What is Digg?38 Comments
- Supernova36, on 10/12/2007, -0/+10"Kevin Rose can work out what his $60m is actually worth.."
So he can buy a couch more quickly next time. - maxa, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8I've always thought of money in this way: it's a distributed, publicly held debt. Instead of a giant ledger book keeping track of who owes who for what, we have cut the book into individual pieces, called cash, each representing a positive balance in the name of the bearer. If you have a bill, it's like having a plus entry in this giant ledger.
If I do some work for you, and you pay me, at some point in the future, I can call on anybody in society to do something for me in exchange for the work I did for you way back when. That person then can get paid back for the work they did for me at some point in the future.
In a side note, money is an arbitrary measure of value. If you read Native American lore, you will find formulas for building a canoe to read something like "the length of the canoe is two men long, and the width is 10 hand-spans." In a civilization, we develop arbitrary measurements, like inches and meters. Similarly, instead of saying one cow is worth ten chickens or five blankets, we have an arbitrary measure of value, like the dollar or the Euro. It has no meaning or value in itself, it's just an arbitrary standard like meters or liters. We could use another standard, but the point it we all have to agree on a standard. - unidentified, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5"Everything you need to know about money and technology."
No where in the article did it say where I could get some of this.... "money." - TB65, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Money and the Fed:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-466210540567002553&q=mises - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Fine then. I'm going with my left hand. I'd say we might get a choice.
- ejan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think you're absolutely right, but it's not a bad thing. Money isn't actually anything with value, but it represents something that can be used for goods and services, and as long as it's accepted, it serves its purpose.
- EntropyMan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Yes, but services has to include anything one might do to get money, which is pretty broad. Even on the products/goods side of things, you never really own the thing, but instead obtain the rights to use the thing as you wish, within certain broad limits (e.g., you don't have the automatic right to burn down your house most places).
In a sense, we can consider trading those rights as a sort of service too. For example, I agree to pay you $1000 if you agree to sign over the title of your car to me. Am I paying you for the car, which no one truly owns, or am I paying you for the act of signing over the title?
For objects that don't have such official statements of rights, the idea still works -- only we're trading promises not to accuse each other of stealing.
Anyway, it all comes down to money having no intrinsic value, despite what your economics prof will say. All value is perceptual and the perception of value is most often based on what a given quantity of money will get others to do (i.e., services, transfers of ownership rights). - Kazrog, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3A cool article. However, PINs are not as secure as people think, at least not in the USA. In fact, a lot of the Windows-based point-of-sale software on cash registers here has bad middleware that stores the PINs to a log file locally on the internal hard drive, which any savvy employee could offload to a floppy and take home!
- Ascus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Cash (or some form of anonymous payment) will always be here. There are two many times where the buyer does not want any record of the payment.
For example, I still use cash for grosher, liquor and convient stores, the last thing I want someone to research is my eating or drinking habits. Especally my insurance company, I m sure if I was tippng the dancer at the bar, I would want to do that in cash too. - toconnor, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"Take it a step farther and you can see a drop in muggings" - but the number of hands being cutoff will skyrocket.
- mutatron, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Grocer, not grosher.
And if you were tipping a dancer at a bar, she would probably appreciate cash too. - cpemma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The point is, we're getting away from a paper-based economy...
- lasvegas, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2A floppy? whats that?
- capran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Whenever I think about electronic money, I remember this old TV show called Time Trax. The main character, a time traveler, had this "supercomputer" AI which was conveniently encased in an object made to look like an ordinary credit card. The AI could magically game the electronic money system so in effect the main character had unlimited money.
Then I think about my bank account and my three debt accounts (student, credit, loan), and wonder, well those are just numbers stored in computers somewhere. If only I had a way to make the zeros and ones representing my debts turn into zero value, and my bank account a huge positive value.
Of course, I'm no hacker or criminal, and have no idea how to do that. But one can dream... - z0iid, on 10/12/2007, -3/+4come now, stop with the doomsday crap. it won't happen until AFTER the trumpet sounds and the believers meet Jesus in the sky on the way to heaven. No trumpet sound yet, so, no forced "mark" yet.
so chill out. and if you are a believer, you won't have to worry about the "mark". - cpemma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1You're overspending at the liquor store, your text is slurred.
Tramp: "Buddy, can you spare a dime?"
Passerby: "Do you take plastic?" - cpemma, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Cos it's got a bit of a tech slant...
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Money is something that makes me do things I don't want to do to buy things I don't need so I can impress people I don't like.
- jsares, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I don't want a cashless society. Call me a luddite but I like the privacy and security of cash. When you have cash in your wallet you always know how much you have. You don't need to check a website or ATM, you just count it. And when its gone its gone. You never need to pay it back like with credit.
- capran, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1chuckle. I thought of that too. Perhaps the money chip could be implanted in your brain, and have additional safeguards such as a constant body temperature, heartbeat, brain activity, to stay valid. Maybe it could even use a "PIN" code in the form of a particular brain wave signature that's unique to the owner.
