What is Digg?44 Comments
- srobbin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+33Tweedy is a f'in genius. Nice to hear the voice of reason coming from people in the music biz.
- TeacherOfHeroes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+21If anyone in the music biz benefits from piracy, its the artists. The smart, savvy ones will catch onto this eventually, and the effect will grow as more and more new, young artists come along.
P2P is like a free distribution system for your music. The old model was loaded with up-front costs; making CDs and shipping them. Now you can just put some MP3s on your web site and watch other people on P2P distribute your music for you for free. - TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12And this is why Wilco continues to be one of the best bands out there...because they actually give a ***** about their fans.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Jeff Tweedy is one of those guys that makes me wish he were drunk and I was gay.
Wait. that sounds bad. - TeacherOfHeroes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Artists make their money selling things like tickets to their concerts, and maybe merchandise like hats and sweaters. The recording industry is the only real benefactor of the revenue from CD and online music sales.
Besides, I don't think that many real musicians could still make a good song if they had to work pepto-bismol into every second line. - TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9"I'm sure there's plenty more musicians that think like he does. But opinions like that don't make news, and they certainly don't make their producers any happier."
Unfortunately, not many with the respect that Jeff Tweedy has make statements like this. - robohoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"Treating your audience like thieves is absurd. Anyone who chooses to listen to our music becomes a collaborator. People who look at music as commerce don’t understand that. They are talking about pieces of plastic they want to sell, packages of intellectual property. I’m not interested in selling pieces of plastic."
A-f***ing-men.
Holy words there, nerds, holy words. Amen. - tastypastry, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I don't get why bands don't start to cut out the middle man. With the internet these days that's all you need. You can reach the majority of your fans and sell your album straight from you and make more profit not to mention the merchandise.
I guess most of these "mainstream" bands only care about the money because if they really cared about their fans and the love of making music that's exactly how they would keep it and not care about how much money there making.
BTW, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about Wilco. - gumby05, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6and one of the best live bands playing today.
- kaptnkrunch, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6For those unaware of who Jeff Tweedy is, download Yankee Hotel Foxtrot. It's cool with him. Promise.
- TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6"The problem is that if artists can't make money by selling music, they'll start doing what the TV industry is doing: in-show ads and product placement."
No it's not. What you will see is more emphasis placed on touring, where the artists has a chance to really make the money.
You're already starting to see labels make record deals giving them a piece of the band's touring pie. This was NEVER done in the past, but because the industry is changing, different revenue models are being developed. If done correctly, this has the potential to be good for both artist AND label, by forcing labels to develop artists into great live acts and not just "MTV stars," since they benefit from those well-rounded artist on a much greater and longer scale. - Jacobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6Even though I do it, I don't think people are "entitled" to pirate music, but I've also held this same view for a while. It seems like any artist worth their salt would be more interested in their message getting out there, or like bloggers want as many eye-balls on their blogs, musicians want as many ears as possible to hear their sound.
With the state of the music industry, it is hard to discover new sounds through traditional mean (radio, mtv), but through random downloading, music blogs, and torrents I've found so many great artist that I'm willing to support. I think what scares most record companies about downloading music is that the cream rises to the top, and not whatever act is being forced down our throats. - TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Very true. Seen them a few times and just gets better and better.
- Sagard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4Brilliant.
- dragazis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3he is one of the few true artist/musicians that embraces new technology as a form of expanding creativity and innovation when it comes to music.
- cleverboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3@WaterDragon
You realize nothing you're saying has anything to do with the conversation right? Professional musicians are different from hobbyists (some guy just toying around with a few chords on a guitar once every few months after work). I'm insulted everytime some idiot claims a musician should get a "real job" or thinks that they should be a "rock star". To them, I say "GROW UP!" In dealing with the *real world*, musicians, who do music AS A PROFESSION, need to make money.
