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190 Comments
- gfw123, on 10/12/2007, -12/+72Force Field? Don't think so. Quite the opposite.
One radar looks for threats.
One radar track threats
Something 'top secret' shoots it down (a gun maybe?!?)
Sounds just like a improved Phalanx system to me. Maybe one
that doesn't need to spray bullets (which would threaten ground
friendlies) or one with very short range ballistics. - thenativeraver, on 10/12/2007, -3/+33http://money.cnn.com/services/tickerheadlines/prn/200603301515PR_NEWS_USPR_____DCTH048.htm
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060330/dcth048.html?.v=44
http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=22954
Links to the story^
video:
http://media2.foxnews.com/040606/040606_fr_tobin_300.swf - yppiz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+25Here's a nice writeup from Defensetech:
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002230.html
They describe this and several competing systems, and point out some of the limitations:
"The hard-kill defensive warheads launched by the vehicle resemble huge shotgun blasts to shred incoming projectiles, and would prove highly lethal to anybody nearby. 'When you put it on a vehicle that is going to be around dismounted soldiers, you have to have the ability to turn quadrants on and off, to avoid the collateral damage,' Nadeau said."
The article also mentions that the Soviets used a system like this in the 1970s, and that it fired shotgun-like blasts of ball-bearings at incoming rounds. Great for armor defense, not so great for nearby support personnel.
--Pat - crazyfan, on 10/12/2007, -9/+25Well, thats why I wrote it in quotes because while its not like in Phantom Menace with the Gungans, its somewhat works like a forcefield, its in the right direction to say the least
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+18Someone in the tank throws out BeanieBabies at the projectile.
- Dradis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+17http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS
It's possible that it uses some kind of short-range ballistics, however I doubt it (particularly the phalanx theory) for several reasons, some of which have already been mentioned: would represent a threat to surrounding friendlies and/ or non-combatants, would require a large, unwieldly amount of ammunition (I doubt a type of shotgun is used because it doesn't have the necessary rate of fire), the amount of ammunition fired by a Phalanx system is enormous (can you imagine 4500 rounds minute spraying a city street? Not a good idea).
Perhaps it's some kind of laser system, or something that causes the warhead to detonate prematurely, I honestly don't know. Maybe someone else could provide some alternative theories to the Phalanx one. - dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15I agree. Sounds like something akin to a very short range, powerful flak round. Essentially a radar and camera controlled shotgun.
What's interesting is the system to control this ballistic. Is it really so fast and accurate as to provide a "bubble" of protection? The demo was showing 180 degrees of protection. - brownb2, on 10/12/2007, -1/+15It very likely the DREAD weapon with a sophisticated local radar.
Recap - DREAD is gun that spits out ball bearings after spinning them to extreme speeds. Obviously you can shoot the bearings in any direction and retarget fast by moving the hole on the spinning disc (which is what accelerates them). It is highly accurate and fast, however to be absolutely certain you hit the missle you could adjust the rate and spread of fire to cater for calculation errors based on the rough estimates of velocity and direction.
This is very likely the reason why it just disables the explosive but doesn't stop it - its just a ballbearing hitting it.
More on DREAD here:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7365 - rdas7, on 10/12/2007, -4/+17It's obvious from the footage that this system is based on Chuck Norris' fist.
- NewEvolution, on 10/12/2007, -3/+15Railgun?
Considering it has a radar to find the initial firing, and another to track the incoming progress, it would be fairly easy to shoot down the projectile at a predetermined distance after computing its trajectory. The main reason I can see for letting it get so close to the target vehicle is the increased accuracy of the trajectory calculations and a higher hit probability. The reason I say railgun is that magnetically induced projectiles attain ludicrous speeds at firing and therefor don't have to be compensated for the travel time from firing to target in the trajectory calculations. Additionally railgun rounds have no likelihood of exploding if hit by enemy fire, and take up less space per round than conventional ammunition, as they have no propellent in each round. Finally, you wouldn't need a very large round to inflict massive damage on an incoming piece of ordinance that is already designed to explode on impact. Even a round the size of a .22 caliber bullet moving at 10x the speed of sound is going to have a catastrophically destructive effect on a target filled with explosives. Kinetic energy FTW.
My biggest concern is, what if the insurgents fire RPGs at a vehicle from both sides at once? How fast can this thing re-acquire and/or re-aim itself? I'd not be surprised if it could track many incoming rounds at once, as our aircraft targeting computers have been able to do this for years. The real concern is if whatever is firing the rounds can pivot fast enough to take out multiple incoming rounds in quick succession.
