What is Digg?218 Comments
- Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -100/+413Before the comments are overrun by people criticizing the 'rebellion', here's an explanation for those who don't understand it:
It wasn't about 'the numbers'
It wasn't about 'free speech'
It wasn't 'just a bunch of immature whining teenagers'
What Digg did went beyond any DMCA or legal issue. They censored stories and comments that had nothing to do with 'the numbers'. They went beyond simply deleting the offending content, and deleted user accounts.
Lots of people were banned just for talking about the censorship or criticizing digg! Posts like this one were getting peoples accounts deleted.
The Digg staff showed their true colors yesterday. They do censor, and have censored in the past, anything that they just don't like for whatever reason. THATS what prompted the rebellion more than anything.
If they need to delete 'the numbers' then fine! it's the law, we get it. But all you need to do is delete the number thats ALL. They went beyond that and started deleting whole stories, stories that only linked to 'the numbers', stories that simply discussed 'the numbers', and stories that discuss the censorship? HOW DO THEY JUSTIFY THAT?
Digg lost a lot of credibility yesterday, if you don't agree then you probably don't belong here. Go watch Fox news and fly your 'corporate shill' flag all you want. - GawtMilk, on 10/12/2007, -20/+250Or you could go outside.
- bsolidgold, on 10/12/2007, -12/+121It's NOT illegal to make copies of your own DVDs. Thus, this number should be in the public realm. The DMCA is contradictory in this matter, however. It says Decrypting movies is illegal, but you're allowed to make backup copies... which is it???
- n8r0n, on 10/12/2007, -14/+78Ok. We get it. Digg users rioted. We all know this, we ARE Digg users. I am getting tired of this already.
- GottIstTot, on 10/12/2007, -2/+49You know, I can help but think that this whole controversy is very very good for the HD-DVD format. Sure, it will increase piracy, but it will also increase the format's awareness. Basically HD-DVD just received a HUGE boost in advertising. With stories about the "Digg Revolt" hitting Forbes, BBC, Cnet, this has to be good in many ways. Many linux fans and others can now use HD-DVD hardware in their systems to play movies. This might be the end of the format-wars, unless of course the Blu-Ray keys are "leaked" this week...
- CraigJ, on 10/12/2007, -4/+46Screw you guys, I'm going home...
- Sandkat, on 10/12/2007, -7/+44How is this getting old? The story of the Digg Revolt of 07 is less than a day old and is now just starting to be picked up by major news agencies.
- Philluminati, on 10/12/2007, -4/+36I don't want porn and illegal material to be riff on digg but I don't want supressed news either. They may start deleting stories of rival social sites, or reviews of products that rival the sponsors sites. I doubt they will anytime soon but if it's a choice of all or nothing - I'd rather they supressed nothing!
- Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -9/+40@Beatmiser
You said it yourself. The numbers are irrelevant.
99% of those involved would never even use them and those who would use them would inevitably get them elsewhere.
What part of "It wasn't about 'the numbers' It wasn't about 'free speech'" did you not understand? - merdiesel, on 10/12/2007, -14/+45This is getting old??
Someone must be upset they missed out...
Last night was the single most exciting thing (next to discovering porn) that has happened on the internet in a long time. - TheTap, on 10/12/2007, -8/+35I agree, it's been beat to death. Let it go.
In related news, as I've discussed this (rebellion) with a coworker today, I've had to explain to about 15 people what Digg is.
All I get is: "if it's that popular, how come I never heard of it?"
... because, of your 100 bookmarks, 80 are to mySpace pages.... - Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -14/+41I hate to repeat myself, but you're obviously misunderstanding me.
I fully support(and expect) them in doing what they have to do to not get sued. In fact thats exactly what they should have done and this never would have blown up.
All that was required of them legally was to remove the any instances of 'the numbers' from the website.
So why didn't they just delete the numbers? who knows, maybe there's a good explanation. IF there is, we certainly haven't heard it. Instead they deleted and banned any discussion(including legitimate discussion) on the topic.
Then, to add insult to injury, and fan the flames a bit, they started deleting and banning any discussion of censorship. Are we not allowed to discuss censorship on Digg? Are we not allowed to speak ill of Digg in any way or discuss their policies? Time will tell... - tokyomonster, on 10/12/2007, -77/+101RE: diggtatorship
If digg really censors things constantly, as you imply, wouldn't you think this would have happened ages ago? What happened yesterday WAS ridiculous, it WAS childish. It was a bunch of immature users that decided to turn on a FREE online service provided to them as a place to gather and aggregate interesting stories. This FREE online service is also provided by a PRIVATELY owned company who can do and say as they please with their properties. If the Digg users that were unhappy with the decisions made by Digg, inc. (which, by the way, were made in order to avoid litigation in order to continue serving the community--remember, Diggs only revenue is ad income, they have no way to monetize as of yet, and so I doubt they're very profitable) they should have stopped visiting the site, and used the free and open source Pligg model to make their own COMPLETELY democratic news aggregation service instead of attempting to destroy this one.
