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ISPs Will All Spy on Their Customers, Professor Warns

blog.wired.com — If there's a candidate for the worst future violator of your privacy, look no further than the company you pay for broadband. So says University of Colorado law professor and former federal prosecutor Paul Ohm, who argues in a new article that ISPs have the means, motive and opportunity to kill your online privacy.

Who dugg this? Made popular Sep 5, 2008

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  • nordberg, on 09/05/2008, -2/+40If we consider ISPs as common carriers, then they should not be allowed to do any of this invasive *****.

    We wouldn't stand for the phone company listening in on conversations, so why the "internet company" "listening" to traffic.
  • Khast, on 09/05/2008, -1/+28Telecoms are allowed to eavesdrop on our conversations...in the name of security. I fear that all it will take is another 9/11 to happen, and we'll lose the remaining places we can hide from our very own government.

    It isn't about Terrorism, it is about control, profit, and most of all greed.
  • Havs, on 09/05/2008, -2/+17We need to COMPLETELY revise the IP protocol and/or utilize a new protocol that encrypts all traffic by default. The archaic method of sending all data in the clear is outdated and needs to go.
  • Subriot, on 09/05/2008, -2/+16"The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either."
    ~Benjamin Franklin
  • samyoungguitar, on 09/05/2008, -7/+19Our rights have been trampled in so many ways in the last 8 years. This may be the darkest time in American history.
  • vxp19, on 09/05/2008, -2/+14Encryption is a wonderful thing.
  • chilldeity, on 09/05/2008, -1/+11Eh... the Civil War?
  • abajaj2280, on 09/05/2008, -5/+12Um, are you joking?
    Did you forget about the stock market crash? That was a lot worse than this.
  • alapoet, on 09/05/2008, -3/+10All the phone companies except Qwest and CREDO Mobile *do* in fact listen in on conversations, on orders from the Bush administration.


  • Smeed, on 09/05/2008, -0/+6Or mail carries snooping in our mail.
  • NotYourProdigy, on 09/05/2008, -2/+8***** that monopoly Comcast!
  • kanimara, on 09/05/2008, -0/+5i was warned about this years ago, by a homeless guy.

    but thanks anyway random professor.
  • tunapez, on 09/05/2008, -1/+6AtheismFTW, are you being facetious? I sure hope so, if not you need to get out of that cave more often:
    http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70619-0.htm ...
    This is pre-FISA, they've all been given immunity ex-post facto, and encouraged/required to continue. Good stuff being free.

    What I find ironic is the "Corp's" are free to exploit our privacy for profit(forget the cold cuts, we're having cold calls and spam for dinner tonight), inundate us with guerrilla marketing everywhere we look(look around, what's your t-shirt say today?), perpetually deny any activity and information through patent prostitution(PgUp/PgDown?), indefinitely deny the public domain through copyright extensions(Walt is rolling over in his CG tube). I wish that tree had gotten Sonny a couple years earlier. But then again, some other shill lawmaker would have sold our freedoms down the river eventually, anyway. Why doesn't Cox and Comcast[et al] pay for our downloads? We're triple taxed already.

    Vote out those who value power and money more than duty and responsibility. VOTE OUT THE INCUMBENTS!!!!
  • blankoboy, on 09/05/2008, -0/+4This will get a lot darker before (if ever) things get any better. That is, unless the people stand up now and do something. The sad thing is humans, by nature, will not do anything until the very last moment.
  • DigitAl56K, on 09/05/2008, -0/+4It's such a shame that the vast majority of what we do online is not encrypted and nobody seems interested in changing the status quo.

    For example: Right now you're browsing Digg over http. Your ISP sees every request you make to Digg, so they see everything you're interested in. They see every comment you submit. Sure, comments are public, but because they see the http post they can easily tie it back to you. Later you may check your POP mail. Chances are it's coming over as plaintext, and your username and password are going out as plaintext also. FTPing stuff to a web host? Are they using SSL by default? Browsing Amazon? Are your search queries and results going over https? Probably not.
  • blacklilyninja, on 09/05/2008, -0/+3so the question is... how do we start to network and create a new backbone without them?
  • megaton, on 09/05/2008, -1/+4Hiro?

