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194 Comments
- FunkyWitDaSysTm, on 10/12/2007, -13/+66same crap, different day.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+51Not if they also have one or more laptops. I hate buying a laptop and being told "sorry, you HAVE to have Windows installed on it". What a waste of money. You end up paying for the Microsoft OS and then all the "Works" software and crap they want to throw in. Meh.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -8/+42What an absolute load of bollocks!
Don't they realise that people don't neccessarily want to use windows, or that a huge proportion of PCs are replacment machines?
Oh, wait. They DO realise this! Ass monkeys! - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+21"Microsoft doesn't want you to be able to buy a PC without an OS."
Wow. I thought this article was going to be from 1999. - furtwan1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20summary of everything on digg today:
Microsoft sucks
Google is the best at everything
Apple is better than you
Linux rocks
PS3 sucks.
You can use this as summary of digg for tomorrow too! - Gregd, on 10/12/2007, -18/+34With all of their monopolistic litigation happening around the world, I'm a little surprised by this....I must admit.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -14/+26They key phrase here is "rest of the world".
Remember that in America, Microsoft was given a free pass. They went from their heads on the chopping block in the late 1990s and 2000 to a situation where everything against them more or less just melted away and was forgotten about when the new administration came in.
I'm sure the new administration had nothing to do with it, however. After all, the government never has conflicts with private industry and government officials. I mean, if I suggested that, you might think I was crazy and expect me to start suggesting that high officials have oil ties! - pimpybra, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15So stupid. When you buy a Dell computer, it comes magically pre-loaded with so much CRAP that should NOT be there. Either you reinstall from scratch, which you can't w/ what Dell gives you, or just manually uninstall all the trash.
That or install linux ;) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+16So you guys are up in arms about this?
Apple wont let me buy a mac without OSX being installed. Can I get PO'd at them too? - ahoier, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14lol. risk to your customers? how so? If someone is wanting to buy a computer WITHOUT an OS, they (or I would think so anyways) KNOW how to properly install an OS..
- radixus, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11I really wish computer makers in the US would provide an option to have a pre-loaded OS or without. I find it so amazing why they just can't give people the option. It's not that hard to manufacture a PC without an OS installed.
If you are like me I already own a Windows XP Professional license. Why should I have to pay for another license for a new computer that will replace the machine I have my current XP license loaded.
It just doesn't make sense. I don't need two licenses for XP Professional for one PC! - forgetfulca, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11While on the face this is about piracy, it's really about control. Machines without os's are being staged by Someone In The Know, and that someone might not pick windows (legit or otherwise)
Machines that don't have windows installed do Microsoft no good. You can't finagle an office license, a terminal services license, a service license and/or an XP license out of something running knoppix. You don't sell windows server XX to support a machine that doesn't have windows (generally). You certainly don't use windows media player or IE, and even more of their influence slides.. Their os sales are important, for sure, but nothing is so important as keeping the gravy train firmly on the rails. That scenario starts to unwind the lower the percentage of windows machines goes.
I wonder if it would be possible to model just how far down the number of windows machine (as a percent of all desktops) has to go before the paradigm breaks? - drumt, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13No prob...I build my own.
But does that mean they will eventually go after the moboco's? Or the box builders? - aliendave, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15Most people who use *nix and other alternatives just build their own computers anyway.
- gigabitten, on 10/12/2007, -2/+11geez!! how many times to people have to pay for windows in order for it to be "legal"
- Ace25, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Completely agree. At work I just ghost our new Dells with our image and its done in 10 mins tops.. but my neighbor wanted a PC so I found a good deal on a Dell for them.. the day it arrived I spend over 6 hours just UNINSTALLING the crap that came preloaded. McAfee was the worst, had to actually finish the install that was started by dell, register online, open a confirmation email and follow the link, all in order to get it to uninstall. Had I known it would have been a 6 hour process when I started I would have just formatted from the get go.. now I know.
