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130 Comments
- Aeaus, on 06/23/2008, -2/+58Or the fact that there's a growing perception that no matter how good you are you can be replaced with several low-paid outsourced workers. Something along the lines of the theory that a million monkeys banging at keyboards will eventually create the works of Shakespeare.
I make, for my age excellent pay as a MySQL/PHP guy, but I wouldn't ever dare staking my future income in the field. - kylere, on 06/24/2008, -4/+42This is merely propaganda to push for more H1B visas. There are qualified techs out there, and they have solid skill sets, but employers would rather imprt someone and treat the horribly while underpaying them.
- Hyperion1144, on 06/24/2008, -0/+34After spending years outsourcing everything they can, these companies are now surprised that people are reluctant to go into these fields? Serves them right, what goes around comes around.
- pigglesnout, on 06/23/2008, -12/+44Its because in the computer world, experience trumps education. If you are an experienced programmer you don't need a degree.
- inactive, on 06/24/2008, -6/+30Tech Degrees? BORING! I majored in partying suckers!
*hears mom yell from upstairs to turn music down* - Demmonn, on 06/24/2008, -1/+19I have been IT for the last 13 years and I find it strange that I have seen more lay offs and outsourcing in the last 2 years then I have ever before so do not believe every thing you read
!!!!!!!!!!!! - fatdefacto, on 06/24/2008, -2/+19Most of my friends who got 'tech' degrees are now manning helpdesks...
No thanks. - kaelyiesta, on 06/24/2008, -0/+16There are quite a few people who would have potential CS and EE majors think there is an increased demand but let me remind you all that the ones saying that are the ones that want more supply to lessen the cost of their demand. By all means pursue this field if it suits you, but don't for a second buy into the crap guys like bill gates spew about having an abundance of open jobs. Outsourcing and subsidized immigration of well educated non americans has definitely filled any need quite nicely and you are just one in a very crowded industry. Location does matter, but this seems to be true of seattle, and the bay area in my experience. I had to sit on the sidelines doing work far beneath me for several years before getting my foot in the door.
Unless you are either good at social networking and have some friends on the inside, have several years of industry experience already, or are a worker in another country with cheaper costs of living(and thus willing to work for less) you wont find it as easy to get a decent job as many 'experts' would have you believe.
And one more piece of advice: definitely go for internships while still in school. Thats the first thing I'd have done differently if I could. - Olfster, on 06/24/2008, -0/+16Why would anyone pursue a tech degree when it is common knowledge that eventually tech people get placed in the basement with their staplers.
- Beylan, on 06/24/2008, -0/+15Read this thread on Slashdot from 4 years ago and you'll know why there are fewer people graduating with 4 year degree's now...
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/06/213723 ... - noseeme, on 06/24/2008, -4/+18Yes. And the people who ARE pursuing tech degrees left Digg and started using Reddit.
- dgaspard, on 06/24/2008, -0/+13I would say that perception is actually going away. People are starting to realize they are paying for monkeys. They are burning themselves in the long run by outsourcing.
Keep in mind, the dollar is worth less each and every day, soon it will be cheaper for people in Europe to outsource to America. Eventually it will cheaper for America to keep everything "in house" Also, the people in corporate America are getting tired of dealing with the hassles of managing a project with someone who barely speaks your language on the other side of the world.
As for jobs. I think everyone on this board is crazy. With two years of java experience I get job offers twice a week. At 25 I'm making twice the income of the average person in New Orleans, and this is living in an area with no tech jobs.
I would say this is one of the few industries you can stake a future in. - aladrin, on 06/24/2008, -0/+10Last time I heard this crap, the consensus was that IT jobs don't pay well enough. You put years of your life and tens of thousands of dollars into it, and they pay you peanuts compared to other disciplines. People don't sign up to be underpaid unless they really, really love the job.
My sister decided to go be a pharmacist. Once she graduates, she'll start out making double what I do. Doctors, lawyers... Many non-technical careers make a lot more than the technical ones. - andrewjregan, on 06/24/2008, -2/+12Who's going to give you a chance to get some experience when you don't have a degree?
- fugazied, on 06/24/2008, -0/+9IT is increasingly outsourced to the Philippines, India and other countries. Its bleedingly obvious that a large percentage of the jobs will go overseas just as the manufacturing industries shifted to China. I work in PHP/Python/MySQL/Postgres/App development. Large companies won't pay me $30 an hour when it can be done by an indian for $10. I'm already looking at other fields and wouldn't suggest anyone start an IT degree unless they are an obvious guru or working in a highly specialised field that is not easily outsourced.
