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130 Comments
- xero69, on 11/03/2009, -5/+146People are so short sighted, you spend a little today and save a TON tomorrow. I doubt Novell can filter spam nearly as effectively as Google for example. How many man hours are wasted sifting through junk mail with the current system?
- lemercier, on 11/03/2009, -0/+109I agree with the writer though... how much "training" does a person really need to learn freekin Gmail? Come on
- nerddtvg, on 11/03/2009, -3/+89But what's the long term cost? I highly doubt that the year after, it will be most costly to use Google than to keep the old system.
- Polycarp87, on 11/03/2009, -0/+66Oh, so the one-time cost of gmail is slightly more than the YEARLY cost of Novell? Lol.
Novell comes off like a jealous ex here to me. - ThsGuyRightHere, on 11/03/2009, -0/+64In all likelihood the IT department will save money in future budget cycles by laying off server and email admins or transferring them to other departments. Generally speaking most projects like that are planned out over a five year period, and the fact that Novell isn't mentioning the organization's costs or savings over that period speaks volumes.
- FormerBabby, on 11/03/2009, -0/+60Short ass "article" with ***** points. Anyone who is even slightly tech literate will know this is BS.
- zacharytelschow, on 11/03/2009, -0/+56"...the proposed system under consideration will actually cost taxpayers an additional $1.5 million in the first year."
And in every year after that? Years where no training is required and the city no longer has to maintain it's own email system? - HisTomness, on 11/03/2009, -0/+52Imagine that! A thing that costs some money now, but makes or saves more than it costs over time. There must be a name for such a thing.
- Alfarin, on 11/03/2009, -0/+40How much are they paying Novell for email services, related servers, and bandwidth fees? I'm sure the $1.5 Mil will look small after you take the future savings of using Google servers, bandwidth, and spam management resources into account.
- ThsGuyRightHere, on 11/03/2009, -0/+32Note that it's Novell pointing this out. You're only getting one side of the story.
- MrAwesomeMan, on 11/03/2009, -0/+27What a stupid article. First, L.A. is not switching to "free" email. Google's business email costs $50/user per year. That is far cheaper than most business email options.
Second, how do you write an article based on statistics thrown out by the loser in this deal? Novell is upset they lost a huge account, so they say it was a stupid decision. Suddenly that becomes news?
I could sum up this article in one sentence: "Los Angeles' smart email decision angers Novell because they will lose millions of dollars." - getjustin, on 11/03/2009, -0/+26To clarify: Los Angeles is not having everyone sign up for "free" Gmail accounts. They are paying Google $7.2 million to provide their corporate Gmail services. As for Novell's claim of costing so much more in training: I've used Gmail backend at a small company I worked for and it was INFINITELY easier to set up meetings and collaborate with Google Calendar and Docs than Outlook.
- Jaime2000, on 11/03/2009, -0/+24Investment?
- Xtanto, on 11/03/2009, -0/+21Shock News! Email contract changing from Novell to Google costs Novell MILLIONS!
- ThsGuyRightHere, on 11/03/2009, -3/+24Government employees are creatures of habit and in many cases are not technically literate. Sure there are office workers who will need minimal training to use basic email functionality, but other activities like scheduling meetings and delegating authority to send email would likely require some training. In local government you also have people who drive a bus or ride a lawnmower all day, then sign onto a workstation to check email and submit a timecard online.
- swefred, on 11/03/2009, -0/+16In year 1 yes it will cost alot more, but when you invest you look in the future what is the TCO over 5 tears? Will there be an ROI in this time?
Annyone counting a investment over 1 year could be fired.
- EdDiggEd, on 11/03/2009, -1/+17IT service folk are gradually being replaced by some sort of cloud-like creature. Makes me glad to be a coder. We're still only being replaced by cheaper humans.
- Jektal, on 11/03/2009, -1/+17"dude, just click on it."
"Uh, what?"
"Are you stoopid? lol"
"... So... How do I forward this?"
"NOOB!" - Polycarp87, on 11/03/2009, -3/+18We aren't talking about a bunch of internet geeks raised on this stuff like we all are. Many of these people lack basic understanding (from a lack of experience) of how computers work.
- MattB123, on 11/03/2009, -0/+15Sounds like Novell whining to me. There's almost always upfront cost when changing systems that produces a return later. Without that additional info to compare (how much ongoing cost/savings after the transition) this complaint holds no water.
- ChaotikBlu, on 11/03/2009, -0/+14I have never heard of such a thing. Maybe I should give it a try.
- mrsurfboard, on 11/03/2009, -1/+11Coming from someone who works for Municipal Government. Most of the woman who work for the town are just one step above retarded when it comes to technology. It would take an hour just to teach them how to log on.
