What is Digg?169 Comments
- iamjames, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7228mpg city and 35mpg highway from a 2.4 liter 4-cylinder, isn't that almost what they get anyway? How much of an improvement is this for a small 4-cylinder engine? 164hp total, compared to non-hybrid cars like the Chevy Cobalt's 148hp sedan that gets 25 city and 34 highway.
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2007&make=Chevrolet&model=Cobalt&trimid=-1
Toyota's 2.4 hybrid gets 40 city 38 highway and has 192hp.
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/Spec_Glance.aspx?year=2007&make=Toyota&model=Camry%20Hybrid&trimid=-1
My question: why buy the hybrid Aura when the non hybrid isn't much different? - ViperDaimao, on 10/12/2007, -0/+36Are they using the new 2008 MPG Estimates? With those, the prius gets something around 38 mpg I think.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -5/+18If you haven't watched the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car", do yourself a favor and do so.
Back in the 90s GM had an electric car. With contemporary batteries the few EV1s they did not destroy can go 80 plus miles an hour for a range of 300 miles. This technology exists now. Hybrids are a dead end.
The film showed that hydrogen powered cars, which need "5 technical miracles" to get to market, consume 4 times the electricity that pure electric cars do. That means are pollution producing coal fired electricity plants have to work 4 times harder.
It takes 50 electric cars to produce the same volume of emissions as one gas powered car and they cost the same amount of money to run as gas cars if gas was 60 cents a gallon.
If you want clean air, fast cars, cars with cheaper ownership ( no transmissions to fail ), and energy independence with existing technology lobby your state to make its own zero emission laws.
California doing that in the 90s got the electric cars to exist. - Satanael, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Hybrid cars ARE more efficient if they allow the car to actually drive on electricity. Some car-makers just have the engine shut off at stop-lights and keep everything else running with electricity; and then they slap the word Hybrid on it and sell it.
What you want is a Hybrid car that can actually drive on Electricity, then you'll start seeing insane MPG. - AmishRefugee, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14really, couldn't they do a lot better than 35 highway with a hybrid? I get 29 with a non-hybrid for the same price.
- duke, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13Actually, GM DOES get it. They have said on numeous occasions that hybrid technology cannot be justified. But they also know that there are a bunch of guilt-ridden customers out there who DON'T get it, who will pay for the car, and bring it into the dealer for expensive maintenance, thinking that they are saving the planet somehow. Very few independent mechanics would touch it, and proprietary equipment is probably needed to diagnose and mend it, leaving the service center at the Saturn dealership with the ability to pretty much name their price, once the warranty's up.
- duke, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12Only $22,000**
**(batteries not included)
:) (j/k) - cm728d, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12it is a saturn yes. I will admit that the late 90s was a horrible time for GM. Luckily things seem to be turning around. The Silverado won truck of the year and the Aura won car of the year. A very good indication of the turn around. It doesn't help matters that the Aura isn't really a part of the saturn family as it's heavily Opel. Regardless, hybrids are good but the number one complaint for all of them has been that the fuel savings don't outweigh the premium price in any reasonable amount of time.
- karlkrogstad, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10I don't remember the exact reasons quoted in the movie, but it boils down to:
1) How do you generate hydrogen? Cracking water into O and H takes a lot of energy.
2) How do you transport it? The molecules are so small they tend to escape easily.
3) How do you convert it to motion? Fuel cells aren't durable enough yet. Not to mention pricey.
4) How do you store the hydrogen on board? You need high pressure tanks, see number 2.
5) Since the ultimate result is generating power to drive electrical motors, why not skip the electricity->hydrogen->electricity dance altogether? Every conversion = energy lost.
Hydrogen is popular with the establishment because that vision of the future has a role for oil companies to generate, transport and store the hydrogen, and complicated finicky fuel cells or hydrogen combustion engines with a lot of complicated non-solid state parts that will need frequent dealer maintenance. Everyone's a winner! (except the consumer) - cawpin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9Um, Toyota hasn't surpassed them yet. They're close, but no cigar. They (Toyota) have had the most recalls and most recalled vehicles the last 3 years running so don't think they are some great force.
- shootdashit, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13i have a 1998 VW Jetta VR6. it gets 32 highway and 28 city. this is a hybrid?? from the same car company that had fully electric cars all over the streets in california only a few years ago.
- sikulas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9This is a sedan, not a compact car thus it shouldn't be solely measured against the Civic and Prius. Try getting a car seat in and out of the back of a 2 door Civic, and you'll realize how a good size family car, hybrid like this Aura could be attractive to families.
