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105 Comments
- dgritsko, on 10/12/2007, -4/+74They want $940? They must be on Krak!
- seks03, on 10/12/2007, -14/+44Idiots, Its there fault, they should have hotlink protection if they don't want people linking directly to their map.... linking is not a crime. I get customers all day mad that they have to pay for the additional bandwidth because someone hotlinked their files... I agree that this sucks but ultimately its the users responsibility to protect themselves.
- pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -2/+28JaXal, There is nothing on their page that says you can't link. You have to search for it in the copyright section and this is NOT HOTLINKING! This is a sugar trap, or to use another analogy, entrapment.
Do you check the copyright section of every site you link to in-case they have a "no deep linking" policy. I think not! Nobody does really! - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -3/+29@ Psyon.. Why do I feel like you've commented without reading the article? As it states at the very top of the article: THIS IS NOT HOTLINKING. He was linking to a proper page on the site!
- Sunzi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+26http://www.krak.dk/Kort/KortResultat.aspx?SearchType=manual&Address=%7c%7c%7c%7c1200%7cK%c3%b8benhavn+K%7cK%c3%b8benhavn+K%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c%7c725786.92%7c6176795.91%7c725786.92%7c6176795.91%7c0
does this mean that krak now can send a "faktura" to digg? - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+24They're not actually linking to the map but to the page that hosts the map complete with advertising etc... Which makes it even worse!
- S1L3NTC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21Please clear all your bookmarks from your browser, take your homepage off the internets (it's clogging the tubes), trade your computer in for a typewriter, and leave the online world to those who can understand how it works, O.K. ?
- JCSaint, on 10/12/2007, -1/+20The internet needs a superhero. A low-tech superhero. Some guy to walk around with a baseball bat and hit retarded people like krak.dk.
- jjesusfreak01, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Hmm, nobody has commented on the fact that although their copyright policy prohibits "deep-linking" they include on their map pages a method to email yourself the deep link for the page. In otherwords, they encourage the deep-linking. Even if it meant they only wanted it to be for personal use, it destroys their argument that they do not want anyone connecting through anything but the front page. I think they shot themselves in the foot with that one.
- Ulvund, on 10/12/2007, -0/+13This is the problem of an good old time company taking the good old rules ("I'm the decider") to the internets and ***** all over the reality of the internetty.
Krak should hire someone to help them understand networks. - stefanjuhl, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13There's been previous cases about deep linking in Denmark and because of defendants lawyers being somewhat incompetent (and the judges being old people who doesn't understand *****..) the rulings ended up being in favor of the "victim" who was deep linked.
So the legal grounds have already been laid out. Another thing to note is that it's always david vs. goliat like cases. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12This is just another pathetic attempt to push the little guy around. The Internet is about sharing information and I know of millions of publishers who would love to have someone link to their sites. Aside from the fact that someone might find it useful, it's 100 times better than scraping content, images and media for illegal reproduction. As Paul points out, they linked to the site -- not used the media without permission.
- pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@ Jaxal.. That's not the point. This is the internet, if a page on your site is easily available then chances are someone will link to it. If you don't want somebody to link to it you block it via .htaccess or some other method. Also, if you don't want someone to link to the page and you don't want to blog it, then you say it ON THE PAGE. They already have a copyright norice up about copying the maps, but NO mention of you not being allowed to link to them. Nor do they draw attention to it else where.
To follow your point, ANYBODY could set up a website, hide the no deep linking policy away where users don't normally go, and demand money from anybody that linked to them. Linking is after all, the natural action on the internet. Heck, it wouldn't even have to be deep linking. You could do the same for them linking to your homepage. - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+11@jjesusfreak01. Exactly! Also, they have a "print it" link even though the copyright on the map image says that its not allowed to copy it!
- greymaxcat, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14Ok... so If I go out to Blogger... set up a few anonymous blogs and link to their site left and right then I'll feel good about my self for "stickin'it to the man"... I not going to do that because I'm lazy... I'm going to go eat a sandwich... But I thought about it... and its the thought that counts...
(My God my posts are getting pointless...) - somesthetic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11They want Donkey Kong Koins?
- AndyBeard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Linking to them gives them link equity, helping them. Probably the worst thing you could do
I pointed out in the comments on my blog after I had made a spelling mistake, if they were called Kruk it might be more appropriate kruk ~ crook - scabbers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Next up: the goatse guy to demand royalties from everyone who ever hotlinked to his bumhole.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Please use any of the following email addresses to voice concerns or inquiries:
anntryktepub@krak.dk
salg@krak.dk
6696@krak.dk
salg@krak.dk
The friendly folks at the Krak house are eager to hear from you. - Beaver6813, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8... and now they want $995 for a map showing where someone lives... i mean someone has linked to their own page, its hardly stealing their map. They aren't loosing ANYTHING from doing that, they get all the advertisements and the rest of their site on there.