Just like illustrators or actors. Can you sell "acting" as a loaf of bread? People struggle and they "make it". I remember going to school for illustration and having my mother think I'd be selling Elvis paintings on black-velvet on the street corner. She'd never been to a gallery, or heard of editorial illustration. Like a musician, your art is your livelihood, and it doesn't have to be blue collar to be respected as "real work" given all the practice, effort, and skill involved.
If I sell prints of my artwork, and some yahoo claims I'm trying to live some "movie-star" life and that I should get a "real job", I can't help but feel sorry for them. Your judgement of the proficiency of ANYONE's work (WaterDragon) is irrelevant to whether they are "good" or "bad" or "worth it". Don't attempt to make my trade mediocre because you can't do it. If you like it, pay what I ask and move on. If you don't, then you're not my concern. Simple enough equation.
@WaterDragon
You realize nothing you're saying has anything to do with the conversation right? Professional musicians are different from hobbyists. I'm insulted everytime some idiot claims a musician should get a "real job" or thinks that they should be a "rock star". To them, I say "GROW UP!" In dealing with the real world, musicians, who do music AS A PROFESSION, need to make money. Just like illustrators or actors. Can you sell "acting" as a loaf of bread? People struggle and they "make it". I remember going to school for illustration and having my mother think I'd be selling Elvis paintings on black-velvet on the street corner. She'd never been to a gallery, or heard of editorial illustration. Like a musician, your art is your livelihood, and it doesn't have to be blue collar to be respected as "real work" given all the practice, effort, and skill involved. If I sell prints of my artwork, and some yahoo claims I'm trying to live some "movie-star" life and that I should get a "real job", I can't help but feel sorry for them. Don't attempt to make my trade mediocre because you can't do it. If you like it, pay what I ask and move on. If you don't, then you're not my concern. Simple enough equation. - omgitscolin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Hear hear. Wilco is awesome.
- Niffer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Tweedy has a very good reason to say what he has said. In 2001, Wilco was dropped from their label because their latest demo cd, Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was too different from their previous records and the label didn't think it would sell. After they put the demo online, it garnered so much buzz that they got to pick and choose a new record label (both their original and new label were subsidiaries of Time Warner ironically) . Yankee Hotel Foxtrot was on every "best albums" list of 2002.
- TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.mediafire.com/?dli7f4vl19b
A WONDERFUL Jeff Tweedy show from 2002...check it out if you like him, or even if you don't know him and want to become educated. (Hey, he said himself that trading live shows is fine!) - TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG9LZvKDEZ0
From his new DVD.
God his voice is amazing. - robohoe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Yeah I agree. The record companies simply lose the money because people download and hear new music through the alternative means. And that's why people keep getting sued. And I agree about saying that musicians are like bloggers - to get as many people hear your stuff as possible, using the cheapest and most effective way.
Too bad the record companies don't understand that because they simply are after the money. - uxb123, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2Let me preface this by saying I do not support the RIAA, or the status quo in the industry. I do not blame "piracy" for the woes of the industry.
There are a few myths bandied about that I would like to dispel:
1."Artists make their money selling things like tickets to their concerts, and maybe merchandise like hats and sweaters. The recording industry is the only real benefactor of the revenue from CD and online music sales."
Artists may make most of the bigger money in publishing (if they manage to grab that gold ring). Tours can be very expensive and depending on the scale, can cost the artist money. Don't forget that a great many of the venues are owned by Clear Channel - I'll let you ruminate on what that means for the artist. There is no one formula for success at the moment.
2."I don't get why bands don't start to cut out the middle man. With the internet these days that's all you need. You can reach the majority of your fans and sell your album straight from you and make more profit not to mention the merchandise. "
There are many reasons artists don't cut out the "middle man". In many cases, and as a matter of scale, we need the middle men, but only about 1-4 of them in most cases (tour manager, marketing, distribution, etc). If we have to wear all the hats, there is little time left in the day to create and hone the music.
There is no clear cut path to connect the artists to their audience. I welcome the ideas presented, and look forward to more alternative promoters and venues. It's great to hear so many involved with the debate, and passionately supporting the artists they enjoy.