    "Watch users download naked cheerleaders, save the world."
  • tunapez, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2How....er, uh...convenient? Can't help but notice Rummy and Dicky have been sowing the seeds of fear for 35+ years now(silent commie subs were a fictitious, unsubstantiated threat long before Clancy wrote the book). How much are they worth today? I remember hearing Donny woahing about all the $100's of millions he had to pay taxes on back in 2000 or 2001. How terrorific for him.
  • adrenalmedulla9, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2Uhm. You know how you can't enjoy looking at porn if you feel like you're being watched? ...yeeaaaaahh. Well, this sucks.
  • DKgatsby, on 09/05/2008, -1/+3I bet the government is already using ISP's to catalog our frequently viewed websites...
  • twiztidsinz, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2AH! Waffu!
    Yoohoo!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cok46rry74o
  • Walled, on 09/05/2008, -4/+6***** THE RIAA!!!
  • unrealmp3, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2Time to increase the use of HTTPS.
  • illDecree, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2Fear is the best thing imaginable to use to keep people under your thumb.
  • 2Bnor2B, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2The problem is, even if you try to use an encrypted proxy to protect your privacy, most site's will fail to function properly. It eventually negates the purpose of the proxy if you have to add and manage the exceptions to all your sites.
  • blankoboy, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2And the fear of terrorism facilitates all this.
  • TINZUSA, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2If they spy on me, I will no longer use the Internet. I'll just go away and read a book. I don't want my children to inhabit a digitally draconian future where they are observed like lab rats for measuring the performance of marketing campaigns. Indeed, how will we ever be able to trust what we read online if we know that the data can be manipulated by the ISP.
  • Resiroth, on 09/05/2008, -0/+2I doubt that this will happen. There will always ways to be anonymous ( tor anyone? ) or at least anonymous enough for the average mildly paranoid user. Also I bet this will inspire startup ISPs that do not monitor traffic for a mild price hike. If there is a demand ( and there will be ) the market will fulfill it.
  • Yond, on 09/05/2008, -1/+2Whatever various nations and isp companies do to spy on, filter, or throttle content will only hurt them and the people they do such things to in the long run. The internet is truly a worldwide flexible thing that will likely teach many hard lessons to any that would use it for wrongful snooping.
  • mathcreative, on 09/05/2008, -0/+1agree!
  • peheimbach, on 09/06/2008, -0/+1A few comments, as an ISP founder and MIS:
    1. Even with fewer than 100K users, none of the folks I work with (our staff count isn't big) have the time to look at individual users. If we were to start "spying" on our users, it would be MUCH MORE for general data -- what percent of our users go here, what percent goes there -- and MUCH, MUCH LESS to see who's looking at porno. (Although violations of US and INTERNATIONAL LAW will get you in some HOT WATER, IF (see point 2)
    2. If we do "spy", our user contract CLEARLY states that it's going to need to be done under a subpoena/warrant/whatever. Cops are going to have to ASK for individual user information.
    3. If you're concerned:
    a. don't use your ISP's DNS numbers. Use something like OpenDNS. Not a big help, but a start.
    b. like other commenters have said -- use encryption.
    4. If you're really concerned, demand that your ISP create a comprehensive PRIVACY STATEMENT -- like those really annoying booklets you get from your insurer(s), your credit card issuers, and all manner of other companies these days. Then again -- are you really going to READ THAT? But be honest -- do you read the OTHER privacy statements you get -- from companies with serious access to just as many of your private bits?
    If the ISP won't cough up a privacy statement -- at least one which tells you how your data are being used, if not one that says "no use at all" -- then remind them (by talking or even walking) that there are others out there that might respect your privacy.
  • AtheismFTW, on 09/05/2008, -0/+1These are the New Dark Ages, I hope you're living right.
  • keeperofkeys, on 09/05/2008, -0/+1That sounds like the kind of argument that used to be made against building a browser to web standards. It used to be the case that the Mozilla browser and early Firefox would break on many sites; not now. If everyone starts encrypting and proxying, sites will have to accommodate to the new situation or die.
  • illDecree, on 09/05/2008, -0/+1$$$ MONEY $$$
    every single ***** thing boils down to money.
    our privacy, rights, ect are all being raped becuase someone, somewhere is making a buck.
  • theRealNyee, on 09/05/2008, -0/+0Something that I've never understood is that internet today is almost a utilities company. Yet, its the only one that ever really asks if your planning on doing something illegal. Hell, my house still has wiring that was made illegal in WWII yet its more important for people to worry about how people do illegal things on the internet.
  • illDecree, on 09/05/2008, -0/+0in the end, this cycle is never going to change... someone is always playing "hide", while the other is playing 'seek'. someone is always going to find a way around any security measure put in place, while another one is working on the next big fix. remember the kid who broke thru DVD encryption? wasn't he like 15? so, the industry scrambled, and came up w/something new that worked.... for a minute.
    same thing with ISP's spying. If you dont want them to see what you are doing, you can do that. its wrong, it needs to be stopped, but it's not going to happen.
    ADAPT.
    sux, huh?
  • deft0n3s, on 09/05/2008, -0/+0If you're using an encrypted proxy, who says the proxy is not logging everything you are doing. I know I used to set up proxies to collect personal data from people stupid enough to use any old proxy; what is stopping G-man from setting up an encrypted proxy to collect data? You are guaranteed no privacy by using a proxy that you know nothing about, and most of the time you do not know what they are doing with your traffic.
  • monsterette, on 09/05/2008, -1/+1..yep!
  • vxp19, on 09/05/2008, -1/+1Then I guess you can sign me into the terrorist pedo list.