And on the topic, seriously, how many people BUY and OEM PC and want it just for Linux? I have never met anyone like that, all the *nix people I know build their own PCs and I don't see that ever changing. Heck, I admit, I am more of an XP person than a *nix person and I would never consider buying an OEM PC just because I have been building my own since 286 days and find it cheaper and easier to build it myself. A phillips screwdriver isn't something magical to me and thats really all you need to build a PC. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10@stalinlad:
"Why can't I reply to a reply?"
You can only reply to the first level messages, because it allows discussions to be grouped into subtopics of sorts. However, I think they limit it to the first level so that you don't end up with deep nested threads. Each sub-level of a thread is indented. After several levels in the nested thread, you would end up with a one-inch wide message that takes up ten verticle inches.
I think it's a good compromise, though it's sometimes a little bit of a pain. - TaylorTAP, on 10/12/2007, -4/+12Let me guess this is because people aren't smart enough to install an OS? That is what Microsoft is saying when they put out PR like this.
- willizm, on 10/12/2007, -14/+22Keep in mind that 90% of the population doesn't know how to format and install an OS anyway. I think what is being said is that a PC should be sold with some kind of OS on it whether it be windows or linux based.
Also, people that are truely smart about PC's build thier own anyway. - DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8Absolutely! Even a re-install from a standard (albeit very hard to come by these days) Windows disk is an improvement for the crapware that Dell ships their boxes with. If it's a new model for me (as per the ones I got yesterday) I boot off a knoppix or ubuntu live cd and copy the "DRIVERS" directory off of it, then it's fdisk/format/reinstall for you baby!
I can't get over the amount of crapware that pretty much all new boxes come loaded with these days. I suppose the vendors think that they're "delivering value". It's not just me either, a friend who freelances fixing PCs for folks says he's seen a marked increase in people who bring him their unopened new-in-box computers and say "clean that up for me please". - w0rd, on 10/12/2007, -9/+16This is such *****.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8OK, Then i choose LINUX!
- DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Exaclty... This isn't a new approach for microsoft. Here in Australia their OEM/Partner propaganda has been warning of the terrible (causes cancer, starves third world children, god kills a kitten) dangers of selling a PC without an operating system for at least eight or ten years.
This is just standard run-of-the-mill Microsoft propaganda, and it's just standard run-of-the-mill ignored by all but the most sycophantic of 'partners'.
Nothing to see here folks, move along please! - DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"Why should I have to pay for another license for a new computer that will replace the machine I have my current XP license loaded."
Because if you don't, god will kill a kitten.
Seriously though, somewhere in the eula there's likely to be something about the license not being transferrable between PCs. That might not carry a lot of weight in a courtroom, but it certainly sounds like The One True Way(tm) to Microsoft and their BSA buddies, so they feel absolutely free to strongarm you into paying your microsoft taxes. - mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Microsoft's dealings with OEM's is still under a lot of scrutiny, and a lot of rules have been put in place about the types of contracts they can negotiate."
And it's blatantly obvious by now to all that none of that is doing any good. Yet no one in the current administration is doing anything about it.
Btw, some people in the UK need to get together and sue Microsoft if they pass this. It's clearly anti-competitive and that makes it an anti-trust crime. This having anything to do with piracy is just pure BS. Utter nonsense.
I wish MS could get it's wish and no one possibly could pirate Windows. The use of other OSes would become far more widespread to the point that even software companies and hardware manufacturers would have to support them or lose a lot of sales. MS is so arrogant that they believe that all of these people would pay for Windows because they just can't live without it. Some would, but many wouldn't. If Windows is so great then why are there people switching to other OSes now when they could just pirate a copy of Windows? - matts0344, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Hahah its so true, I was thinking this same thing about an hour ago. Its very predictable.
You forgot "The Nintendo Revolution is going to rock" and an AJAX topic. - aaronm67, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5That's how a lot of bargain PCs are able to be sold, though. Software companies pay to have their trial software on there, which lowers the price of the PC.