- ipodsweatshop, on 10/12/2007, -11/+20Honda Civic hybrid MSRP $22,600.
So I could pay more for an American car or I could buy a Honda. It's like deciding to stab myself in the foot or clip my toenails. I'll take toenails, I mean the Honda. - Freshjive787, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11i get 32 miles per gallon in my honda accord and its not even hybrid.
this is a marketing gimmick by GM. - WickedDrag0oN, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Id rather have my personal space rather than sitting next to some mental case whos gonna jizz on my head if I look at him wrong. I carpool with people I trust, and because I drive a civic hybrid and I split the weeks gas cost with my co-workers we end up spending 5 bucks a week on work travel.
- scootinger, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Absoluely PATHETIC.
28/35 mpg? Give me a break...you can get a V6 Honda Accord hybrid with the SAME gas mileage (compared to this Saturn's 4-cylinder.) And anyways other NON-HYBRID midsize cars have similar gas mileage...i.e. non-hybrid Accord gets 26/34. - Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6A comment about your post that is not completely directed at you.
I do not own a hybrid, see my above post, and people are generally quite surprised by the high MPG numbers I 'get' in my car. However I don't 'get' them I WORK for them!
While other drives are on the throttle until they're into the brakes for a stopsign/light I'm coasting in, having come off the throttle long ago. While other drivers are weaving through traffic jamming their car into any spot big enough to fit and then tearing off to do again I'm patiently waiting. While other drivers are tailgating the car in front and constantly having to speed up and slow down I'm riding 4-6 car lengths back allowing my buffer zone to let me keep a constant speed. When I get going from a stoplight I don't ram the accelerator down to see how fast I can get moving, I ease into the gas and attempt to keep the tachometer below 2k.
In other words I drive like someone who is concerned about MPG. Guess what? It SHOWS in the higher MPG that I 'get' (worked for) out of my car!
Want better MPG? Stop driving like a damned smacktard.
Don't like my comment? You probably drive like an idiot and are feeling guilty.
That's why the parent poster doesn't trust anyone elses MPG ratings. Too many people lie to cover up the fact that they drive like crack raged monkeys, burning through gasoline like it's free. - milhouse007, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8American Hybrids are a joke, if you want a Hybrid go Japanese.. American Hybrids are not getting much better MPG then the non hybrids..
I agree, "Who Killed The Electric Car" is a great documentary.
Tesla Motors http://www.teslamotors.com is making 100% electric cars, $.01/mile to operate.. which the electricity converted to the gas prices sets it at around 135mpg.. with 250 miles per charge, but they cost 92k.. ouch - inotocracy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Its not fugly, its a start.
- tastypastry, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8For that price your better off getting a VW Jetta TDI (diesel). They average around 40 mpg. Not to mention that they hold there value.
- thecatisdead, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7@scootinger
Yes, but the hybrid Accord starts at ~31K. You'll probably never make up the ~8K difference. GM's dual-mode hybrid system is designed to be cost effective to entice consumers to buy. Not many people have bought the hybrid Accord because it's extra price isn't justifiable.
Also, please note that import MPG seems to have dropped more significantly (%wise) that domestic MPG in most cases due to the new, more realistic EPA tests. - cawpin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6@viperdaimao - Yes, the new rating (non-import-cheating method) for the Prius is 41mpg. I drive a Cobalt with the 2.2 Ecotec and I get it is rated at 34mpg on the highway which is exactly what I get at 65-75 mph. If it is a slower speed limit like 55mpg it goes up to almost 40.
To those saying, "Well, I got my Honda for $19XXX. Big deal." This is MSRP, not actual sale price. Beat that and you get a cookie. - orbit1979, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5The Prius is a compact car, the Saturn Aura is a mid-size sedan. That would be the first difference.
- Buelldozer, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Forget your Accord, my 2001 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (3.8L SUPERCHARGED V6) manages 32MPG+ on the Interstate at 75-80MPH, and that's in Wyoming with lots of hills! On runs to Nebraska to see family I've managed 40MPG on straight and flat roads! This is with the family and all the luggage in the car for a week of visiting!
Where I get hosed though is in town, 18MPG if you drive it like a granny and that will quickly drop to 12MPG in stop 'n' go traffic or if you have a heavy right foot.
Hybrids are great in town, but out on the open road they're not all that and a bag of chips. - cawpin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5dfick is correct. The new Prius is only rated at 41mpg because they kept them from cheating with the new system.