- HonoredMule, on 06/24/2008, -1/+9While there's far less room to apply deeper CS training to such trivial programming as the web usually entails, I guarantee you that the upper year courses will give you skills you don't currently have and can apply on occasion to improve the quality of your work or your underlying frameworks, tools, and high-level design.
It's easy to say that you're perfectly well equipped for a job when you are already capable of doing it and you start out a program by re-learning what you already figured out. But at the risk of sounding obvious...you don't know what you don't know. There's plenty that experience alone will never teach when it comes to such strongly math-based fields as ours. - sphoony, on 06/24/2008, -1/+9Admiral Akbar - "'It's a trap." Don't do it. IT sucks.
- Indrid, on 06/24/2008, -1/+9Well when the average salary for an IT degree is around $40-$50k/year there are more lucrative degrees to shoot for.
- bluezombie, on 06/24/2008, -0/+6Horse Pockey. A) Businesses abuse the tech workers they have. B) Businesses outsource and/or import workers they can abuse more easily. C) Knowing that businesses are abusive AND outsourcing, those persons with the brains to do the job go do some other job.
- norbiu, on 06/24/2008, -4/+10Wish that were true in my case. I'm currently "pursuing" a degree, just to have it. A CS degree would boost my wage and the chances to get promoted faster.
And the crazy thing is... there's NOTHING for me at CS, except that it's in the same field I want to work in. At the end of college I'll be a self taught web programmer with a nice degree, which is pretty sad actually that there's no web programming degree in the whole country, except specialized courses, but those are worth *****.
The only time you don't need a degree is when you're working for yourself. Unfortunately, that's not an option for everybody. - diablozx9, on 06/24/2008, -1/+7hmmm,
Aspects of what people call computer science can be self taught.
But,
I would like to see someone self learn semi-conductor design. - whyufail, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5Increasing demand? *****! Recent tech grad who hasn't found a freaking job anywhere in the neighboring states, one of which is in a freaking hiring freeze, and one of which is at 7% unemployment, for months now.
- ZenMojo, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5My generation tends to seek jobs we either 1) don't give a ***** about or 2) are secure in. Spending all of that time getting a tech degree screws #1 and #2 in one fell swoop.
- winampman2, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5Well, experience trumps education in a lot of other fields too, not just IT.
- hangingchad, on 06/24/2008, -1/+6Sure experience > degree, but $$>experience. Believe me, if they can replace someone with experience with a recent college grad, they will. If they can replace a recent college grad with an offshore worker with years of experience and that will cost less then the recent college grad, then they will. Tech people are on the lowest rung of any company and one of the first people to get laid off or outsourced when the CEO ***** up....excuse me...the market conditions don't warrant current staffing levels. Hell, IBM has need for many tech jobs but are only hiring offshore...even if there are qualified Americans, they won't pay the premium.
This article is bull. They make it sound like Americans aren't interested in technical degrees. It's not that, Americans are interested in jobs with a future. Any article that talks about tech jobs that does not address outsourcing is *****. - LokitheComplex, on 06/24/2008, -2/+7Until Java changes radically or they switch to something else. Then you are as good or worse as someone else 15 years younger trained up in the replacement.
- vanguardanon, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5I've been working with guys from India for nearly a decade now. I've seen a few stars but if you were to lump them together I think you'll find American IT guys are *much* better. They tend to buy into a deadline and come hell or high water they'll hit it. As a whole, Indian guys just run late. If I had a nickle for every time they said it was "done" but still had more to do on it I'd be retired. Finally, for 99% of the tasks it's a huge disadvantage to be in India.
Let's say that instead of programmer the task was being a translator. I tell you what to write and you write it. But not you're removed by a 10 hour timezone difference so every time you have a question or just get something slightly wrong we lose a day. It's terrible. Most IT work can't just be spec'd out and shipped over, there is back and forth involved. That's the key reason that outsourcing has been so terrible in my eyes. - diablozx9, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5I have been in tech for over twenty years and I agree with you.
- Xivx, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5be sure to put "self taught passion" on your resume
- rasmasyean, on 06/24/2008, -0/+5It actually depends on location, but currently IT / Engineering ranks amoung the top paying fields that require only a bachelors degree. But the current trend is that it's also pretty easy to ofshore them.
- Renian, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Depends. It's kind of hard to offshore a network engineer.
- ell0bo, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4I graduated from PSU about 2 years ago, and I'm already the lead web developer in my division. I can sit here saying that I didn't learn a single thing the entire time, and I thought that while I was in class. It only dons on my occasionally how much I actually learned about CS when learning about things I never thought I would use. People are often confused by things I find trivial, but I only find it trivial because i was introduced to it in theory back in class.