Sincerely,
H - uxb123, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1In a tangential way you are describing one of the, for lack of a better term, "benefits?" of the old methods of the record industry. Audio production, duplication, and distribution was expensive enough that the industry acted as a buffer and filter, by not investing in acts which were deemed of lesser quality. Radio DJ's (when they actually chose the music) were another arm of this, by playing what they liked, acted as another distillation, until all that was left was music which passed the muster of both the label and the radio DJ. This of course became moot when the myriad of labels became only 5 (finished by the mergers in the 90's), and commercial radio became owned by the likes of Clear Channel, nevermind the vagaries and corruption, but what human construct is free of this?
The signal to noise ratio is hard to address. You can't be too egalitarian, else how to separate the wheat from the chaff, and who's to say which is which? If my readings are correct, good ol' Vinny Van Gogh wasn't considered much of an artist in his time, but eventually humanity caught up.
I have no answer to any of this. I really am optimistic about the future. Something (everything!) about the old way of doing things made me feel very dirty, just from sharing the pool, and you had to if you were in the business.
By best to you all,
H - zeruch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1A lot of bands are going this route. Living Colour and its numerous side projects (Masque, Yohimbe Bros., etc) are completely ok with trading live shows or out of print single materal. The same goes for jazz titan Steve Coleman, who actually has all of his out of print back catalog items ripped and online for free download.
Some folks get it. Others still take their cues from the record compnay management; India.Irie, Jonatha Brooke and Metallica come to mind. - goat2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1ive been using his argument for years
- tastypastry, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Reminds me of how Harvey Danger gave out their album for free and even used Bit torrent to distribute it.
- Raian, on 10/12/2007, -4/+4There is one way to steal music--- lobotomize the singer/writer, burn all copies, and memorize it and claim it for yourself...
- longterm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Treating your audience like thieves is absurd. Anyone who chooses to listen to our music becomes a collaborator. People who look at music as commerce don’t understand that. They are talking about pieces of plastic they want to sell, packages of intellectual property. I’m not interested in selling pieces of plastic."
What a ridiculous idea. If that's true, then all artwork, music, painting, writing, beadery, ceramics, pottery--and on and on ad nauseum--should be free. The person who said that obviously doesn't make a living as a professional musician. I do; I got a college degree to perfect my craft, have worked as a studio musician for 30 years, and know what I'm talking about.
Professional musicians--not hacks--make their livings from their craft. They put food on the tables for their families from the income they derive as professional musicians. The same goes for woodcrafters, potters, graphic artists, and so on. Just because it's possible to steal doesn't make it right. If I leave my lawn furniture in my yard without bolting it to the house, doesn't mean anyone has the right to steal it. Just because it's possible to illegally copy or download someone else's work doesn't make it right. - ElwoodHerring, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I'm a musician and composer, and I give all my music away for free. Try it.
http://www.herring.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/ - cartwheels, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Hahaha oh wow.
- longterm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I've worked in the music business all my life. I work with songwriters and artists every day, and I can tell you that songwriters work hard to come up with a song that will generate income for them. For every song that generates income, they demo another 10 in most cases, if not more; it's an expensive proposition to write, demo, and get a song into the hands of an artist who will then put it on an album that generates enough sales to make any money.
So far as touring being where the money is--where did that idea come from? That may be true for mega-bands whose ticket sales are huge and whose ticket prices are good, but for the bulk of the bands out touring on the road, touring is an increasingly expensive proposition. Here's a typical day's expenses:
food for band, crew
hotel rooms for band and crew
fuel for buses and trucks
equipment rental (lighting, P.A. in some cases)
the cut to the house where the concert is held
the cut to the booking agency
the cut to the management company
Then there's salary for the band and crew. If this is a big band, sure there's income from T-shirts and so on, but in many cases this is not going to make anyone wealthy. It's easy to look at concerts where the bands are playing for 30,000 people and say that touring is where the money is, but for many groups, it's not, it's just a way to make a living.