    We should have a better, shorter name for our list.

    May I suggest " The Pedoterr" ?
    Or, perhaps, "The Terrpedo" ?
  • Elranzer, on 09/05/2008, -1/+1"Only terrorists and child pornographers use encryption."
  • yerlamow, on 09/05/2008, -2/+2Pretty scary. What's their reason to do that?
  • deft0n3s, on 09/05/2008, -0/+0I think there is an obligatory "***** THE RIAA!!!" comment in every article on Digg.
  • groo68, on 09/05/2008, -1/+1killing off American tribes?
    influenza?
    vietnam?
    wwii?
  • AtheismFTW, on 09/05/2008, -5/+4citation needed.
  • illDecree, on 09/05/2008, -1/+0too bad to implement that would be so difficult... not to mention, by the time that was fully implemented, it would be common knowledge how to break that

    ....would be nice tho
  • illDecree, on 09/05/2008, -1/+0hell... i use encryption... why? becuase everyone and their mother is trying to get into my business... so, what do i do in my free time? find companies like Comcast, and get into their business!!!

  • lulzitsadigg, on 09/05/2008, -6/+3PROFESSOR ZOIDBERG?
  • inactive, on 09/05/2008, -6/+2They already do. The internet is no longer a completely free playground for your rude comments, perversions and ect. Which is to bad as it was a great outlet for stress.

    Yeah, of course it's a great tool for educating yourself, networking, gaming and ect but the days of hopping on the net and venting steam about, for instance, the government with a quick comment like, "Boy I wish someone would take out that person in a high government position" with out the secret service coming to your house.

    That's just an example. Sigh.
  • locojones, on 09/05/2008, -6/+2ISPs are private businesses and therefore the Constitution doesn't apply to them. So you have no 4th Amendment rights vis-a-vis your ISP; they can spy on you at will. If you don't like it, write your representatives, encrypt your transmissions, or find a new ISP.

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