Believe me, you'll be suprised how much you actually learn in college, assuming you go to a good school. Don't stop teaching yourself though, if I had I wouldn't have gotten any of my internships, co-ops, or my first job. - aladrin, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4You are. There's nothing stopping you from doing odd jobs on the net, either for yourself or for other people. Rent-a-coder comes to mind. Yes, you'll be underpaid. But If the choices are:
a) Pay $30k+ to a college, then get paid normally
or
b) Take jobs at lower rates for a while, then get paid normally
I know which is the cheaper one. (And better, if you learn well on your own.)
Every programmer at the company I work for is self-taught now, and the prior school-taught programmers didn't last long. (To give them credit, they designed and implemented the original system, which has been replaced twice now over the last few years.) - dgaspard, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4I said the place doesn't have a lot of tech jobs. I didn't say the area was desolated. Since Katrina more money than ever has been pumped into the city. Stop being an ass.
- dgaspard, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Part of being in the tech industry is staying on top of new technologies. It is what makes good employees so valuable (and expensive). It is a hassle, but being able to adapt keeps you on top. Your experience with project pitfalls and programming hurdles will make you excel above someone who hasn't experienced those problems yet.
Even though I'm using java professionally now I am also playing with python because it seems to be the trend of the moment. I'm doing this because of the exact reason you stated. But like I said learning new technologies is part of our career.
If someone is being replaced by someone 15 years younger, that person needs needs to ask them self what are they doing wrong. - ZenMojo, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Ask John McCain's cochair Carly Fiorina what her opinion on outsourcing is. :) I'm sure she got a lot of experience handling those visas before she was kicked out of HP.
- brettg102, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Go to a university with mandatory paid co-op. You'll leave with two full years of industry experience and your degree. There are hundreds that do so. Best decision I ever made.
- Midtowner, on 06/24/2008, -1/+5IT is one of those few fields where no one really cares about your degree as long as you can do the job. Also, with all of the news we hear about IT jobs being outsourced to India, why would anyone spend 4 years and thousands of dollars on tuition in order to become the 21st century equivalent of a horse-buggy whip manufacturer?
I majored in communication though -- while it was a hell of a good time, I ended up having to go to law school in order to be employable. So maybe a CS degree ain't so bad? - inactive, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4Why has it been replaced? Twice?
You view is rather naive. A college education brings more that just programming skills, assuming you did it right. - commentbot, on 06/24/2008, -0/+4If it were less stressful and better paid, I would have stayed in software dev.
- flickr, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3I'm fairly sure you speak for Tech 'Diplomas', all my friends with Tech 'Degrees' are making > $60000 right out of school.
- duffman03, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Why would you pursue a tech degree when the job your looking for is likely to be outsourced?
Rhetorical question. - inactive, on 06/24/2008, -1/+4most
- deadbaby, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3I've worked with a lot of college educated co-workers (I am not) and I've always been surprised how uninterested many of them actually are in technology. I dunno if college burns them out on it or they just went into CS thinking they would make a lot of money but whatever the cause is I have noticed that, almost as a rule, non-graduates seem who have landed a tech job just seem to have more of a lust for knowledge, posses more practical knowledge, and generally just know how to get things done. Just my personal experiences though, I hate to generalize without a warning.
- kurtwinter, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Maybe if the "business leaders" didn't outsource every conceivable IT job and ***** over remaining staff with pay cuts and pay packages that no longer meet the cost of living... ***** them. Let them pay even more in the years to come.
- 00Dan, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3A tech degree where you design and build vs. a law degree where you sue the people who design and build for copyright infringement and make 10x as much.
If I had to do it all over again I would have been an electrician. - r00tus3r, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3I don't think you've spent much time looking in the classifieds if you can honestly say that no one cares about if you have a degree or not.
- rasmasyean, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3Manufacturing is in China. IT is in India. Research for the most part is in USA still. But all those researchers make tools that makes manufacturing and IT so much easier that you don’t need a degree to do it (in light of “efficiency”). Too bad for those people who don’t make it to researchers…they are bound to lose their jobs eventually. If you’re gonna get a Tech degree these days, you better plan for grad school.
- JQP123, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3"If someone is being replaced by someone 15 years younger, that person needs needs to ask them self what are they doing wrong."
And the answer is ... staying in tech too long.
As I said elsewhere, the half-life of a tech career is about 10 years. At some point, the only way to avoid competing with younger, lower paid drones ... is to move out of tech.
Tech companies prefer younger workers for two reasons 1) they're paid less; 2) they're more productive (at least they're more willing to put in extra hours).
Sorry, long term prospects for a tech career are not very good. Which is undoubtedly why so many young people are avoiding the field. - Ryvenn, on 06/24/2008, -0/+3But that's computer engineering isn't it? So wouldn't that put it in the engineering field rather than the tech field?
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