coloured glasses and take a real look at MS DRM -- especially as it relates to Vista - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4[quote]MSN Messenger? Free update for us. You pay for the new version of ichat in leopard
Desktop Search? Free update for us. You pay for the new spotlight on leopard
Virtual PC? Free update for us. You pay for parallels (even if it's not apple software).
WPF (NET 3.0)? Free update for us. You pay core animation in leopard[/quote]
MSN Messenger - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
Desktop Search - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
Windows Media Player - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
Internet Explorer - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
ActiveX - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
NET - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
System-wide DRM in Vista - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
NSA backdoors - Didn't want it. MS shoved it down our throats.
Oh yes, MS provides a lot of free stuff. Proprietary stuff meant to gain an unfair advantage in other markets, and maintain control of WWW standards--by poisoning them no less. Do you need to be reminded of what MS pulled with Java? Why Internet Explorer exists?
MS is a criminal organization convicted multiple times, and it continues to use its OS monopoly position illegally. I do not support Apple's use of proprietary DRM or protocols either, but MS is in a very different position from Apple. MS, not Apple, is the one with the OS monopoly, the giant ISP, hosting, and search engine, and TV network. - 0o0Moylan0o0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Microsoft is just beating a dead horse
- rasterbator, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@fatdog:
Nice FUD.
- dtd00d, on 10/12/2007, -4/+40100 days? Google takes (0.09 seconds). Good luck with that.
- fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -22/+9.08 seconds of which is used to retrieve the massive amount of spam that now pervades Google's database, and .00000001 of which is used to retrieve relevant matches.
Good luck to Google in regards to making their search engine relevant again instead of just being a portal for serving SpamSense. - Xuis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@Fatdog789
I would really like to see where you got this information, got any sources? - dtd00d, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@Fatdog: 0.08 + 0.00000001 = 0.08000001 != 0.09
Go figure.
- fatdog789, on 10/12/2007, -22/+9.08 seconds of which is used to retrieve the massive amount of spam that now pervades Google's database, and .00000001 of which is used to retrieve relevant matches.
- unicornhunter, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5***** ain't gonna happen. They've been trying to do this for years.
- trylleklovn, on 10/12/2007, -7/+2If you can't beat them.. join them.
- dtd00d, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's not like Google is a bunch of Agent Smiths running around and Microsoft is Neo to save the day.
I mean seriously Microsoft? Save the world? Yeah okay.
- dtd00d, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's not like Google is a bunch of Agent Smiths running around and Microsoft is Neo to save the day.
- flipjargendy, on 10/12/2007, -13/+5This is why i stick with Linux.
- deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -12/+8Microsoft problem is still that MSN Search sucks compared to Google. There's no compelling reason to use MSN Search, therefore there's no compelling reason to use MSN unless you're too dumb to change your homepage. As usual with MS products, MSN is just a bad clone.
- mongeau, on 10/12/2007, -15/+13Have you heard of Live.com??
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I use live.com sometimes, when I suspect Google is censoring something. With the customizegoogle extension for Firefox it is easy 1-step access to any major search engine without extra typing. So from that experience, I can see that Live still does not have the content that Google does.
Nor does it have alternative content. I see basically the same stuff as Google showing up. If it's going to be worth anything, at least it should do something that Google does not, rather than be a substandard clone of it.
- dixta, on 10/12/2007, -8/+29The day Microsoft pulls ahead of Google in search is the day the Zune beats the iPod.
It also happens to be the day everyone will get to witness pigs flying past their Windows, the day the moon suddenly turns blue and the day satan opens up a ski resort in hell.
There is no better example of "keeping up with the Jones's" than Microsoft's attempts at digital music and search. Zune and MSNSearch suck almost as much as Vista.- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Yep, you're right.
The day MSN search pulls ahead of google, and zune pulls ahead of ipod, will probably be the day iis pulls ahead of apache, windows server pulls ahead of linux, aero pulls ahead of aqua/aiglx, IE7 pulls ahead of firefox, and so on ad infinitum.
Microsoft are not in the business of being the best at what they do, they are in the business of being second best at what they do, and using the time saved to turn that second best into cash. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1[quote]Microsoft are not in the business of being the best at what they do, they are in the business of being second best at what they do, and using the time saved to turn that second best into cash.[/quote]
Actually, they lose a great deal on all of their clones. MS has a few cash cows, like Windows and Office, that keeps them going, everything else has been a disaster for them so far. MS believes these unprofitable clones are a long-term investment. I don't see how they can ever catch up by piling on new features without having any direction or focus. They will always lose to the tiny startup that comes out of nowhere--like Digg.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4Yep, you're right.
- diggelicious, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2why exactly are Microsoft so keen to have the strong hold on search engines?, what's in it for them?, surely it's not purely driven by advertising revenue?