At the moment of death, or if the chip is removed, it instantly becomes inactive and can't be reactivated. - hardmoney, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0http://www.mises.org/money.asp
Follow the link for another view of what "money" is, and how it changed over time. An interesting point is that the move to government-sponsored, intangible monies gives governments much more freedom to silently inflate ("debase") our money than was ever possible with physical coin. In the age of commodity-metals-as-money, debasing was limited to how much you could shave or dilute a coin before it didn't look like the original anymore. With unbacked paper/bit money, governments can create new "money" at will in unlimited amounts, silently eroding -- "taxing" -- the value of your income and savings. In the US this happens through a complex interplay of the federal reserve, the treasury, and commercial banks, which somewhat hides this reality from view. It's of-course possible to have paper/electronic money backed by some commodity to limit silent inflation -- it's just not happening anywhere in the world at the moment.
In the US, the transition from metal- to unbacked paper money took over 200 years. Most of us have never even seen a gold or silver coin, whose value is driven by market demand for its metal content, rather than the number inscribed on it. - choppergirl, on 03/22/2008, -0/+0Digg is just a clone of Slashdot. Its not even worth a million if that... I mean, where does it generate any revenue at all? Ads? Nobody even looks at or clicks on them. Its bleeding money.
- Technopundit, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I've been wanting to give those telepreachers the back of my hand for some time now.
- DriverDan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0[EntropyMan]Anyway, it all comes down to money having no intrinsic value, despite what your economics prof will say.
If your economics professor tells you that money has intrinsic value he shouldn't be teaching. Fiat money has no intrinsic value.
[maxa]I've always thought of money in this way: it's a distributed, publicly held debt.
That's exactly what money is, at least in the US. All cash is a debt of the Federal Reserve. On their books currency is recorded under liabilities. - shertel, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I agree with your distributed publicly held debt concept, except where does that leave the government?
Everytime a transaction is performed (getting paid or giving pay) they've got their hands in it (quite against the wishes of the Constitution, but thats another argument). - Barnstormer, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1A printer-friendly version would have been nice.
- rockhauler, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Milton Friedman "Money Mischief"
http://www.amazon.com/Money-Mischief-Episodes-Monetary-History/dp/015661930X/sr=1-1/qid=1164839049/ref=sr_1_1/002-3909506-7066417?ie=UTF8&s=books - choppergirl, on 03/22/2008, -0/+0Article is dated, prisoners only use cigarettes as currency in prisons where smoking is forbidden; in smoking allowable prisons they use packs of RAMEN NOODLES, which are about the equivalent of 33 cents. When gambling at the tables, RAMEN NOODLE packs are thrown in like chips. A cigarette there is about 1 or 2 cents (bugler/kite non filtered self rolled deathstick). In a non-smoking prison, a cigarettes can fetch upward to $60 dollars a pack.
- friedman420, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0all you have to go is go really far back in time and put a penny (or whatever) in the bank, eventually the interest will accrue and it will be worth millions.
- littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Try not to be short-sighted. The implications are pretty vast.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpj4HRmJFiU - luvdownbabylon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Thank you for posting the link.. that is an excellent place for people to get started learning about the real issues with money and the economy.
The Fed is at the top of a huge skim off the entire economy. It is the biggest and one of the oldest cons going. It is not even really part of the government. It is a PRIVATE BANK given monopoly power over creation of money in the US, a power that is SUPPOSED to belong to CONGRESS but they were bought into giving it up and keeping quiet.
Money is really shorthand for barter. In a natural economy, you may have pigs and need rice, but the rice guy has no need for pigs and wants sugar. Rather than run around trying to trade pigs for sugar so you can get your rice, groups of people start to use something of value that is compact and easy to trade, like metals. The worth of a pig versus so much rice is relatively stable, as is the relationship of anything else to some metals, most of the time. So it is a very convenient system compared to barter.
Money, be it bars of iron, cattle, copper, silver, gold coins, or what have you, is usefull because people commonly agree to use it in place of complex barter arrangements. It speeds up the economy of actual trading of tangible value for value goods.
It got more complicated when organized thugs calling themselves kings started claiming ownership of the commons and demanding taxes, tarrifs, tolls, and other extortions on peoples in exchange for "protection". Once you get used to being ruled, your life can go on but you have to pay your taxes. So the weight of what people "agree" to use as money shifts to what the king wants taxes to be paid in. If he'll accept some grain and farm produce, or any other tangible, then fine. Anything can be money. But if he insists on something else, then that will become what people use as standard money. England used to use tally sticks... long poles with notches that were split. One half you kept and the other half the king kept to be sure you didn't add notches to your stick. Some of the original shares in the Bank of England were bought with these sticks. By the way, the BoE was also another play on words. It, too, was a private bank. But Federal Reserve and Bank of England sound so official, don't they?