- kingmanic, on 11/03/2009, -2/+12If you have a digg account you are likely more technically savy than a very large percentage of the USA. A lot of people use technology only because they have to and it panics them when new things are introduced. They need hand holding and re-assurance. Its simply how it is.
- ccpearce5, on 11/03/2009, -13/+23As a resident of Los Angeles I would like to point out that this city sucks so much donkey chode...
- JeniBurns, on 11/03/2009, -1/+10@kingmanic - If part of your job tools is email, it should be part of your job to learn how to use it. I don't really care what position you work in. In this day and age, ignorance is not an excuse. I don't put up with it in my workplace, and I never have. If you are unwilling to learn your job, there are other people who are. People who are unwilling to learn the tools of the workplace are, more often than not, ineffective, slow, and do not much more than draw a paycheck. I've seen this from all points of view; From being a cashier at McDonald's all the way up to working in Loss Prevention for a major bank, the people who refuse to catch up on the knowledge needed to do their job weigh everyone else down.
- mrsurfboard, on 11/03/2009, -1/+10Outhouse, just like every other MS Office product is overly complex and contains features not needed by 95% of users.
- Moralogic, on 11/03/2009, -1/+9It is better to be in debt for 3 years while investing in something that will save you more money in the long run than for 20 years because you were too short sighted to spend a little money to save you far more over time.
I just hope they switch to Firefox and get rid of IE too. The cost of computer replacement would go down enough to save some more money, or switch to Linux and save even more. - phogasmic, on 11/03/2009, -0/+8Stop being a crybaby Novell.
- jtown, on 11/03/2009, -0/+7You'd be amazed how ignorant the unwashed masses are. It honestly disgusts me at times. They need computers to do their jobs which is what pays their mortgages, puts food on their tables, puts their kids through college, and yet they're content to let it be some mysterious Magic Box that "does things".
The other day, I had to help a person with a process he's been doing for years. YEARS! He has absolutely no comprehension. "I click this, click this, select the file, click this, and this screen is all wrong." That "screen" was a window with a list of fields that were available for importing which allowed for adjustment of the import process. I fixed it by clicking "next" which took him to the screen where he got the exact same list in a different layout where he could pick which fields would go into his report. "Oh, you fixed it!!! What did you do???" "You see here in your notes where it says 'click next'?" "Yeah." "I clicked next."
He's been doing that process for ***** YEARS and has no comprehension of what is happening when he does each step. Not even enough to recognize the same exact flow that he's been seeing for years. He hasn't even taken the initiative to create a report template. Builds the damn thing from scratch every time. "Do you want a template so you don't have to build that report every time?" "No! Then I'd have to learn the process all over again!"
These are the kind of people who need gmail training and there are a hell of a lot of them.
Don't get me started on people who can't follow a linear list. "Gee, I don't quite understand step 3 so I'll just go on to step 4 and come back to that later." - pw378, on 11/03/2009, -0/+7Yeah, they should stay with Microsoft and Novell since both give their products away for free and never overcharge their customers resulting in millions of dollars in legal settlements.... oh wait...
- jdeane, on 11/03/2009, -0/+7While I agree with you for the most part, it's the 5% of users that use the "features not needed by 95% of users" that are generally the people who should be consulted with when proposing to migrate IT services to a new provider. They are the people who actually need to be able to do things only supported by Outlook and it's ilk.
- ohreilly, on 11/03/2009, -2/+9As a taxpayer I would not want any level of government I am paying for shelling out on overpriced crap like a fleet of Macs, when PCs are just as good (and their manufacturers probably provide superior leasing and support deals). Not to mention stuff like Office being far more intuitive in Windows (but that is IMO), and AD kicks ass.
- kingmanic, on 11/03/2009, -0/+6Initial costs exist and long term benefits are now negligible. It's a preference. Vista/Windows 7 vs Mac OS X differs in some things but generally a power user of each or a novice of each would perform relatively the same. There is no long term return on such a switch. You may have had a point 12 years ago but not any longer. All you get with Macs now are a slightly better thought out OS; vendor lock; 10-50% hardware premium; and a stylish case.
Some prefer macs and the extra initial cost and the vendor lock isn't a big deal to them. Others don't prefer Macs and there is no benifit to the switch. Its like a country switching from driving on the right to driving on the left. There will be initial adjustment period and initial cost to get the system going but after there isn't generally much benifit to it. - amasiancrasian, on 11/03/2009, -1/+7This is article is oversensationalized. Los Angeles will probably save money by making this switch due to lower overhead. Decisions like these will get California out of bankruptcy.