- zdiggler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You rule the Search Engine you rule the internet!!
Like Yahoo, Google, Altavista etc. - Quix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13You underestimate Microsoft's pathological need to rule every aspect of technology.
- stoppedcode12, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Over half of Google's revenue are from their ads. This is only possible for Google because they're #1.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3When you've been dedicated to maintaining your market position through oscillations of deceitful subterfuge and rampant aggression instead of just making good products and standing behind them, power and influence become very, very important - more important than the software.
You'll find that the very worst thing you can do to provoke the ire of Microsoft is to gain any sort of serious presence where they want to be in control - look at NutScrape.
Google have warning, but they're a good company, so doubtless the seed of destructive machinations will be sown and they'll be torn to bits without being technologically bested.
- zdiggler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You rule the Search Engine you rule the internet!!
- mongeau, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I like the last quote: ``Don't underestimate Microsoft,'' Weiner added.
^^^ Now, is that pronounced Wy-ner or Wee-ner? Hmm... :-p- bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It looks like a German last name. "Weiner" would be pronounced "vie nehr", like "whiner" but w/ a V, and would mean "one who cries." Americanized, it's probably pronounced like a W instead of a V.
- zdiggler, on 10/12/2007, -20/+4I only likes Windows XP, the rest of the stuff should be uninstalled! I don't like MSN, IE, Windows Defender, Windows FW, Norton *.*, McCfee *.*, Windows Explorer, Windows Media Player, MSN.com, Microsoft.com, Bill Gates, Apples, Steve Jobs.
I like Firefox, Google, Servant Salamander, Dos, irfan view, cloneCD, Nero, Media Player Classic, Divx, Win Patrol, ThunderBird, winamp, VLC, ReGet, Paint.NET, BitPIM, old AIM(Very Old one), MS Street Trips, FFDshow. WinRAR, Xvid, Divx. ,mp3.- zdiggler, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1Nice digg down due to Steven Jobs in stuff I don't like.
how nice! - noamsml, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I'm tellin' ya, I've had Steve Jobs installed on my internet since last Tuesday, and I can't get him off! He's like some darn spyware clogging the tubes!
-Ted Stevens - OverlyCritical, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0@zdiggler
I digg you down for posting useless information. No one here cares about what you like/don't like.
- zdiggler, on 10/12/2007, -9/+1Nice digg down due to Steven Jobs in stuff I don't like.
- jtherrien, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16Windows Live is actually pretty good. It does everything that Google does, and some of it nicer... I don't think the average person really knows of it though. Google has become part of everyday language for internet searches.
- LocalScope, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5This is true. For instance, if you pull up google maps and live local, navigate to your location and search for a business type (like walmart). Now with live you can drag the map around and it will re-search to the location you are centered at. Google doesn't do that and it should. Makes finding restaurants easier.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1[quote]Windows Live is actually pretty good. It does everything that Google does, and some of it nicer[/quote]
Windows Live - like a woman, but with something extra.
- Qenton, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5This is really simple... The first one with something new and innovative in a particular area that gets a majority following wins.
You cannot play catchup. You must innovate and find a nitch.
Yahoo, Amazon, Ebay, Google, Youtube, digg, Mozilla, WOW, iTunes. These are companies have at one time or another won a particular round of the internet battle. As long as they keep things fresh they can hold on to there market share no matter what other companies come along and try to "duplicate" them. Microsoft can throw all the money they want at a particular problem but it will not make a bit of difference on getting that market share.- TheChihuahua, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5...nitch?
Would that be niche? - spisska, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5@Qenton
"This is really simple... The first one with something new and innovative in a particular area that gets a majority following wins."
You mean like IBM with desktop computers? Or Visi-Calc with spreadsheets? Or WordPerfect with word processors? Or Lotus with business application suites? Or dBase with databases? Or Hotmail with free webmail? Or Altavista with web search? Or RCA with television equipment? Or Jeep with off-road vehicles? Or Motorola with semiconductors? Or Sony with portable audio players?
I could go on but I think you get the point. A lead is a lead but must be preserved. Even (and escpecially) when your competition undercuts your product on price, outperforms your product, and/or acts illegally in promoting their product.
Google products are still better than any comprable MS (or other) products simply because they're faster, simpler to use, more accessible and they simply do the necessary job better. For example, Google Maps kicks the hell out of anything that MS or MapQuest has exactly for this reason -- it's simpler and faster. I need directions to a given address, not a 3D rendering of what the building looks like (once I get there, I'll see what it looks like).
And Google's products are better mostly because of small yet brilliant innovations. For example, adding an attachment to an email thorugh any other wemailer involves a separate screen and an enforced wait while the attachment is uploaded and scanned. In gmail, this happens in the background, allowing the user to write while the attachment is uploaded. A small thing on the surface but one that has an enormous
- TheChihuahua, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5...nitch?
