What is Digg?Sponsored by Microsoft
Microsoft responds to the headlines. view!
microsoft.com/everybodysbusiness - Read our developers’ points of view on the headlines making news.
51 Comments
- verifex, on 10/12/2007, -4/+29I hate DRM.
I wish we could take all those content distribution executives who came up with it and beat them senseless. Nobody outside of content distribution "middle men" are concerned with DRM, the public doesn't want it, even most artists don't want it. - DavisFreeberg, on 10/12/2007, -4/+25If anyone shouldn't care about time shifting you would think it was HBO. Isn't the point to pay a premium so you don't have to watch commercials. This only makes me not want to subscribe to HBO.
- timla, on 10/12/2007, -4/+21Looks a lot more like issues with the JVC then with the TIVO Series3
- XStatic, on 10/12/2007, -2/+18Perhaps taking DRM out of the mix would be the real solution!
Even series 2 receivers get hit with macrovision copy protection on occasion, sometimes from broadcasts "due to a bug", but you can easily reproduce by trying to time shift a DVD rental so you can return the disk on time and watch the movie later. TiVo won't let you do it... - theblueprint, on 10/12/2007, -3/+19FTA: "Indeed, when we took the JVC receiver out of the mix, things seemed fine"
So it's a JVC issue, not a TiVo or HBO issue.
(whoops, sorry timla...missed your comment) - gabebear, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16I think HDCP strippers are going to become very common because of situations like these.
- swizzley, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Once again a story that was submitted, and is being Dugg without being read. The problem is not with HBO or TiVO, but with a JVC receiver CNET Labs was using for the test.
"Bottom line: For whatever reason, the JVC receivers and the TiVo Series3 don't seem to be a perfect match."
While I'm sure there will be many channels that add copy protection to their shows to stop them from being recorded on other media via the TiVO, thats not happening yet. - deanlowe, on 10/12/2007, -6/+15***** cable TV. The Internet is way more entertaining.
- drag, on 10/12/2007, -5/+13Holy *****! Guess what I just did!
I blocked HBO from showing up on my cable bill with something called "A phone call to my cable company".
That's my own personal form of digital rights management.
Screw them. The Sopranos was the only thing going for HBO and they screwed that over when they stopped tying to make it funny. Netflix is better anyways.
Here that whoosing noise HBO?
That's the noise of the future rushing past you leaving your corporation in the dust with the other dinosaurs.
Hells bells. Now that I figured out how to download files from Adultswim.com I have serious doubts on the whole point of having cable in the first place. - drag, on 10/12/2007, -3/+9hehe. I just had a mom and daughter driving past a old broken down motel 5 years from now and the daughter asking; "Mommy, What is 'Free HBO'?"
And the mom saying; "It's a bit like watching movies on the internet only it was impossible to find something you actually wanted to watch." - Whitey04, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8This is true. The headline is a bit overstated.
However, it does show a major issue with DRM. Its horrible (and intentional) incompatability. This is even between HDMI devices wich theoretically shouldn't have a problem. - chuckythe2651, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I think this thread is missing the big point. DRM is killing the media experience and limiting choices. Today it's HBO not allowing coping..next it will be NBC not allowing commercial fast forwards. Taken to it's logical conclusion the content deliverers could disable time shifting all together. Could you imagine. Who wants to go back in time 10 years, not me!
On a personal note I'm an early adopter buying a 7k HD TV 7 years ago and the new 1k (after the lifetime sub.) Series 3. And now it seems possible that I could be screwed because my TV didn't come with an HDMI port. How is that fair? I helped pay for the R&D of these new technologies and then the content providers are going to screw me. WTF? - Whitey04, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8NOT @verifex
Then don't buy it.
Talk is cheap. If you don't like DRM don't buy the stuff with it. If you hate HDMI, don't buy recievers/TV's with it.
Put your luxury where your mouth is. - Kniggit, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6You aren't allowed to "strip" HDCP from signals nor send unencrypted content out. It's in the DCP LLC agreement that every manufacturer of HDMI devices signs. You can become immediately liable for millions of dollars plus whatever else the content providers deem you facilitated for infringement according to DCP's contract.