- MonoDede, on 11/03/2009, -0/+6I've worked in a similar situation as a tech intern and trust me a lot of these people would not know how to use Gmail. I remember one time someone asked me to put their email "on the desktop." I had no idea what they mean since they all used web based email, so at first I thought they meant collect their email into Outlook or Thunderbird, but that wasn't it. Later on I figured out that they wanted a direct link to the email login website on their desktop. They didn't know how to use bookmarks.
- Nicholas1989, on 11/03/2009, -0/+6To be clear though, it's just the women.
- commenter01, on 11/03/2009, -0/+5sometimes, if initial costs are too high, you'll never catch up.
- acknotSW, on 11/03/2009, -1/+6Most city workers I've dealt with might as well have "not my job" or "not in my job description" tattooed on their forehead.
- Alfarin, on 11/03/2009, -0/+5Because you think that server hardware rental/purchase, electricity, back up power generator, diesel for the power generator, power regulator, facility, cooling and ventilation, server administrators, server backups, backup hardwares, and other associated costs are cheaper than Google's per user cost for corporations, right?
Additionally, Google offers it for free for educational institutions, I am pretty sure they'd be more than happy to offer discounts (if not for free) for governments, not-for-profits, and other alike institutions. - MagicHobo, on 11/03/2009, -0/+5I would like to see an analysis of fixed costs vs. marginal costs. Of course it's not going to be worth it in the first year, but you would think at some point this might pay for itself.
- milwaukeesbeast, on 11/03/2009, -2/+7Actually youre making yourself look like the usual ***** that l.a. has a reputation for by saying this was a bad decision.
- pgriffinmonmout, on 11/03/2009, -0/+5So this writer is complaining that the START UP costs for Gmail will be more then the YEARLY costs of Novell? just l-o-l
- JeniBurns, on 11/03/2009, -3/+8I don't really care, personally, but my honest opinion is that if you're not willing to make an active effort to learn how to use the tools of your job, like email, there are thousands waiting in line for your job.
Also, it's effing Gmail. I'm willing to bet my next 3 paychecks there are at least 10 people who work for the city of LA who are willing to take the time to teach their co-workers, if a little boost was added to their paycheck for doing so. There goes the cost of frivolous "instructors".
Google Apps is NOT hard. Novell, as it always does to try to save their contracts, is trying to scare people who don't know WTF is going on. - atroxodisse, on 11/03/2009, -1/+5I see so often people who think themselves not "computer literate" refuse to even see if they can figure it out. They stare blankly then ask the first person they believe to be more computer literate than themselves, or they call the person who always can figure it out for them. People need to get past it and try to figure it out. And they'll never click on the help link.
- fortheworld, on 11/03/2009, -1/+5@kingmanic
"Technology should enable you to do more not demand that you learn it on your own time."
What about learning how to drive a car? A car is a piece of technology, and people have to learn how to drive it on their own time before they can safely use it on their own. You don't hear people complaining about "oh damn it takes so long to learn how to drive this car in the required safe manner on the public roads".
I agree with your point if you're a lawyer/educator/whatever you don't have to be as tech savvy as IT professionals, but if your job depends on the use of a computer system of any sort, you should learn it to the best of your abilities, in line with what your job requires. If you can't operate the machinery that allows you to do your job, then why are you doing it? If you need help, simply ask - that's what IT support staff are for. Support. I think the issue is people are too proud to be taught something by someone. - ThantiK, on 11/03/2009, -0/+4This isn't about Linux vs Windows vs Mac - I won't thumbs-down you but this is about having competent people running your services. They outsource all of this. They previously outsourced it to Novel technicians, they now source to google.
Google already uses Linux. Novel already uses Linux. Anybody in their right mind in the server world ALREADY uses Linux. - saikyan, on 11/03/2009, -0/+4Especially if you're moving off the nightmare that is GroupWise. What an unbelievably ***** app.
- macdup, on 11/03/2009, -0/+4When you host your own servers you need to keep them powered on 24/7 with clean power, you need to keep them cool, you need to keep them backed up, you need redundancy, I can go on and on. The article is incomplete.
- MonoDede, on 11/03/2009, -0/+3Yeah I understand that. People can definitely learn and they should be taught by their workplace. Learning to use a search engine is the best thing I've taught people before so that they learn to become self-sufficient. I was just commenting to attest to the fact that people DO need training to learn to use Gmail contrary to what lemercier believes.
- kingmanic, on 11/03/2009, -1/+4Not everyones job is to manage technology. If you are the company lawyer; being a good lawyer trumps being a tech savy lawyer. I work as a IT support/programmer/consultant for a medium sized non profit. My job is to enable others to do theirs and while email and computers are part of their jobs worrying about details and teaching the less tech savy is mine. While some of my peers here could teach the others it's better that it comes from the top. Technology does cause a lot of very competent workers anxiety. Their competence is in other important areas.
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