What is Digg?67 Comments
- ericscampbell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Extremely F'ed up (most disturbing search difference I've seen between censored & non-censored Google)
http://images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen
http://images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen - Beautyon, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7If you were Sergei, what would you do? Let M$ run you out of China, or establish a foothold now with a reduced /censored service knowing that maybe in ten years China will open up completely and not censor anything, leaving you at the top in the most populous country in the world? If Google plans to be here in ten years time, then they want to be in China when it becomes censorship free. The only way to do that is to get in there now, whatever the cost. It makes perfect strategic sense to the long term thinker.
- acontorer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3This is a great catch. Funny how companies don't issue press releases when they do bad things. It's great to see a journalist (or anyone) publicly do the subtraction and call attention to what has happened.
Did they also pull their "do no evil" slogan while they were at it? - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2zetsurin said "Censor this: BIG ***** DEAL!!! Just let it go. Why is it news that a search engine is censoring results in a country that wants to control they way their populace thinks? Who gives a *****?"
Because they're an American country and do business here and if they'll sell out overseas for a mindshare and a buck, can you trust them to do the right thing on our turf? This is sort of like when you have a friend who treats people like ***** or is a racist, but you forgive him for it, because he's nice to *you*. Who cares if he is a total prick and a cheater or a wife beater or abuses his kids or hangs people from trees for fun, as long as he's nice to *you*... well... screw that. Sometimes right is right and wrong is wrong and you have to say so, even if you're not the one currently being wronged. - bryan8m, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I don't really care whether or not Google is making a smart business decision. The truth is that they have given in to censorship and the communist Chinese government. This is evil, no doubt.
- ozydingo, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3I have yet to hear one well-thought out argument for why this makes Google evil. It's all been simply a polarized "censorship is evil, google censored, google is evil!" Childish logic. I still maintain providing censored informatino is better than providing no information--would you penalize the Chinese population by denying them a useful service (yes, it will still be useful even if it's censored) just because their government has a qualm about certain pieces of information?
Good catch though. - anastrophe, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"censorship is evil, google censored, google is evil! Childish logic."
what's childish about it? it's quite straightforward, and genuinely logical. google is participating in censorship. instead of flipping the chinese government the bird, and telling them 'build your own censored search engine'. *they are participating actively in censorship*. if china censors the data entering their country, that's CHINA doing the censoring. google is now an 'enabler'. they're helping china censor.
this is direct participation in evil.
short your google stock now, folks, this is just the beginning. google != online utopia. sergei and larry are billionaires. 'don't be evil' is simply a cute catchphrase. too bad enron didn't think that one up, a lot of childish believers would still be claiming that enron is kewl had they adopted a brilliantly dishonest catchphrase like that. - Cameleopard, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"Those 2 examples are EXTREMELY (well, abetter word would be actually) IDENTICAL."
Actually, no, they're completely different. If you can't see the difference then you must be looking with your eyes closed. - algorejr, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2"..important to American society, Google's pervasiveness has given it a unique and privileged role as the information gatekeeper of the 21st century. “To Google” someone or something has become synonymous with using the Internet to find information, images or news. The New York Times has detailed the emergence of Google as an alternative to the traditional library for research. As individuals, businesses and publishers leverage its search, email and advertising tools to reach readers, sell products and assemble communities, Google is on the verge of becoming the Internet arbiter of the First Amendment." (http://www.perrspectives.com/articles/art_gagorder01.htm)
Now that China is Google's largest sponsor they have the ability to use their stature to affect the search results by simply telling Google which search results should not appear.
I can't believe that this will be restrained to the google.cn product.
China didn't buy Google, they did something much more important, they are now the single largest influence in the way search algorithms behave on google today and in the future for ALL of Google's product line.
Google - Made in China. - tedddee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1http://images.google.cn/images?q=天安门坦克
chinese for tiananmen tank - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm torn. I *love* google. Google has been my replacement in the spot where RedHat and Netscape used to occupy in my techie heart (last century, that is). I want to keep hoping that Google isn't going to turn evil and mediocre, but with the China thing, they've shown that their stand against the US Government isn't about the same principles we feel it should be. So that means they would cave to the US Government if really pressured to and if it would benefit them. Then throw on the possible interstitials and popups - not to mention the attrocious piece of crap that Google Video has turned out to be . . .
And I guess . . . I'm looking for a very solid Google replacement. I will not use MSN or Yahoo! or Hotbot or any of those. But . . . what else really is out there? Not that just copies google, but stays current with searches and features and continues to innovate as google continues to (try to) do? - lukes, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"If you were Sergei, what would you do? Let M$ run you out of China, or establish a foothold now with a reduced /censored service knowing that maybe in ten years China will open up completely and not censor anything, leaving you at the top in the most populous country in the world?"
