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67 Comments
- ravenmuffin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20Well, if they wanted Vista to be adopted by the science and engineering community, they kinda had to.
OpenGL is a cross-platform industry standard, taught at universities and used extensively in science software.
DirectX is a proprietary Microsoft technology for (non-Doom engine) games.
Do the math! - schmedly, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16"OpenGL is just a spin-off from SGI's IrisGL with a whole bunch of vendor specific extensions, it's hardly some competing product."
That's probably the most uneducated explaination of OpenGL I've read in a long time. If you knew anything about the ARB or OpenGL versioning, you'd know it's a far cry from it's IrisGL roots these days. You'd also know that nearly all the the extensions worth using are not vendor specific, but simply originate from either nVidia or ATi. You'd also know that most extensions get rolled into the core with new versions. AND, you'd also know that with each passing version, Microsoft has failed to update it's OpenGL.dll to faciliate usage of CORE technology without the use of extensions. - Sottozero, on 10/12/2007, -21/+36For the love of God, knock off the "M$" crap. This isn't Slashdot.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16The whole fiasco could be viewed as a successful campaign of FUD mounted by Microsoft against developers and hardware manufacters who support OpenGL. For the longest time they allowed unchecked rumors to spread that their plan was to disable OpenGL support on Vista's default desktop.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13"Somehow I think it's people like you who are spreading FUD especially since OpenGL isn't even a competitor of Microsoft."
openGL isn't really a competitor (excusing the fact that it's in direct competition with microsofts directX product) however, linux and macOS and the like are... and guess what? they don't really have the option of using/implementing directX. so if microsoft has all these game developers only using DirectX (making a linux/mac port damn near impossible) what they're really doing is stopping avid gamers (like me) from kicking their filthy windows habit and moving all the way over to linux/macOS.
microsoft always uses it's dominance in one market to affect all it's other ones... why do you think they're happy to lose billions in the console market? or even develop directX in the first place? i mean no one "pays" for directX where's it's market value?
(this post contains rhetoric and the use of subtle insinuation) - asmodeus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The point is that before this news, OpenGL in Vista whether the implementation was produced by the card manufacturer or not, couldn't have direct access to the video card while the compositing/D3D desktop stuff was running without going through D3D.
- Philbert, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"If OpenGL wants to compete for gaming, then it needs better games than Doom and Quake and Prey and such."
Who said anything about gaming? This would've really screwed things up for a lot of us 3D animators. - BGFeltenink, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I guess you didn't comprehend the 'cross-platform' part of it. Even if developed on Linux it might be necessary/useful to have it work for Windows too.
- joshduck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Adding three different implementations so that developers can achieve the best results for any given situation is anti-competitive? If Microsoft were really being anti-competitive then they would have just added MSOGL and ignored the uproar.
- ahewgill, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"If OpenGL wants to compete for gaming, then it needs better games than Doom and Quake and Prey and such."
"Who said anything about gaming? This would've really screwed things up for a lot of us 3D animators."
and us 3D researchers. - joshduck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Yes, the 1.4 implementation (MSOGL) was just a wrapper, and was purely for windowed apps. They also offered real OpenGL support in fullscreen mode.
The real news in this link is the "Windows Vista ICD" implementation, which should allow true OpenGL support in windowed apps. - mikm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Funny. I had a similar dream in which Steve Jobs had a rock thrown at him for every DRM-crippled song downloaded off iTunes.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9
OpenGL >> DirectX - ChileanGoD, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Long live OpenGL!
- mgreenwald, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Adding three different implementations so that developers can achieve the best results for any given situation is anti-competitive? If Microsoft were really being anti-competitive then they would have just added MSOGL and ignored the uproar."
Obviously that's not what I meant. I was referring to them secretively not adding support in the first place. - MrSpontaneous, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5OpenGL will have UT2k7 and its corresponding engine, which, if I read the spiel correctly, is being used by several developers for their upcoming games.
- joshduck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"Anywho, stop being so susceptible to FUD and read up. OpenGL was never going to be hindered. Anyone who knows anything about OpenGL knows that on windows the OpenGL drivers are provided by the videocard."
That was the whole problem with Vista. Because Aero is Direct3D based OpenGL could not get control of the hardware in windowed applications. Imaging Aero as a fullscreen Direct3D game, you can't just go and create an OpenGL window, because Direct3D is already controlling the hardware. This article details the various workarounds that solved the problem. - LoneStar, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Yay Quake 3!
- joshduck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You wouldn't be saying that if you were a games or application developer who relied on decent OpenGL support. A lot of people will be relieved to hear this.
- Klowner, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And GLSL is just an imaginary thing or what? All the DirectX fancy crap is available in OpenGL as ARB/EXT extensions.
- The_Decryptor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4it wasn't FUD, this article is about the 3rd option they have done, the Vista ICD.
Before all their was going to be was MSOGL (Slows it down), or the legacy ICD (disables desktop compositing).