- rajulkabir, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10New business model: If I really want to get a lot of links fast, all I have to do is pretend to sue someone for linking to my site, then every blogtivist in the country will link to me.
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9"""Him not reading the privacy page is what will win the case for kruk.dk. """
Will it hell. You know, IANAL but I know that in some countries writing "By ignoring this box whilst standing in my garden, you agree to do the following:" in a big metal box and burying it in your garden does not constitute a legally binding contract - it's perfectly possible to use and navigate the site, or link to it, without reading any of their bumph or *knowing it exists*, let alone agreeing to it - and that's ignoring the facts, which are that in linking to another site's pages as they originally were (not hotlinking), your site does not suddenly have to meet their licensing requirements - it's a fricking *link to their site*.
Krak.dk in question have published their stuff online, and made no attempt to protect it from people linking to it. The link in question is not any kind of hotlink.
Publishing a hypertext (ie: web) document online then getting annoyed when people link to it from other hypertext documents, is akin to publishing a book and being annoyed if people read it. If they simply linked to the media, without showing your page, then you can understandably get annoyed because you're paying to embed that media in their document, but in this case it's a link to a page.
Properly linking to another site is not a guaranteed revenue stream. If it were, everyone would owe google a LOT of money, and google would owe us all even more. Hotlinking is one thing, but if you don't want people to link to your actual pages, you have chosen the wrong path in publishing a website, and should take it down.
You can't impose royalties on links - that's why you need to take responsibility and protect/remove stuff you don't want anyone linking to. - colinm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) says:
"any attempt to forbid the practice of deep linking is based on a misunderstanding of the technology, and threatens to undermine the functioning of the Web as a whole."
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/deeplinking.html - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Linking to them is exactly what we don't want folks to do. But we do need to bring this to peoples attention because if they get away with it other companies will start doing the same thing!
- AndyBeard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Good use of nofollow Paul
IANAL
It seems this site is set up as a trap, but the legal grounds on this might be interesting. If it was usage of the image itself, they have differing powers, depending on whether the copyright for an individual picture was registered or not.
This seems like a "sugar trap" to me - S1L3NTC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5What would you expect from a site named Krak? Obviously they were inspired by what they were smoking when they named their company, and then, in turn, sent out this letter.
Two words:
Google Maps
'Nuff said... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7***** idiots just needs all the negative attention they can for this!
The only reason they get away with stuff like this usually is just because they use scare tactics, suprise and fear of what might happen if you do not comply with their ridiculous demands.
Best of luck to Per! DONT PAY! - moofer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Dead (ass)Krak:
If you don't want to serve something on the internet, don't publish it. As soon as you put something online, and it gets dugg or slashdotted, you have to be willing to deal with it. A good server admin will have monitoring in place to alert them to such problems, and remove images that may jack up their bandwidth. If you can't play the game, you shouldn't dress out - stay home and watch it on TV. - bshep, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Or if using FireFox right-click reload every->5seconds
- pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5byxba.. He's not stealing anything... he's linking to PAGE, with advertising on it, a page that generates revenue because it uses his name and address! Also, if you're not allowing linking to you pages shouldn't you say it on the page instead of hiding away in the copyright section of the hellp section!
I they said "You're not allowed link to this page" in the footer of the page or something, then it would be a different matter. - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3He has.. but they're demanding money for use having the link up until the date they sent the letter, which was the 19th of January. Oh, and it's Danish btw ;)
- SimonDonkers, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why are you all assuming that laws are written by people that understand the internet and that laws take into account if something is logical?
IANAL and I don't know the copyright law in Denmark but I know there are an awful lot of places where the law doesn't take into account that the web is something global.
When you enter a shop in the Netherlands you agree to follow the rules of that shop which in most cases can be requested by sending a written request to the shop for these rules. Nobody ever reads these rules yet they still exist and need to be followed. Just like the lengthy EULA's need to be followed.
Why assume that because something doesn't make sense to forbid that it therefore is allowed?
I never even heard of jaywalking but a professor got arrested for doing so:
http://improbable.com/2007/01/09/historian-jaywalks-police-take-him-down/
Just because a law is stupid, doesn't exist in your country or other people are doing the same thing as well doesn't make it legal. - bshep, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3let just contribute to the popularity of their website and reload it several times today
:P - sfacets, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Here's a DIRECT LINK so people can contact them http://www.krak.dk/Information/Kontakt.aspx
- DoubtfulSalmon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Surely, *somewhere* on the planet, there's a group of roads arranged in a way that looks like a closed fist with the index finger extended? I want everyone to link to a map of *that* location!
- secion8, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@Blandyman
But did the parent clearly state the curfew time? Or just figure he knows when to come in? It says no place prominently on the page that hot linking is not allowed! YES, they say it in there TOS but it is not prominent on the page. With services like google, yahoo and other map services all allowing this kind of behavior it is normal in Internet society to link to map pages.