- Scourge, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5For the last time, APPLE MAKES THIER FREAKING OWN COMPUTERS, MICROSOFT DOES NOT, Please get off the internet if your comprehension skills cannon comprehend this.
- SuperBeast, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Apple makes the computers though. Microsoft doesn't make the computers that the big retailers sell.
- nightfox, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Imho, it is not really the fault of Linux why it doesn't support some devices that were made to work only in Windows (such as some winmodems). The device's manufacturer doen't want to release the code for it. It is a hasty generalization to say that support for laptops is bad. In fact, Ubuntu runs on PPCs and some IBMs.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7I can't remember ever buying a PC that was made by microsoft. And your point is?
- Rajio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4And I'm sure Sony doesn't want anybody selling Xboxes either, whoopdee doo.
- SnowFire, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I just recently bought a laptop from Gateway, and I'd like to state that although it is nice that it came bundled with an OS which was Windows XP Media Center Edition, the OS itself doesn't really bother me as much, it's the crap that is shoved alongside with the OS, like AOL and Symantec. Worse still is that if for any reason you have to reinstall the OS, the Rescue DVD comes neatly packed with all that garbage, so you're going to have to spend an extra hour or so uninstalling junk from a clean install.
As far as an OS included with the hardware, it isn't a bad idea, what is a bad idea is to push consumers to only one choice OS like most manufacturers do, because this undermines choice for consumers. - Daryl209, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I guess you dont read history books.
The point I'm trying to make is Microsoft is trying to go "Nazi" on us by urging vendors to not sell PCs without OS's. They want EVERY computer to have Windows just like Hitler wanted EVERYONE to have blonde hair and blue eyes. - Mousse, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Apple makes their computers. It's a valid point: You can't compare Microsoft telling the computer vendors to preload their OS with Apple preloading their own computers with their own OS.
If Microsoft started making their own hardware I'd have no beef with them having Windows preinstalled. - sporkwitch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Why would I waste a dollar on windoze when I can get it for free? Or better yet........[F6]"http://gentoo.org/"[enter] There we go, much better ^_^
- merreborn, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8If I bought my PC from Microsoft, or if Dell sold their own OS, your analogy might hold.
However, Microsoft does not build PCs. Dell, HP, Gateway, Sony, and a few thousand tiny shops build PCs. And if Dell/HP/Sony/Bill's Computer Emporium wants to sell me a PC without windows Microsoft has no right to stop them. - sigmaman2, on 10/12/2007, -7/+11No.
Why? Because you are buying the whole setup from Apple. Apple makes the hardware AND software under one roof.
Microsoft only makes the software. They are using their monopoly clout to force the hardware makers into bundling Windows with their hardware. Microsoft is not a hardware company, but they illegally control the hardware companies. - diskopo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5They do? That doesn't make sense. Why would they have to pay MS for an OEM license if they're not including an OEM version of Windows with a particular machine?
- mistshadow2k4, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4"I find that driver support for linux tens to blow in general. I like to bitch about that, but I also understand the problems causing those limitations. That said, linux support on laptops is very good. Sometimes there are problems getting the 3D accelleration of onboard video cards to work, getting the wifi to work and occasional battery/sleep/standby problems."
I used to feel that way but not anymore. I have an old Epson printer that there maybe something wrong with. I plug it into Windows and the drivers for it don't work. I searched the Internet to find updated drivers; those didn't work either. But it works just fine on Linux.
In guess some drivers for certain hardware are actually better on *nix than those provided by the company to run on Windows. Of course, others don't work as well -- looked at from the opposite side on Windows, you can say the same thing. It's still unfortunate that so much hardware isn't supported, such as this old Visioneer scanner I have. Of course, if these hardware manufacturers were required to put out a free development kit for others to write drivers to run on other OSes there wouldn't be a problem, would there? But none of them are going to do that because of Microsoft. - samdu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4In other news, water is wet. >sigh< Microsoft will never learn.