Um .. The current situation (with censorship) does leave Google at the top in the most populous country in the world right now, today, not just in 10 years. And it's not in a China that has (partial-quote) 'opened up completely and is not censoring anything'.
Now, talking about what makes good business sense is not what people who are concerned or condeming of this situation are concerned about. Business sense and ethics don't neccessarily corelate. Arguing in defense of the ethics of the move by Google by pointing out the business sense of it is missing the point. - tedddee, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yep, but if you follow those links on the 5th page .. surprise they are dead/gone
perhaps a better comparison
http://images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen%20tank
http://images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen%20tank
:) - battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1It's great to see a journalist (or anyone) publicly do the ---
A journalist at the Register. Riiiiiiight. - feucht, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Google have made a rod for their own backs by touting the 'do no evil' line, and they must be pulled up on this if they sought to make capital out of their hippy ethics and then dropped them the first time they were tested against real world situations.
It reminds me of The Independent newspaper in the UK, which set itself up with the "It is, are you?" campaign and a pledge that no one organisation or person could own more than a certain percentage of the (private) stock. They kept this up until someone actually offered to buy more than this percentage, at which point they gave up on this lofty ideal and sold out to them - midorigin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Just checked, China's not on the list of local domains: http://www.google.com/language_tools?hl=en
- bluekangaroo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Interesting. Maybe they'll just pull the "do no" part of their slogan....
@ericscambell great links. That summarizes everything perfectly. I saw tanks in the .com one and buildings in the .cn version.
did anyone else get "That item was not found" when trying to go to the "Google explains china decision"? Maybe they've figured out how to censor digg....
Did anyone else get an - ericscampbell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Well reasoned argument (or at least my attempt) against Google's decision:
Corporations DO need to make compromises to succeed & support their shareholder's interests.
However, I think we can all acknowledge there is a limit to this... otherwise, we could justify slave labor, holocausts, etc... if it was the law of the land & helped corporations make a profit.
We should be debating *where* that point is.
The debate some people are stuck on: ("Corporations' only duty is profit" VS "Corporations must be ethically pure") is a useless argument -- both points are childish/idealistic & don't really exist in the real world.
I believe that massive censorship is a great enough evil that it isn't justified.
I respect the opposite argument, but I feel that those of you that are pro google should at least take the time to consider how important this is
Furthermore, I think Google could have used the "blocked in China" issue they were having to their benefit: Advertising (either official or under the guise of trade rags, blogs, etc) to the effect of "Microsoft & Yahoo censor freedom & democracy but Google Will Never Censor -- who do you want your search results from?" could have been a real winner ac cross most of the world.
...whoops, gotta go to dinner -- this argument could probably use a little editing but please consider it... - davdav, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Saw that on newsvine ericscampbell... Very interesting
- midorigin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1> > http://images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen
> >
> > http://images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen
> Those 2 examples are EXTREMELY (well, abetter word would be actually) IDENTICAL.
>
> No diff. Point it out with highlighter or something, you are not making your annoying point.
I'm seeing the exact same thing as well. Take a closer look at the URL and you'll see that google.cn is redirecting. I can't seem to connect to Google.CN at all. - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Extremely F'ed up (most disturbing search difference I've seen between censored & non-censored Google)
http://images.google.com/images?q=tiananmen
http://images.google.cn/images?q=tiananmen"
Yikes. This is full on censorship. Another reason for me to think that China is fascist. - Gatesophile, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0there is SUCH a big difference, batty. I hope you were kidding.
- leonbev, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1So much for "do no evil"!
At this rate, we'll be seeing Google Spyware and Google Spam pretty soon :) - cheebsmoker44, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1google does not stand up for the little guy, small businesses. the government needs to shut google down.
- bharbhar, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0im sure they are in a tough spot.. give them a break..
- RiddickRom, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I was shocked to read this. The sheer size and importance of Google gave them the ability to effect change. If Google and other leading search engines actually sat down together and agreed to no censorship then China would suffer greatly. It would put more pressure on the government to change. All that's happened now is that China understands it can bully anyone it wants and get its way. Their people must be looking out on this with great sadness.
A smart move in terms of the money Google will make but to not even try and organise a strategy with Microsoft, Yahoo etc. is just, well it really destroys the faith I had in Google. - Mist0r_Wiggles, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Poeple should of known that once Google went public, they are going to get influenced by big and rich governments. This is no surprise, and they will eventually turn evil. It's is just a matter of time.
- battybattybatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0And, completely untrue, all you need to do is check their cached pages!
- iaskedTGT, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0What you said is exactly what you intended to say.
- Elxx, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Yawn...I don't live in China, I like Google's search engine, I will continue to use it. If a company is going to do business in a foreign country, it must follow the foreign country's laws.