The reason the Fed is a scam, as are most other central banks and even many of the banks under them, is that they are allowed to commit a certain kind of fraud. Because of the evil known as Fractional Reserve Banking, the bank doesn't actually have to have all the real tangible money (gold, a metal) on hand to pay back out to the folks who have 'money in the bank'. This is why scares that cause runs on banks cause them to go bankrupt, like in the 20's. They don't really have the money. Moreover, they are lending out money that does not exist. They LITERALLY make money out of THIN AIR, and CHARGE INTEREST. That is FRAUD. They don't really have the gold or any thing else to back it. It is the crookedest thing going right now. And as the Rothshchilds have known for a long time, it is far more profitable to loan money to kings than to commoners.
What this means is that we have a crooked arrangement going where the government gets to spend upmteen billions of dollars in value it does NOT have by borrowing from the Federal Reserve bank. EVERY DOLLAR printed comes with DEBT back to the FED that the government owes. So how does it pay that debt? More Taxes. In fact, the other great pile of BS going now for decades is the Income Tax that you pay on wages earned. We are so used to it now that we think it is normal, and buy into the notion that this is how our roads and schools get built. But that is not true. Most of that comes from property taxes.
If you are smart, you will NOT want to keep around a lot of liquidity. Keep your savings in something tangible, so it cannot suffer from the whims of inflation/deflation that are intenetionally created over years to prop up and then fleece entire economies. Put out more money and loosen credit to rev up the ecocomy, build value, then WHAM pull out the extra notes from circulation and call in your debts, increace rates to tighten them up and what do you get? Depressions. The banks got something like 40% of the privately held farms in foreclosures. Nice way to amass wealth, if you are on the inside.
The "powers that be" never appreciated our little American experiment, and those same families have been determened to bring us back under their thumbs. They have done a good job. They don't care who makes the laws so long as they own the currency of a country. Just think abou it... Could you survive without money? Not many can imagine how. It all comes back to needing it. Even if you own property and can otherwise fend for yourself, you have to have some for the property tax. Do they accept your pigs and chickens? No. You need dollars. What if you could fend for yourself but don't own property? That works so long as someone is nice enough to let you fish and hunt on their land, and set up a camp or a homestead. But that's not likely. The property owners more than not will want some rent, to help them pay their taxes and either have your rent feed their faces (so they can emulate the kings... medium monkey hit by bigger monkey goes and takes it out on little monkey) on the sweat off your brow. Or they may charge little only caring to have you help pay the tax they are obligated to pay. But that usually only happens in family. If you are lucky.
Think about it. Money used to serve us as a social aid to trade. Now it is a chain around our necks, by design. From servant, to master. We are so damned dependent. Think of the basics... food, shelter, water. Most folks can't provide those for themselves anymore. Independence my ass... we are in a sad way. We are being brought up to be as vulerable as babes in the woods. We are the most dependent peoples I know of.
But hey, when the ***** hits the fan most of us, I hope, will realize we never needed a "them" anyway, so long as we have eachother. But should it take so much to bring that point back home to our (intentionally) stranger-phobic, self-centered, rat race, dependency-driven society? I hope not.
Much Love. - Dragonglass, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Couldn't a mugger theoretically just CUT OFF your hand? I mean, seriously. This won't drop muggings, this will drop casual muggings. Hardcore muggers will just be more guilty. I like the idea quite a bit, but as long as the web is truly anonymous, anybody can act like anyone, and identity theft will be a problem.
I'm thinking we're going to have to have an "upright" circle of the web, where each person gets an identity which they are stuck with, like their real name is in real life (but they could make it different from their real name if they wanted). Though there will still be plenty of places to go for anonymity. - RicktheBrick, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Money is an incentive to do work. Only when one thinks they needs money will they than offer their labor do get the money. Automation is decreasing the need for labor so products that use less labor will cost less. If everyone had a million dollars than almost no one would even consider doing any work which would make the million dollars worthless. Until robots are invented to do the menial labor we will need a certain amount of poor people. These poor people are needed to have the incentive to do that work.
- davids1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1This article has little insight into the reality of global economics currently shaping our world.
Believe and invest what you will. - Wootery, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@littlebylittle
I hope you weren't trying to use the bible as.... proof, of your Deus-Ex-style-credits prediction.... proof and the bible do not mix.
That's the only way I can see to interpret your post - the 'mark' being a nanotech implant. (An 'augmentation', if you will ;-) - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+2Why again is bit tech, a case modding site, writing articles about money?
- littlebylittle, on 10/12/2007, -14/+9[From Article] "We're standing at a true turning point in history - cash, the physical medium of exchange, is becoming obsolete. In its place are credits a la Deus Ex and it's not hard to envision a future (particularly with nano-scale circuitry) where your account data is IMPLANTED RIGHT INTO THE PALM OF YOUR HAND. Our entire current concept of money will be gone, replaced with 1s and 0s that are with us at all times."
[From Bible] "He forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to RECEIVE A MARK ON HIS RIGHT HAND or on his forehead, so NO ONE COULD BUY OR SELL UNLESS HE HAD THE MARK …"
Just so we all understand where it's heading. It will happen too. - dankoleary, on 10/12/2007, -8/+2The last page is the most important, dealing with electronic funds:
http://www.bit-tech.net/bits/2006/11/29/the_technology_of_money/4.html
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