IF anyone showed their true colors yesterday, it was the extremely ungrateful Digg community who seems to be asking for more, and more with out attempting to give anything back. It was a shameful display of selfishness that really shows how spoiled some kids are.
And to "Digg lost a lot of credibility yesterday, if you don't agree then you probably don't belong here. Go watch Fox news and fly your 'corporate shill' flag all you want.", No, YOU don't belong here. If you don't agree with the site, and their policy's, and I don't believe any one is forcing you to visit the site. Go grab pligg, upload it to a server, and make your own ***** site instead of ***** with ours.
Gah! - ninti, on 10/12/2007, -21/+44Agreed Diggtatorship. I hope Digg learns the right lessons here, it's obvious that the news papers covering this aren't getting the point. If the admins had handled this properly they could have kept this from becoming the explosion it was.
1. Be transparent and upfront; silently deleting messages does not work, people will notice and your attempted secrecy will only aggravate the situation. You need to tell people what is going on, so communicate it.
2. If you do need to delete something, don't delete people just talking about it. If there is anything the Internet community hates, it is censorship. If you make an unpopular decision just live with the debate, name calling, and complaining; it is part of being an Internet community. This isn't the first time you have deleted user accounts and squashed debate because it was critical of Digg, but you finally got burned by it. It would be smart to never do it again. - scotus, on 10/12/2007, -14/+35has no one put this in a context all you whiners can understand?
1. There are free speech issues involved here. The HD-DVD people are trying to use a law to engage in a prior restraint against anyone who posts this number. Have you looked at the DeCSS gallery before? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/ . Protected speech? Or unprotected infringement? And in this case, this isn't even an executable program. I bet a tiny, tiny percent of people here even have any idea what to do with this number. I sure don't. It's not a circumvention device, and allowing speech to be censored online in the name of intellectual property does not bode well for the internet as a medium of communication.
2. People were not just upset about Digg blocking the number. Many people understood they were protecting themselves. People were upset because Digg was deleting entire stories (including comments) and deleting posts that did not contain the number. I had a post deleted just for discussing the legal issues involved. It did not contain the number, and neither did any other post I made. That went above and beyond what Digg needed to do to protect itself from lawsuits. It demonstrated real callousness to the community.
So try to think a bit more deeply about this. It may have looked a bit juvenile at times. But deep down it wasn't. This wasn't a riot. A protest or a revolt, maybe. This was about speech online and Digg treating its users with respect. - leftfoot, on 10/12/2007, -16/+33This is getting old.
Can we move on now? - worldsbestgamer, on 10/12/2007, -3/+20Technology certainly seems to help a lot of lawyers get rich. Everyone is suing everyone over it.
- wild, on 10/12/2007, -14/+30GawtMilk, thats the second comment you have made today that cracked me up. Thanks. :)
- redavni, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Blu-Ray was cracked as well by the same method, at the same time, by the same people, using the same keys, and yet no one on digg seems to know it.
I really don't know what to make of that...but whatever. - racerfan, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14Folks on Digg may be "bored" by the continued coverage, but the pick-up of this by the BBC, Forbes, etc. is HUGE for Digg and the other social networking sites. The traditional media doesn't react as quickly, so this "old" story, for folks on Digg, continues to pick up coverage in the mainstream outlets.
- All4not, on 10/12/2007, -1/+14It will also increase the awareness of digg.com to people that haven't heard of it before. Although the article does make it sound like digg is linking to copyrighted source code and not a decryption key.
- Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -21/+34@mt066 - Nope, I'm done thanks.
@ajh16 - I can apreciate that that may have been the case, but if so why don't they say so. Also, why don't they unban the users who were unjustly banned, and un-bury the legit stories that were censored? If Digg was justified in what they did they certainly have done a piss-poor job of explaining themselves.
@dkm201 - Consider it done
@tokyomonster
RE: diggtatorship
"If digg really censors things constantly, as you imply, wouldn't you think this would have happened ages ago?"
It happens every day. You never hear about it because they: A. delete the offending story B. delete the user C. ban any IP address that user has ever connected from. They have gotten away with silencing critics in the past, yesterday the got called out on it.
"What happened yesterday WAS ridiculous, it WAS childish."
The Boston Tea Party was also ridiculous and childish. I'm not presuming to compare the magnitude and implications of the two events, but the principles behind them are almost indistinguishable.
"If the Digg users that were unhappy with the decisions made by Digg, inc. they should have stopped visiting the site, and used the free and open source Pligg model to make their own COMPLETELY democratic news aggregation service instead of attempting to destroy this one."
Yeah, thats a great idea, if you disagree with something, don't voice your opinion, just leave. It's always better not to question those in power.
"If you don't agree with the site, and their policy's, and I don't believe any one is forcing you to visit the site. Go grab pligg, upload it to a server, and make your own ***** site instead of ***** with ours." (yours? don't you mean ours?)