- ArcticCelt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0♪♫ Tah tah tam tam tah tam tamtah tam.... ♫♪♫
//Imperial march - eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Edit: It's still there with some slight modification to allow for China. But it's certainly not pulled
- alchemista, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Note that there is a difference between censoring in the sense of restricting results vs. modifying results. It gets scary when the results are modified.
- iaskedTGT, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0http://digg.com/security/Google_fixes_China_search_bugs_2
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-6032118.html - heretic, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0the problem is a human one...
eg. the Tienanmen square confrontation caused REAL people to suffer... aren't their stories (or pictures) worth anything? Obviously not to zetsurin :(...
I do believe economic trade with China will open their political system up (as it all ready has to some degree). And google is probably doing the right thing (making compromises now - looking to future 'democratic' changes) It just scares me that a billion people will grow up thinking "our government doesn't punish dissidents... the pre-eminent search engine in the world told me so". - tnoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ericscampbell: The famous pictures of the lone man standing in front of the tanks are on the .CN website, but they are not on the first page. I found a couple once I got to the 5th page of images.
- eqisow, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0http://www.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?answer=33406&topic=368
It's STILL THERE. Come on guys, The Register has never been all that reliable. - ericscampbell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0>episow ...certainly not pulled [regarding google censorship page]
it was gone for approx. 24 hours -- it disappeared Thursday afternoon (US time) and seems to have reappeared (in an altered form) Friday afternoon (US time)... - minitechnik, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0looks like someone has to grow an idea of a decentralized p2p search engine, that is not manipulatable.
i don't think, that someone new will battle what even yahoo gave up to... and yahoo definately has more power on this than any new idea can have - on the industry-side. google has no real competitors - what shall i use now, when it comes to the point msn and yahoo give away informations...and google just doesn't because they just introduced so many applications that have personal data ... that at this very moment it would kill these.
what is able to reject us from some "NationNet" for every single nation.
china is one of the first steps against the american led INTER-net , and american companies agree willingly for the local market.
the end of the internet has come. google is evil. - einsfahrt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0All of you supporting this censorship....if this was a christian Republican from texas would you be saying the same thing???? I think not, commies.
- 0Troy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wait, we ARE censoring?! Quick, change that answer in our help center "principals" section!
- madmathmatician, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0gee i wonder why they did that.....how convenient.
- ericscampbell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+02 replies:
>tnoo: ...pictures of the lone man standing in front of the tanks
> are on the .CN website, but they are not on the first page.
>I found a couple once I got to the 5th page of images.
Yes, I've read (and seen) that the Google censorship is not perfect -- they appear to be tweaking it (though I have no "inside" information about that)
>midorigin: ...I'm seeing the exact same thing as well.
>Take a closer look at the URL and you'll see that google.cn
>is redirecting. I can't seem to connect to Google.CN at all.
Very weird -- where are you connecting from? or what browser are you connecting with? I know some browsers will attempt to "help" you by connecting to the "right" language website. This seems to be the same thing that happened to Batty.
I'll see if I can't put a few screen caps up tomorrow morning showing you what I'm seeing (sleepy sleepy must get rest....) - JustinPM, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I truthfully don't see a problem here. Does it set a bad precedent? Sure, but the only people that should be complaining is China. The rest of us just speculate where Google will capitulate next. The people saying "Google is evil" are just blowing things out of proportion. If censorship in China was retracted today, don't you think Google would just as likely forget about censoring in the first place? Google is just trying to find a new market, and I for one think that's a good thing. Fighting censorship dictated by US law would be much easier than fighting China's laws.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Meh, they could just use Google.com instead, unless it's blocked through out the whole country.
- merrydeath, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0can we say animal farm?
- ericscampbell, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0For those of you that can't see the difference censored vs uncensored:
http://www.uploadfile.info/uploads/2931114ddc.jpg (120k file size)
is a screen capture of what most of us are seeing.
(feel free to copy this picture & host it elsewhere -- I'm assuming uploadfile will handle the load, but I really don't have too much experience with it)
Q: those of you that don't get a different view; where are you located & what kind of browser are you using? - SweeterThnEqual, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0:(
I hate all this bad news about google. - thelip, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Censorship is EVIL. Google is helping the Chinese government with it's technology to do something they were less efficient at, some things would slip through. I think that Google should just come out and say
"we were young, we didn't understand business so we had this naive view and motto. Now we are in it for the money so we compete like every other big corporation and ethics has a minor role". Come Guys be men and own up to it.
To those that say the Chinese Government is doing this and Google is only helping them do what they are already doing and that's OK, I suggest you read the transcripts of the Nuremberg trials . It's the same logic that the guards of the prisons used. If you help evil in any way you have become evil, you can rationalize it as "if I didn't do it some one else would so I might as well do it" but you have become Evil. - arniemg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Have I mentioned that the Register has it out for Google?
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