- leonbev, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You forgot the obligatory "Firefox rules", "IE sucks", and "Web 2.0 startups are awesome" topics.
- MrDiaz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I don't know about you guys, but this sounds more like a monopolist idea to me.
- kalisphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+31) Apple makes the hardware and the OS. Sony makes the OS for the PS2, as well as the hardware. A Nintendo Game and Watch is Nintendo hardware and Nintendo software. Microsoft sells the hardware for the XBox 360 and *gasp* the software. No one gives a ***** about any of this. You know why? Because it's vertical integration.
2) Having established that, we're going to work (slowly, so you won't have a stroke) on understanding why people don't like Microsoft doing this. Okay. So I can't go to Wal-Mart (which is not Microsoft) and buy a PC without Windows pre-loaded at extra cost. I can't go to Dave's PC Store (which is not Microsoft) and buy a PC without Windows pre-loaded at extra cost. In short, Microsoft is forcing companies to sell their software in such a way that the consumer has no choice but to pay for Windows. This is kinda like not being able to buy a hot dog at a baseball game without Ken Griffey's mitt as a wrapper. It's extra cost for something you don't need that (believe it or ***** not) is not necessary.
3) To continue, let's explain why pre-loaded Windows is bad. For one, it costs the consumer, even though they might (for instance) attend college and be able to get Windows XP for $10. Secondly, it supports Microsoft when their product will not necessarily be used -- which costs the consumer and the manufacturer, with no cost whatsoever to Microsoft. Thirdly, it deprives the consumer of choice. Rumor has it that this is a free market -- so why can't BeOS be loaded, at the customer's option. Or Linux, or OS/2, or OPENSTEP? You see where this is going? Keeping up okay?
4) Read the ***** discussion -- about sixteen prosies already made the exact same jerkoff quasi-point that you did, and were already shot down because you are incapable of knowing a sound comparison when it bites you on your ass. It's not asking that much. Just ***** read the discussion. - leonbev, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6"Because People like Mac OS X" is a pretty stupid reason. Some weiros like Windows, too, but that's not why it comes pre-installed. How about "Because Apple owns the hardware platform, and can do as they please", instead.
That arguement doesn't work for Windows, though... There is no such thing as a "Microsoft" computer (no, the XBox doesn't really count as a computer), so there is no good reason for a forced Windows installation on Dell/HP/Lenovo/etc computers. - Utopian, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5I think they're trying to say that supplying a PC without Windows pre-installed is putting the customer at risk from pirated versions of Windows.
- greatromance, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5shut the hell up microsoft, this is *****
- gronne, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Gosh I wonder why. In other news, McDonalds doesn't want you to buy Taco Bell instead of burgers. This is lame.
- geekworking, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I worked for an OEM system builder for many years. If you eliminate the whole MS evil empire angle, it is not in an OEM's best interest to sell empty boxes.
From my experience, selling "Bare Bones" systems without an OS turned into a support nightmare about 90% of the time. As others have said, the truly knowledgeable were building their own boxes. So we would end up with the person that could not do the easy part (plugging in the parts), but is an "expert" in installing and configuring hardware. These people knew just enough to be dangerous. The kind of person that could never be wrong, so if anything didn't go right it must be your hardware. In the end we would end up having to get the computer back and install everything manually just to prove to them that they were doing something wrong and it wasn't our hardware's problem. It was worth it to blow off this - mesoed, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6MS won't even allow us to purchase a computer with a THEIR volume license copy of Windoze. We HAVE to get OEM with a new computer (purchasing business class from Dell). Period. Sucks because we'd like to be able to xfer OS licenses to new machines from retired machines. Sure would save a lot of money and keep it away from MS.
Plus, we could get software assurance that would get us a "free" upgrade to Vista if we wanted.
One of the biggest scams MS has out there. -
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