More specifically with respect to the story, this isn't Macrovision on the analog signal but more likely CGMS-A+RC which is data embedded in the vertical blanking interval of the signal. That standard defines things like "Copy Once" and "Copy Any" in addition to "Copy Never". All analog Macrovision does is foul up various aspects of analog signals such as sync so VCRs can't record them. In fact, most DVRs have respect for Macrovision and are certified as such even though they could easily record Macrovision-enabled content. The fact that JVC doesn't properly extract CGMS-A+RC isn't surprising - anything having to do with the vertical blanking interval is difficult to make robust from a design perspective. - nightstrm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You can't record premium channels with MythTV. I switched back from MythTV to Tivo when they released the series 3 for that very reason. Absolutely no problems with being able to record any programs that I want.
- EGOvoruhk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6http://tinyurl.com/zss5g
It's a JVC... - ZennZero, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Greetings! I visit you from the distant future (approx. 1 hour).
In my time, a company called Spatz-tech makes DVI amps that function as HDCP removers. You may need a HDMI to DVI cable, but these should do the trick.
Search google for more details on their products. Note that if you were using HDMI for the audio signal, you may have to route the audio to your amp on a different cable. - olympuscoder, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9Call your cable provider. Cancel HBO. Tell them it was because they sent you DRMed movies that you could not TIVO.
VOTE WITH DOLLARS.
Or, stop watching TV and go live a life of your own. You'll be much happier. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Drag you are such a tool.
So is anyone else who posted here that they are cancelling their HBO. Get a life. - cgbale, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Theoretically, HDMI devices should all be compatible with one another. However, if you read through AVS Forum, you'll find that there are a huge number of similar HDMI compatibility issues. Even two devices from the same manufacturer will have issues. Compatibility seems to have improved over the past year, but this proves that there are still problems with HDMI (and the HDCP DRM it requires).
- Thujone, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4@Kniggit
Thank god for other countries that dont care about american law. I can promise you these devices will exist and be readily available on our beloved interweb. - rufo, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5The article explains it's a combined problem between JVC and the cable provider's overzealous DRM flagging. Marked as inaccurate.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4call me when vcr can do HD, ok?
- jazzyinco, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I'd probably drop HBO too, but Rome is showing up in January.
- Neploxo, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4I honestly don't understand why more people haven't cancelled HBO. What is there to watch on it anymore? They've cancelled ALL their best shows, and the movies are all so old I've already seen in theaters or PPV or already have on DVD. I cancelled HBO when they cancelled Carnivale, and haven't looked back.
- piper999, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2You forgot the $12.95 service fee that you have to pay to use the Tivo as well as the $800 to buy the stupid thing in the first place.
In other words, after the 100 month 'break even' timeframe for the hardware you would still be down $1295.00 on the deal (the Tivo would have cost $2095 dollars and the cable co DVR would have cost $800 - almost two thirds cheaper).
I have no idea why anyone would buy the Series 3 Tivo. - fani, on 10/12/2007, -1/+32 things suck -
1. you cannot copy over recordings from Tivo 3. You have to stream it realtime.
THIS SUCKS and Tivo has lost all its appeal. I can do that today with my $8/month comcast DVR box. I can use this box for 100months ( $800/$8 ) = approx. 8.5 years before
I break even with Tivo's price. !!! Tivo sucks here
2. Stupid DRM. ***** it. I'm gonna wait for the crack and copy movies. I cannot have my originals get scratched and buy 10 versions - one for Tv, one for Archos, one for PC, one for PSP. That sucks. I'm gonna buy one format and convert to all other format via hacks. ***** the DRM - dolbex, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2thats right... its the jvc receiver. Not over-flagging...
- vvaduva, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Did the submitter actually read the article? The problem is not with TiVo or HBO, rather with the JVC receiver not handling copyright flags properly. Marked as inaccurate...read articles before you submit them people!
- nightstrm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Agreed... I hate stories like this because you're giving Tivo (and in this case HBO) a bad name for something that isn't under their control.
- mohaine, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Of course with that setup you could not record HD HBO at all.
MythTV is great and all, but it can not record encrypted digital channels. This is a major plus for the Tivo. - TylerDurden0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yeah really. That should make them change some things.
- MechaFenris, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1This underscores yet another in the long list of reasons why HDTV, HD-DVD, Blu-Ray and the like will stay at the store for me.
The hassle is a waste of time. The DRM is a sick joke taken too far. And the content wasn't that good in the first place on regular 4:3 TVs.... so why is it suddenly going to be magically "awesome" in HD?
They can keep it. - sophiaperennis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Right, as the article mentions as the bottom line: "For whatever reason, the JVC receivers and the TiVo Series3 don't seem to be a perfect match."