In any event, nice bit of tech. I'm still waiting for wartime lasers and tank cannon sized railguns though.... - kakapu4u, on 10/12/2007, -2/+14Do you by chance work for Diebold?
- thewise1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+12"No, it's not. One of the main problems why tanks don't fare well in built up areas is that it's easy to sneak into a nearby building/ allyway/ rooftop/ etc. and fire on them, without them seeing you or being able to fire on you. The limited mobility and target aquisition capabilities inherent in such situations makes built up area warfare extremely dangerous for tanks."
True story. That's why I always die in Karkand when I've got the tank :( - surfactant, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Looks like it might use a high-powered microwave or laser beam - something that can focus well at close range, but can only turn on for an instant because of extreme power draw.
- JimV, on 10/12/2007, -3/+11If you WTFV (Watch The F'n Video) then you'll see that the system does launch a "top secret" counter measure at the incoming RPG.
- thewise1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7"What happens when some kid throws a rock at the tank though? :p"
natural selection. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9What's racist and *****-ish about calling Israelis Jews?
I guess next we can't call people in the U.S. Americans.
I'll admit, he might have been trolling..but 1. it wasn't a good troll and 2. nothing wrong with calling Israeli folks Jews. - pr0t0, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8In fact, it's exactly entirely unlike a force field; in that there is no 'field' and that the 'force' in force field is generally thought to be passive whereas this is not. Great journalism.
Instead of saying it's like a 'virtual force field', it might have been more accurate to say it works like a miniature version of the phalanx cannons that protect ships.
Not that the average joe would know what a phalanx cannon is. - ownedbytheman, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8That's what it sounded like to me too. As a matter of fact, in one of the first shots "alongside" an incoming missile, you can actually see "pieces of something" of some type fly past it momentarily, originating from the direction of the target.
- deepsub, on 10/12/2007, -3/+10Only if you have the Krayt Dragon Pearl and Upari crystal.
- NewEvolution, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8After checking it out, my money is on the DREAD system. It's omnidirectional, provides multiple projectiles in the target's direction maximizing hit probabilities, and has all the same nonvolatile ammunition characteristics that the railgun does.
@ ph713 - The reason bullets are bullet shaped has more to do with their method of firing than it does with their flight characteristics. Having the cylindrical shape allows the sides of the bullet to mesh with the lands and grooves of rifling inside a gun's barrel. It's the thereby imparted spin that provides the accuracy, not the shape of the round itself. A sphere is the most aerodynamic shape possible, as shown by the fact that raindrops are perfectly spherical. Spheres just make crappy bullets, as the barrel of a gun cannot put a uniform spin on a sphere. The barrel DOES put spin on it, just not the same spin for every sphere, therefor the spherical projectile will not have repeatable accuracy. If you fired both bullet-shaped and spherical projectiles out of some hypothetical gun with a smooth and entirely frictionless barrel, the spherical projectile would be more accurate, du e to its better aerodynamic properties.
Now, on to the DREAD system. Seeing as the projectiles are not propelled by a charge down a tubular barrel, but instead are released from a dead rest in a high-speed rotating drum, the differences in spin between the multiple projectiles released per "shot" would be negligible. There would indeed be some spread between the projectiles as the first one in the grouping would be released several milliseconds before the final projectile, but in the case of this force-field application, that slight spread would work to its advantage in successfully impacting the target.
I really couldn't see the DREAD weapon being used as shown in the linked video, mounted on Hummers and Apaches, but for this speciality application taking out incoming ordinance, it seems ideal. - Takteek, on 10/12/2007, -5/+11Not really a forcefield, but still extreeeeeemmlly cool.
- mgreenwald, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7I *think* it fires a pack of shrapnel like a shotgun at it. Watch the high speed video footage carefully I could clearly see something hot and white fly towards and then contacting and breaking the RPG. It couldn't be parts of the missile since it is flying in a different direction.
- Malakin, on 10/12/2007, -10/+16I like how Fox "News" is the only one that thought they would jazz it up and call it a "force field" including images of a force field bubble in the video.
- hammerattack, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8It's quite obvious from seing the video that there are several small projectiles that intercept the warhead. The marketing department at this firm found some unwilling dupes in the media to misrepresent their technology. However, it is still interesting because unlike reactive army, it can defend more than once. However, because it is radar based, it'll be easily confused with chaff. In fact, you could confuse one of these just by using a cellulose casing for most of your rocket design, and coating the slug in radar absorbing material.