It says on the page that the map can not be copied BUT he did not copy the map! He linked to the page that has the ORIGINAL map on it. Now if the company put in a link to the Policy page Prominently in the same spot with the copyright notice that clearly states that linking is not allowed then the company will have some ground to stand on. If they do not want people linking to there service why do they have controls on the page to send links AND PRINT ( As far as I know printing a page is a COPY ) So they have screwed themselves that they do not want the map copied BUT they put a button on the page to make a print COPY of the map and to send links.
With a good lawyer this guy will get the suit dropped and laughed out of court. - tcdk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2These people are idiots.
I did a homepage for a Danish company about 10 years ago, back when the web thing was invented. And these people tried exactly the same scam. We had linked from our address to the page on their site that showed the street of the company. Got a bill. Told them to fck off, called our friends in the press and hoped krak would take us up on it. We had a good lawyer and needed the PR and a good laugh. To bad they didn't.
Krak defines "deep-linking" as linking to anything but their front-page. Hey, they are welcome, there are lots of Danish map site. Only make some kind of technical solution that would make deep-linking impossible. It's quite easy, just include a hash in the URL that must be up-to-date or something. Only that wouldn't make it possible to bill people after they have linked to them. - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@byxba.. They don't draw any attention to the fact that they have a terms of service page. That should at least be linked to from the front page (it's not) if you wish the users to know of any restrictions to use. Also they don't actually have a page called Terms of Service or "vilkår for brug" anywhere in there menus.
They have the "vilkår for brug" briefly mentioned in the copyright page of their help menu. If you have Terms of Service, they should be clearly labeled and mark so that people cab be aware of them and comply with them. - aaarrrgh, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2except google maps doesn't do phone numbers, routes (even down to which busses to pick), companies or businesses, or anything else here in Denmark...
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3It's not private property, it's a PUBLICATION on the world wide web.
The express intent of the protocol, the servers that dish it out and the documents is that people link between the documents on it.
The many mechanisms for serving documents which not everyone is allowed to use or link to are well-known, readily available and often extremely simple.
You can't wave your genitals around in public, in a morris dancing costume and then scream "Oh God! That guy looked at my genitals!! Oh my God!!! Look, and another one! I feel violated!!! Peeping toms! Stop looking at me!! Money please." - similarly, you can't make your stuff readily available as a publication online, then complain if people link to the parent page with full attribution. - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4According to them.. then yep I would guess so
- neo164, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Linking is not a crime. Stupid krak
- pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2It's not hotlinking, it's deep linking! You obviously didn't read the article, or the comments above!
- BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hey guys, if a legal precedent is set for this, people can sue google, yahoo and all the major search engines for every single result they give.
Then we can move on to sue the very *concept* of the world wide web in their country.
w00t! We're all going to be rich!!
Oh no, wait, I forgot you don't just automatically get paid for being a complete retard - which is a shame from krak.dk's perspective. Let us know how that works out for you, guys. - jchillerup, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2whoops, yes I do: http://www.findvej.dk/Virumgårdsvej21,2830
- pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Per actually has a real daytime job! The reason you are registered as a company if you breed dogs is if you intend to sell the puppies. He has 2 champion dogs, so legally has to register to sell the puppies when they breed. It's still a hobby and not a commercial venture. If he had 20 dogs and was actually actively breeding them specifically for money that would be another matter.
Also, following your logic any or all links are illegal, even to the frontpage, because according to the WC3 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/deeplinking.html
all links are deep-links.
"The formal definition of the URI, on which all of the software that successfully drives the Web is built, is in [RFC2396]. This formal definition has no notion of a "home" or "portal" page, nor does any of the vast amount of software deployed to process URIs. Thus, from the point of view of the underlying technology, all links are deep links." - nanboya, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Interesting, I got a different location.
http://www.krak.dk/Firma/Kort.aspx?Query=Virumg%C3%A5rdsvej%2021&Area=2830%20Virum&Page=0&Knr=6444366&BackLink=UXVlcnk9VmlydW1nJXUwMGU1cmRzdmVqKzIxJkFyZWE9MjgzMCtWaXJ1bQ==&MapState=618820600|618740600|71767500|71867500|641300000|603300000|42750000|90250000|50000|50000|640|512|71817500|618780600|&SearchResult=cG9pbnR8NzE4MTc1MDB8NjE4NzgwNjAw&MapSize=2 - pauloflaherty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@cyberduke.. I may be stubborn.. but you do seem eager to comment without (apparently) actually reading the post I linked to...
- ramsinks.com, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I went to Krak, tapped down my F5 button and went out for a movie.
- spiri, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1So actually sites like Digg are doing nothing but violating copyright laws? :|
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