- pianomahnn, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Indeed. I look at those efficiency numbers and keep thinking, "this can't be a hybrid..."
Poor GM...just can't figure anything out. - Urusai, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11I drove a 2001 Hyundai Accent with 28/36 mpg, plus it cost half that. GM is obviously trying to sabotage their hybrids just like they did their electrics.
- daylightfades, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6There are further problems with electric cars as well. While they do use resources much more effectively than internal combustion engines (efficiency is much higher), these are not flawless...
- Range is still too short. Yes, there are some batteries out now that can hold a greater charge, but they are extremely expensive, still take several hours to charge (versus 3 minutes putting gasoline in the tank), and oh wait, Big Oil owns the patents to a lot of them and refuses to license them for obvious reasons. This is why Toyota's RAV4 EV project died.
- The EV1 wasn't a particularly great seller because of its impracticality. The comment at the beginning the movie that suggests it met the needs of 90% of Americans is blatantly false. It's very small, seats only two (yes, this is a problem for even a young single male like myself), doesn't carry much cargo, and oh yeah, costs about as much as a mortgage payment! Great for people like Tom Hanks who can afford to "save the world" when he's not being shuttled around in limos, but not for average folks like me.
For the electric car to be feasible for mass production and use, the following technical 'miracles' have to be solved.
1. Must be capable of a range of 300+ miles on one charge.
2. Must be capable of charging in a reasonable amount of time (i.e., not 8 hours).
3. Additional infrastructure must be built to allow charging of electric cars away from home.
4. Must be affordable for the common man.
I do believe that EVs can be part of the solution to environmentally friendly and sustainable transport, but in their current state, they are no better than hydrogen powered cars.
In addition, I'd like to point out that the methods which the auto industry uses to assess fuel economy have changed over the past while, and EPA estimates are generally not 100% accurate. - handshakedrugs, on 10/12/2007, -4/+9Isn't $22,175 less than $22,695? Or am I missing something?
http://www.toyota.com/prius/ - bdxphoenix, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I have a 99 Saturn SL2 and over the past week I got about 360 miles (a little more) on a tank of gas (about 10 gallons). If I do my math right thats about 36 mpg. Sure, it was mostly highway driving (probably about 50 miles was city driving) but isn't that what the highway mpg rating is for?
I think Saturn is a great company, but honestly they've had normal cars able to get those numbers since the early 90s.
Just for the record, on average (city/highway driving) my car gets between 280 miles and 300 miles to the tank, which is usually filled with 10 gallons of gas. - alphaterminus, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6Regading the "Me" Generation. I'm 35. drive a 99 Toyota Corolla, and get 35 mpg. I would like to buy an electric car, that gets about 250 miles on one charge. But, NO! The car companies insist on that damn stinky heavy combustion engine assisted by electric motors. Why in the hell isn't everyone making electric cars with lithium phosphate technology? (I know about Tesla Motors, but want something around 20k?)
- cm728d, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5My point is it's a good starting point. The Aura is a good platform to develop from. The original Prius didn't garner all the accolades that the second gen did. Everyone has to start somewhere and a reasonable price for the technology is a good idea to base a hybrid off of (any car really). I am by no way anti--foreign cars. (I drive a Ren....I mean Nissan). For almost a century GM has been the number one car maker. With that came a lot of problems. They can't innovate to any great extend for fear of alienating their market segment.
Now that Toyota has surpassed them I hope GM takes the time to develop new ideas, like this one. Although the late creator of the Prius did work for GM first and pitched the same idea, the only hurdle was the cost. Toyota didn't solve that problem, they won't see a return on the Prius for years to come, they just needed to sell as many cars as possible to pass GM. I can't fault GM for their hesitation, many American jobs hang in the balance. - smartmlp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4It may have a V6, but it cost substantionally more. 10K is not worth the extra 20HP
- br10ta10, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I knew Hydrogen was a scam before I saw that movie, but I was shocked by those 5 technical miracles they talked about in WKtEC. Any time someone mentions fuel cells, I talk about those 5 issues and they are stunned.
However, California's clean air mandates didn't get the electrical cars to exist. The fact that electrical cars could be produced got California to mandate the zero emission vehicles. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4But public transport isn't good enough yet for people to really dump the car.
Personally I use my bike more than a car, but I understand why people use their cars all the time. Cities might be set up for public transport (could be better though) but the suburbs have made it more or less impossible to have great public transport by their very nature (UK and US) - Lou3000, on 10/12/2007, -3/+7Non-hybrids have better MPG than this car. It isn't worth the eventual battery failures and toxic waste that it will cause.