I'm glad MS have gone down the "VIsta ICD" route, it's essentially that OS X does with OpenGL app's, and it doesn't cause much of a slowdown (if any). - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here is a link to the blog then:
http://blogs.msdn.com/kamvedbrat/archive/2006/02/22/537624.aspx - hormelmeatco, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5There was never really a problem with OpenGL in Vista. The stuff about it being crippled was FUD from the start. Basically, everyone is complaining about the default implementation of OpenGL from Microsoft, when just about everyone with a video card (integrated or discrete) would be using an OpenGL implementation from their video card manufacturer (one that could actually use the hardware) anyway.
Even if the stock MS OpenGL implementation in Vista is crippled, it's an improvement over the one in XP which, if you have a video card, you're probably not using anyway. - smithco, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Exactly! I write software in the "science community". We were able to make versions on several platforms precisely because the OpenGL part was easy to port. Thus, an old IRIX suite now prospers on Linux, Windows & OS X.
- DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Read the article man.
- gusx, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Well, this is somewhat good for the linux community. I remember the linux fans complaining (on Slashdot) when they first heard about how OpenGL performance would be decreased in Vista.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2RTFA, junior. All they did was write a wrapper that calls their Direct3D layer.
- mgreenwald, on 10/12/2007, -8/+10This is how Microsoft treats competition. I am not a Linux or OS X zealot but that is anti-competitive behavior plain and simple.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7The title is misleading. Microsoft never implemented OpenGL 1.4 in Vista. All they did was write an OpenGL wrapper that calls their Direct3D routines. In essence, they've crippled the performance of OpenGL by having it processed by their Direct3D layer that does the actual work. This way Microsoft can guarantee that the performance of OpenGL games will always be worse than that of DirectX games. Thanks for the innovation Microsoft.
- ZachPruckowski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Yeah, but if you're a game developer who finds out your game isn't going to work at more than 50% effectiveness on Windows, you're probably re-writing yourself to use DX9 or DX10 right now. I bet they scared a few developers before coming clean.
- LoneStar, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5i agree
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1We need better rootkit support in Vista, for the ultimate DRM experience.
- DiggerT, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"1) Rumors come out that MS will not natively support OpenGL in Vista -> MS is teh evil
2) MS Says they will support OpenGL in Vista -> MS is teh FUD
People are crazy"
well if they had just said they will support opengl from the begining then there would be no complaints! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2If you are writing programs, OpenGL and Direct3D aren't things you implement, they are things you use. Are you planing on starting your own video card manufacturing company?
- SniperGX1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4I heard this was sparked by a dream bill gates had where vista was released and microsoft met a firey demise at the hands of angry DRM abused consumers
- joshduck, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2"DirectX is not a layer you can build openGL onto."
Yes, that is what the MSOGL functionality does. - blargsoup, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5That's right. They've always planned to support it, but weren't enthusiastic about correcting the rumor that they wouldn't. DirectX 10 should be quite a victory for ATI. If OpenGL wants to compete for gaming, then it needs better games than Doom and Quake and Prey and such.
- Snarfy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Exactly my point. ARB/EXT extensions are by definition non standard. By doing it in DirectX, Microsoft controls the standard, a standard in which they must control if they want to support modern hardware.
- Llan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2A link to the OpenGL homepage will not be useful very long...
- Erty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0gamedev.net
You can use most languages as long as there are bindings for it, but openGL is written in C and so most apps using it are written in C/C since that's the industry standard..
Most Direct3d apps are written in C/C aswell, but f.ex. C# is an alternative.
This is pretty old news anyway. - joshduck, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2This has been public for a while now. I can see why this is necessary though, obviously Microsoft are not going to use OpenGL for hardware powered windows, and you can't render OpenGL to a DirectX surface. On the positive side, this won't affect full-screen applications and if you disable Aero then OpenGL will work normally.
Edit, just read the full article. Looks like OPenGL will work normally in all situations, my bad. - elnerdo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Finally? Vista's not even OUT yet. Hell, it won't even be out for over half a YEAR.
- Snarfy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2
OpenGL support was always there. People bitched that it was just a layer on top of directX, making it less efficient, which is true, but from an operating system's point of view, required, especially when machines have more than one GPU to manage. IMO DirectX is no longer a competitor to OpenGL in this frame of reference. DirectX has become the new HAL that you write your APIs like OpenGL on. If you were to do it in OpenGL you'd have to add so many extensions to deal with hardware that it wouldn't really be OpenGL anymore. - DigitalDud, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Dugg because I'm the Eli who asked about it.
- seamushc, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Rootkit FTW!!!
- jer2eydevil88, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1All this talk about OpenGL and Direct X... Anyone actually know how to implement these things when programming? I can't find a tutorial on any sites and even worse I can't even find a good resource for what language to do the backend in.
- luke--, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Looks good, openGL shouldn't be a problem in Vista.
- citrusfizz, on 10/12/2007, -10/+9people are intitled to there opinion.. if i wanted my user name to be M$_$UX would you flame me about that too?
all the guy asked is why did they let it go on for so long.. - hammy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Where did you get this crap? DirectX is not a layer you can build openGL onto.
- Laughingman234, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2YES! First decent thing done by microsoft!
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