- nrbelex, on 10/12/2007, -2/+8Anybody remember the Paladin tanks from C&C Generals?
- scaaven2, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5-digg inaccurate. this is not a force field.
- nrbelex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5From there:
"The response comes from two launchers installed on the vehicle, one on each side. The launchers have a pivoting/rotating ability and thus are able to fire in any direction the computer requires. The launchers fire the neutralizing agents which are usually small metal pellets like shotgun shot. The system is designed to have a very small kill zone so the lethality outside that zone is small. People standing next to the vehicle should not be affected by the firing of the TROPHY system." - HottSauce, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8But do you have to lower the force field to beam someone in or out?
- FriedGeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Um. here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TROPHY_Active_Protection_System
- mojo0510, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6This seems more realistic than a laser which would have a fraction of a second to heat the metal enough to cause damage.
- Dradis, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7"This type of warfare usually is done from afar from populated cities, done on the outskirts."
No, it's not. One of the main problems why tanks don't fare well in built up areas is that it's easy to sneak into a nearby building/ allyway/ rooftop/ etc. and fire on them, without them seeing you or being able to fire on you. The limited mobility and target aquisition capabilities inherent in such situations makes built up area warfare extremely dangerous for tanks. - reversial, on 10/12/2007, -6/+11Not exactly a force field then, more of a "throw stuff at this rocket, and hope that it explodes when it hits it".
- crazyfan, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6You have to have redirecting on, I am able to see it in Firefox.
- solidcube, on 10/12/2007, -6/+10Sounds similar to the ARENA and Krysanthemum systems which have been mounted on Russian tanks since the late 80s.
If I were to hazard a guess as to what sort of projectile this fires, I'd have to say EFP or explosively formed penetrator. EFP projectors are very short, the dimensions of tuna cans, so they're very easy to orient. They work in a manner similar to a shaped charge-- there's a chunk of explosive and then in front of that there's a copper plate which is punched out by the explosion into a shape similar to a badminton birdie. Many modern EFP weapons fire out a central slug surrounded by a ring of smaller fragments.
When FOX says something is like a starwars forcefield, you can be sure that's the last thing it's like. I enjoyed his theatrical pause when he said that: "Almost like a.... science fiction forcefield." Almost like it.... wasn't scripted. - Dorkbot101, on 07/15/2009, -1/+5surely not as effective as a force-wielding jedi.
- DougPenn, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8Can lightsabers penetrate it?!
- Arramol, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5How do we actually know it's ineffective against multiple rockets, or that it couldn't be adapted to handle multiple targets if it can't already? They didn't exactly go into great detail about its capabilities. If it can fire, re-orient, and fire again in a short enough timespan, it might be able to handle multiple rockets. It's not like the insurgents can time their shots down to the microsecond.
- AlmostEvil, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@Connor2k:
"It could be small emag devices that deliver an electromagnetic pulse large enough to disrupt the projectile."
RPG's are a mechanical and chemical reaction. An electromagnetic pulse would not affect them.
As to the details, Google knows all:
http://www.defense-update.com/products/t/trophy.htm
It has detailed photos of the system. And gives greater detail on it. It also mentions being able to simultaneously engage several threats, so the fire more than one rpg thing wouldn't work.
Also, see http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=israel trophy defense system shield&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 for loads of urls on this.
It seems to have an arc of coverage, like say 45 degrees worth of coverage. So if you have a few of these mounted on an apc you can probably get total 360 degree coverage to neutralise rpgs coming from any direction.
To quote from the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TROPHY_Active_Protection_System) article on trophy:
"TROPHY (in Hebrew: "%u05DE%u05E2%u05D9%u05DC %u05E8%u05D5%u05D7", lit. "Wind Coat") is a protective shield system for both light and heavy armored vehicles that intercepts and destroys missiles and rockets with a _shotgun-like blast_ just before they hit."
So it's a projectile shotgun type system. - thewise1, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3watch the video again, this time concentrate
- 12340987, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4http://www.upi.com/SecurityTerrorism/view.php?StoryID=20060330-052409-4703r
Says it shoots a rocket at the incoming RPG. I guess Fox News' term for "we don't know" is "top secret" or "force field."