I'll certainly agree that record labels have been ripping off their artists for too many years, and priced CDs so high that it's no surprise that this rebellion finally happened. However, if labels don't figure out a way to stop illegal downloading, the music industry is going to suffer from less and less revenue to attract good songwriters and artists. - WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@mdeppi01
What a gay thing to say! - longterm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What a load of crap. I don't see him giving his albums away.
What about the songwriters whose works are being stolen on a daily basis? How do they continue to make a living?
Let's start giving everything away, and see how long that plan works. Let's give away all books, magazines, and while we're at it, why don't we give away clothing too. In fact, gasoline should be free, and so should food, housing...
I work for songwriters every day; they're working stiffs just like the rest of us, and when their songs are pirated, downloaded illegally, that's money stolen from them, plain and simple. You guys can whine all you want... - Morky, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0Our band (Melomane) opened for them in D.C. just last Thursday. They have a great sound and are incredibly polished. They also have great energy live for a band that is on the road as much as they are. I hope we get a chance to do it again!
- WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Yes....good points. but the even bigger problem seems to be that about 90% of the people who imagine themselves artists/musicians are really not, but are just too lazy to get a real job, or simply haven't found a career-type interest yet.
They imagine they can have the easy life of a top rock star.
I like to compare musicians to writers / typists.
You can know how to type, and be able to type or copy any word or sentence, and even type with perfect grammar -- but that does't automatically make you a 'writer', with something valuable to say.
In the same way, you might operate a musical instrument with great proficiency, but still have nothing valuable to 'say' on it. Just 'cause you can play a guitar doesn't mean you have a message!
Ohh...did i say 90%? I meant 99%.
I am just so sick of our overpopulated and constantly degenerating culture, with so much schlock music coming out every day.
Also, there are those few who do have something to say, as a musician or writer, but who may not be proficient on an instrument, or with a typewriter keyboard.
(Do they still make typewriters?) - koregaonpark, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1No Sir. Still juicing those reds. Can't have me boys go without cider can I?
- TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2"I don't get why bands don't start to cut out the middle man. With the internet these days that's all you need. You can reach the majority of your fans and sell your album straight from you and make more profit not to mention the merchandise."
Because you need the label's money to get you the promotion and marketing which sets you above the thousands and thousands of artists nobody's ever heard of.
Sure, it works fine for established artists, but those established artists got that way by signing record contracts and owe x amount of albums to their label. The last thing they want to do is GIVE it away and breach a contract. - pezholio, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0"The problem is that if artists can't make money by selling music, they'll start doing what the TV industry is doing: in-show ads and product placement."
If they've got no artistic integrity they will :coughrollingstonescough: - f0dder, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2koregaonpark 13
your turn in the apple barrel today? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -9/+5Music can't be stolen eh? *pirates even more music without feeling guilty*
- TimmyGUNZ, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Except Harvey Danger sucked, was a one-hit wonder, and probably had to do that because their label wanted nothing to do with them! :)
- cleverboy, on 10/12/2007, -6/+1Jeff Tweedy apparently needs to get out of whatever contract he has ASAP and start giving away his music online for free. Somehow, his words ring very hollow if he holds any value in the existing system. You really can't have it both ways.
If music "can't be stolen", I'd love to attend all his concerts, record all his music, and make it available on the Internet from my website. Maybe I'll download all his albums from AllOfMp3.com and upload them to Archive.org, referencing his statement on the matter. Hey, maybe I'll charge people for my index of the album and the lyrics.
Somehow, I think he'd sue me though. Go figure. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -11/+5I'm sure there's plenty more musicians that think like he does. But opinions like that don't make news, and they certainly don't make their producers any happier.
- cathars1s, on 10/12/2007, -17/+1The problem is that if artists can't make money by selling music, they'll start doing what the TV industry is doing: in-show ads and product placement.
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