- diulei, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I agree, aren't there plenty of non-hybrid cars that get close to that MPG?
- myfanwy, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"and the layer of smog over the city was replaced with a layer of smug"
sorry, can't remember the exact quote - Chompy, on 10/12/2007, -5/+9I bought my civic hybrid for $19,500, so I dunno what crazy math this represents.
- carpespasm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4getting any sort of motorcycle gets you over 40mpg. Usually much more (50-80 depending on engine class). New bikes sell for 1500 (small engine, single cylinder)-10,000 (hyabusa that'll do faster than most sport cars). once you learn to ride it, the only reason to not use a bike is bad weather and storage needs, but you can still ride a bike most days of the week.
- JDoggqx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Pardon the ignorance, but what are these 5 technical miracles of which you speak?
- sonofagunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4There is a lot of misinformation going around, so I'd like to clear some things up.
Here are all the starting MSRPs of econo hybrid sedans (Lexus not included) from Edmunds:
Accord hybrid - $31,090 (28/35mpg)
Camry hybrid - $26,200 (40/38)
Altima hybrid - $24,400 (42/36)
Civic hybrid - $22,600 (49/51)
Prius hybrid - $22,175 (60/51)
Aura hybrid - $22,045 (28/35)
The Prius and Civic are classified as "compact" and the others are "midsize" sedans. The Accord and Aura only use the electrical motor as a "boost" and it's not as big as the electrical motors in the other cars. All of the other cars can run on electricity only at low speeds (I think). The Aura cannot do this, I don't think the Accord can either. This is why their city mileage doesn't exceed their highway mileage.
The Aura is just one of GM's 3 hybrid drivetrains. The first one was the "mild" hybrid trucks, which weren't really hybrids at all, in my opinion. Then there is this drivetrain which just uses electricity as a power boost, and shuts off the engine when stopped. It has regenerative braking and early fuel-shut off while coasting.
GM's 3rd hybrid drivetrain will be a "dual mode" hybrid and it will debut in 2008 in the Tahoe I believe, and will also show up in the Vue, Impala, and other larger vehicles. The VUE will supposedly be the first "plug-in" hybrid on the market.
A 4th future hybrid drivetrain was displayed in the Chevy Volt concept, although it really is not a hybrid at all, but an electric car with an onboard gas generator. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I don't think the line by Ed Begley in "Who Killed The Electric Car" that the EV1 could meet the needs of 90% of the people was a stretch. The range of the EV1 was more than enough for most people's commutes. Contemporary batteries, dropped into one of the few surviving ones, are even better with a range of 300 miles.
Back in the 40s when the roads sucked, if people had to take a long trip they would take a train. I only take 2-3 road trips a year. I would have no problem owning an electric car that would require me to hop on amtrack, a plane, or even rent a biodiesal vehicale twice a year. - astrosmash, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3My 1988 Pontiac Sunbird got 28 MPG.
- retrofitme, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5The Aura is a great car - good handling, good looks and given a car of its size, very efficient. I owned an XR for a week (rental) and put over 900 miles on it. I averaged about 27mpg in mixed driving. That's only 5mpg worse than my 89 civic wagon.
- sonofagunn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I like everything you said Buelldozer except I have an issue with large "buffer zones" in heavy traffic. If you have room for 4-5 cars in front of you, and you're going through a red light in heavy traffic situation, you just screwed 4-5 cars from making the red light. Those 4-5 cars are going to burn more gas during idle and acceleration than you'll save from POSSIBLY not having to hit the brakes and reaccelerate.
I don't advocate tailgating, but if there are people behind you who are going to get caught by the light when it changes, you're helping the environment, other people's time, and other people's sanity by just getting through as close as reasonable so that more people can get through.
Now, if no one's behind you, or just a few people are and they'll all make the light regardless, then this doesn't apply. - mywhitenoise, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3*$10,000 used
Civics are not cheap new. - djSyndrome, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You are missing something - the price of the Prius you quoted doesn't include destination, while the Aura's does. When you factor that in, the Aura undercuts the Prius by a Benjamin (it's $22,795).
Not saying the Aura is a better or worse car, but they did earn the title of 'least expensive hybrid', at least until the [rumored] Corolla Hybrid shows up next year. - cawpin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3And? 35 is most likely a conservative number, just like the rest of their vehicles.
- HairyPoter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3an hybrid does just 35 mpg? this is crap!
My Daewoo Matiz, with air conditioning or heating on got 48 mpg!!!!
and costs half the price. -
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