Nevertheless, what the content providers don't understand, is that DRM restrictions are only going to annoy the people who are already willing to pay for the technology and the content. The DRM restriction is just the content owner's way of slowing down the inevitable: All digital content distribution. - nailer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I've read from repuable sources that HDMI had DRM inbuilt into it. They're not 'compatibility issues', they're specifically designed that way.
Could someone who knows about this stuff please let the rest of us know what the best way to move 1920 x 1080 video without DRM is? - gabebear, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2@Kniggit
CGMS-A is for component connections and CGMS-D is for digital, and it is possible that it is the problem since the Tivo is one of the few devices that does implement CGMS.
CGMS is just a flag so it would be simplistic to just reset this flag while stripping the HDCP from the recording. I don't think it would be illegal to sell these devices as long as there was a significant legal use, which this article demonstrates there is. - TheSolomon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1dodger2020- drag said "five years from now," which would imply it happening in the *future*. I believe drag meant to say "I just had [a vision of] a mom and daughter driving past..." No ass-blowing-smoke required. He's imagining the future. :-)
- nohonor, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0alt.binaries.tv
- Skywise, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I don't understand why having a JVC HDMI switch makes the Tivo think you're watching protected content...
"Our initial test was smooth: we got high-def HDMI output to the JVC receiver and the attached HDTV, and a simultaneous standard-def signal from the TiVo's S-Video and composite outputs..."
"He suggested that the problem was twofold: ... and/or the JVC receiver was not properly interpreting the copy-protection flag."
They're trying to record analog video from the Tivo, but the Tivo is saying the content is protected... but that's BEFORE it hits the JVC receiver? So the Tivo is saying the "Copy Never" flag is set not because it recorded the HD program from Comcast but because it asked the JVC receiver and the JVC receiver said "no copy"?
DRM makes my head hurt... - diggduggjoe, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Good for you drag, but be sure to email HBO. Better yet, snail mail them and tell them why you cancelled their service. That way your actions will be heard. Using our wallets as a weapon works only when the offending corporations know why we removed our money.
- XStatic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1If the dang copyright flags and rules to prevent recording such wasn't there it wouldn't be a problem for any receiver!
- Kniggit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@Zennzero & Thujone:
You're right that other countries' laws don't work the same way here. This, however, isn't going to completely stop the existence of decrypters. What will happen is that these companies will come and go, vaporize as fast as they appeared, and provide these devices for a short time. The HDCP key block assigned to those manufacturers will be removed from future devices once they're revoked even if the manufacturer skips town. This will have two consequences:
1. There will never be a reliable source of these devices in the market over any long period of time.
2. As the devices cease manufacture, they will become obsolete with new devices.
So, as long as you're content with that, you're ok. - AkiraXXX, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Amen, olympuscoder.
- Thujone, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2I just called to cancel my HBO. Guess they would rather me torrent their shows.
- SomeBlackGuy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0I watch "The Wire" and the Bill Maher show. When "The Wire" ends so will my HBO subscription.
- TylerDurden0, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1Cork it up, pal. Nobody likes a WHINER!! Tough break. That's the nature of how things go. You got blasted on the TV and you did not learn your lesson buying the TiVo S3. When are you going to stop being such a consumer?
Save your money. You're going to need it. Next time find out all the facts before you slam your obviously easily-earned cabbage on the counter demanding the latest in home theater technology. I am sure you have a nice setup, but don't bitch about it. - Whitey04, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1I agree. This is why I don't have DRM locked music, I don't have an HDTV, and I don't plan on a next-gen player (also b/c of the format war on that one).
- dodger2020, on 10/12/2007, -6/+4Good job Drag. Hopefully you really did that and aren't just blowing smoke out your ass. Then hopefully you'll see it was stupid to do so because if you'd actually read the article before posting you'd realize that the problem had NOTHING to do with HBO (they tried HD movies and other HD channels) and everything to do with the DRM overzealous JVC DVR's that they tried.
- drag, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"Good job Drag. Hopefully you really did that and aren't just blowing smoke out your ass. Then hopefully you'll see it was stupid to do so because if you'd actually read the article before posting you'd realize that the problem had NOTHING to do with HBO (they tried HD movies and other HD channels) and everything to do with the DRM overzealous JVC DVR's that they tried."
HBO still sucks and I am still getting rid of it anyways.
But it's nice to know that I should avoid buying the JVC DVRs like the plague. -
Show 51 - 53 of 53 discussions
© Digg Inc. 2009
— Content created and posted by Digg users is