This technology seems 10 years too late if you ask me. - Lord_oftheTrons, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Some crazy skit right there. They can throw that on a helicopter too, and that definitely helps out. The video mentioned it would not protect against torpedos like the one Iran tested. So whatever the countermeasure is it does not work in water. Makes me wonder exactly what it is. From the video it almost looks like the explosive part of the RPG was cut off and falls to the ground. Good find.
- YourTechSupport, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Pretty sweet. Video was fast as hell tho, we need more video like that!
- Lumiras, on 10/12/2007, -5/+8Nice gigantic video link that loads super fast. Great link. Now how does this system actually work?
- skyhighrockets, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5Watching to video I noticed that the warhead is actually detonated when it gets within a certain range, tracked by the radar. So, It almost seems like some sort of spot concentrated wave (eg. sound, radio, UV, micro, electromagnetic? etc waves) or even maybe a laser of some sort that is specialized to detonate the war head safely out of range.
I may be wrong but I do not think that any sort of physical shrapnel or device is shot at the RPG, because the rate of success and probability of it hitting it correctly to only detonate the warhead would be small. - leqin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I wonder - back in the late stages of WW2, when the Germans were busy launching streams of V1's across the channel into Southern England, the one answer that the Royal Ordnance came up with that worked more or less 100% of the time was a type of percussion artillery shell that only needed to be close enough to the V1 and not a direct hit, because once its percussion charge was set off the V1 literally blew itself up. I have some old film of V1s being picked off like a duck hunt and - even though the speeds are a little different - the end results look amazingly like what this shows.
Isn't a force field, in the true science fiction spirit of the word and idea, a invisible shield created by the excitation of atoms into such a state that they refuse to allow matter to travel beyond the shields boundary. I'll check my Arthur C. Clark, but even so that makes it that this is not a force field - it is a very fast firing quick reaction Phalanx system yes - but not a force field that Scotty or Geordie would recognise. - Juano11, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3People that are saying that it couldn't be some kind of projectile because a projectile may injure nearby personnell are missing the fact that the RPG IS GOING TO BLOW UP A FEW FEET AWAY!!!
- Eturnip, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4microwaves.... lasers.... grow up folks. It's a grenade. You could pitch a softball at it and blow it up. If you were in the tank or truck with a missle coming at you would you rather have some energy wave that may or may not do the trick, or would you rather shoot something back at it hard enough to blow it up before it gets to you. So no... not a forcefield, but a super fast accurate radar tracking system... which is still pretty cool. Maybe even cooler since it may actually have other uses.
- nrbelex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3http://www.defense-update.com/products/t/trophy.htm
"Once an incoming threat is detected identified and verified, the Countermeasure Assembly is opened, the countermeasure device is positioned in the direction where it can effectively intercept the threat. Then, it is launched automatically into a ballistic trajectory to intercept the incoming threat at a relatively long distance.
Specific details about the composition and mechanism of this explosive interceptor device are vague. From the briefing provided by US sources, Defense Update understands that Trophy is design to form a "beam" of fragments, which will intercept any incoming HEAT threat, including RPG rockets at a range of 10 – 30 meters from the protected platform." - MasterDwarf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Hmm...A countermeasure. Forcefield is a stretch.
- deepsub, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7I read an article a few years ago about ultraviolet 'electrolasers'. It was intended for use in a 'beam taser' in which an ultraviolet laser would be aimed at the target (a person), and since the photons in UV are high energy, the air would ionize, and this ionization would allow current to be pumped into the target in a manner similiar to lightning.
Perhaps this is what the top secret countermeasure is.
From Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon#Electrolaser ):
"Electrolaser
An electrolaser lets blooming occur, and then sends a powerful electric current down the conducting ionized track of plasma so formed, somewhat like lightning. It functions as a giant high energy long-distance version of the Taser or Stun gun.
Alternating current is sent through a series of step-up transformers, increasing the voltage and decreasing the amperage. The final voltage may be between 108 and 109 volts. This current is fed into the laser beam. To complete the electric circuit, there should be either a second laser beam, or a ground return from the target to the last transformer in the step-up series. This electric arc could kill or incapacitate a human target through electrocution. Any electric or electronic devices in the target may be seriously damaged, disabled or destroyed. Because it relies on the blooming effect, there must be air or some other gas between the electrolaser weapon and the target.
Blooming
Laser beams begin to cause plasma breakdown in the air at power densities of around a megajoule per square centimeter. This effect, called "blooming", causes the laser to defocus and to lose energy to the atmosphere.
" -
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