- zdiggler, on 10/12/2007, -12/+5Live.com sucks! Doesn't work properly with Firefox. I can't drag windows or close them!!
If the site don't work with FF you don't get my visit!- jtherrien, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Works 100% fine for me in Firefox 2.0.0.1. I fear you may be trying to spread disinformation... It's completely cross-browser compatible afaik.
- mrblonde314, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Anything you can do I can do better, I can do anything better than you.
- noamsml, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6No you can't
- Dracos, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Microsoft's problem is that they try to dictate one way for everyone to use their PC. After 30+ years, they stall haven't realized that each person has the potential to work differently than anyone else. Never mind that the "1 Microsoft Way" is often totally backwards or bizarre. People don't like the way MS wants them to do things; they can't (or don't know it's possible to) escape this on the desktop, but they can and do on the Web.
Long story short: MS is still wasting time, money, and effort trying to herd cats, with an iron fist.
Several details in the article also allude to how internally disorganized MS has become. Not only do their teams/divisions/products not interoperate well, but... am I the only person who's noticed that quotes from MS execs contradict the point the author is trying to make? Several examples in this article alone.- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1[quote]Microsoft's problem is that they try to dictate one way for everyone to use their PC. After 30+ years, they stall haven't realized that each person has the potential to work differently than anyone else.[/quote]
I hate to say this, but Apple is even worse in this regard. That's one reason why I'm still a Windows user, even though I wish MS would be nuked off the face of the Earth.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1[quote]Microsoft's problem is that they try to dictate one way for everyone to use their PC. After 30+ years, they stall haven't realized that each person has the potential to work differently than anyone else.[/quote]
- h3r086, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I think MS's biggest problem is that they don't try to make any thing for themselves.
"Google getz all 'da hits! WTF! Lets make one!! It'll be better!!"
or
"Apple gotz'a MP3player they are leeching loads of cash off'a peeple!? Weut! Lets make one!"
or ofcorse...
"Hmmn... IBM gottz that new operating system..." haha
Don't get me wrong, I'm an avid Windows fan... only because Linux dosen't have Directx... damnit.- bmartin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Feel free to digg me down if you like... but what would Linux need DirectX for? I think that if it were both legal and necessary, Linux would have an open source implementation of DX. Wine supports DX, but other than that, I see no need.
- jake13jake, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Reading about that Virtual Earth thing just shows Microsoft's lack of innovative ability. There are like a million things I would want to develop into something like that.
- Tippis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3For some reason, the good old Joel quote comes to mind: "The very fact that Google invented MapReduce, and Microsoft didn't, says something about why Microsoft is still playing catch up trying to get basic search features to work, while Google has moved on to the next problem: building Skynet^H^H^H^H^H^H the world's largest massively parallel supercomputer. I don't think Microsoft completely understands just how far behind they are on that wave."
(from http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html) - wastegas, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Is that a chair I hear flying across the room?
- bdmbdm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Because only giving 100 to engineers is really going to boost up productivity...
What I admire about Google so much is they really treat their employees with respect. They give enough breaks and allow employees to work on side projects during work hours. And they give free food!
Google > Microsoft - BangoSkank, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Microsoft Stock up by 33 % in the 6 months, they are doing something right.
- chevyorange, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Yeah, Apple's hasn't gone up that much in 6 months!
- placebofx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2The only reason I use google is because the start page is so clean.
- minorproblem, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Have you actually tried www.live.com it is a clean interface even if it is an exact copy of the google homepage.. try checking things out before you comment.
- jsusanka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3"Google Chief Executive Eric Schmidt predicted that open Web-based standards would ``sweep aside the proprietary protocols promoted by individual companies striving for technical monopoly'' in 2007.
``The past few years have taught us that business models based on controlling consumers or content don't work,'' Schmidt wrote."
this is my favorite part - it is about time - I as a consumer am sick of having to have a certain web browser or a certain OS or a certain plugin for web pages to work. this nonsense has got to stop.
anybody who codes their pages for a specific browser should seriously consider a career change. whether it be for an internal intranet for a coporation or the internet. - stockjones, on 10/12/2007, -2/+0I am in no way anti MS, in fact I respect Bill Gates a lot, but this is one war Microsoft will not win. Google (and Yahoo to an extent) are it in the area of the search engine. It doesnt matter how pretty, peepy or whetever you make your search.. Its not gonna happen Microsoft.
And Im not a big fan of Eric Schmidt, but he is right about the open standards movment. He is wrong that consumers care, they dont. Only geeks care. - wilhoitm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Roz Ho, please make mini Office apps for the iPhone. It is Microsoft's only hope!
- kdehead, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1why bother going to a microsoft site when you can go to:
http://www.flashearth.com
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