I think one thing we can all agree on is that Digg is simply THE best place to get news online. I would prefer to keep it that way rather than watch it loose its relevance and integrity. Which is why I refuse to just sit there and act like nothing's wrong when legitimate discussion is no longer allowed on digg. - Octopie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+12when you guys say the numbers you mean 4 8 15 16 23 42 right
- Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -4/+16@MrStaby
O RLY? and where have I flip-flopped?
Lets see, I started out this thread saying: "But all you need to do is delete the number thats ALL."
Then I ended it with "All that was required of them legally was to remove the any instances of 'the numbers' from the website."
Just to humor you I've read my comments repeatedly looking for anything that might be considered flip-flopping.... care to point it out maybe? If you're going to confront me, at least do it with facts or opinions, lies will get you nowhere. - Shdwdrgn, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Something I haven't seen anyone cover in these threads... There are still a lot of people who really care about what goes on in our world and would love to be able to do something about it. For the most part, those of us in the USA are feeling essentially powerless to change what's happening around us. People try to write their congressperson to express their views, sometimes they attend protests, and no matter what we do, some corporation comes along with their huge bankrolls and either buys off votes or hire lobbyists to sway the votes. The little guy never wins when a majority vote can be had to the highest bidder.
Last night's fiasco here on Digg, however, shows that people ARE still paying attention to what is happening, and more importantly, they WANT to be able to make changes. With the power of the internet, and a system where votes and personal opinion really does matter, a real difference can be made, and individual's voice can be heard, and changes can be made that are better for everyone. So instead of continually bashing what happened last night, perhaps people should be looking more towards the positive side of what happened... The people made a stand and a policy change was made. If this sort of power was available to the people to change what is happening in government, imagine how we could shape this (or any) country! Of course I'm sure that politicians in general will cower in fear at such an idea.
And for those who will inevitably argue that the people *do* have that kind of power now, need I remind you that we as a species are generally lazy and will always go along with whatever option requires the least effort? With computers and the internet now at our disposal, we have the ability to make our voices heard, with extremely little effort. We just need a forum where those voices could be heard, and actually acted upon... - BlackAdderIII, on 10/12/2007, -2/+13"""Diggtatorship. You can't use the free speech argument with a private company! """
Erm, he said a long while back that people weren't. If you're in the habit of replying to comments you haven't read, you're going to be wrong. A lot.
"""What you're doing is called "flip-flopping" to save face..."""
No, "flip-flopping" is what the world's biggest liar accuses people of when he's scared of them.
Being called a "flip-flopper" is a compliment. - ninti, on 10/12/2007, -8/+18"This site is not a democracy. It is a privately owned company, and their TOS specifically states that any time ANY sort of DMCA Takedown Notice is filed, they will FOR THEIR OWN PROTECTION remove the offending material rather than face litigation. Furthermore, as it's in their TOS they are not beholden to explain bans or takedowns to anyone. Don't like it? Leave."
As has been mentioned in this thread several times, this wasn't about the key as much as about the censorship. Are you reading before you post? Because you really should, it will make you look like less of a troll/stupid.
But, yes, they do have the right to do whatever they want. They can ban their critics all they want and censor whatever debate they like . But just because they can, does it mean they should? This is a site that relies 100% on the users, and they can't simultaneously censor speech and expect a healthy and lively community. I want an online community where I can say what I like without fear of reprisal from the powers that be, don't you? - diggEntertainer, on 10/12/2007, -39/+49In other news, the last batch of intelligent Digg users has moved to Reddit:
http://reddit.com/info/1mpwr/comments
Digggers have lost the right to poke fun at MySpace users, because now they've proved that most of them are 12-year old kids. Digg me down for telling the truth. - t0ny, on 10/12/2007, -1/+11If you stopped using digg then why are you still here?
- mythandros, on 10/12/2007, -4/+13@sjbdallas
So you're saying that we shouldn't fight for our rights because someone might get hurt? - cimbo19, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10How do you win a war between HD-DVD and Blu-Ray? You leak the encryption code so the numerous users who "backup" movies are more prone to use the Technology. Nice move Toshiba.
- maffiou, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10It's funny to see how much coverage this event has generated...
Even mainstream media in France have reported it:
http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-651865,36-904601,0.html?xtor=RSS-3208
Maybe it's more significant than we think ? - eighties, on 10/12/2007, -6/+13"We hear you, and effective immediately we won't delete stories or comments containing the code and will deal with whatever the consequences might be. If we lose, then what the hell, at least we died trying."
These guys are willing to sacrifice a multi-million dollar business which has nearly redefined the way we define 'news aggregation', and is one of the most visited sites on the internet. Ok, so they tried to delete the stories and comments and banned users left and right for no reason. Big deal. You lost your account. These guys stand to lose a lot more.
Moreover, after listening to what everyone was saying and the comments posted, they decided to go with free speech over corporate compliance. I don't know what to say; I'm stunned and in awe at how far they are willing to go to uphold their values. - xtmno3, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12"It helped me realize that, between the endless flame wars, idiotic comments, and "user revolt" (what the *****?), the userbase of this site is a cesspool of filth whose only crutch is internet anonymity."
see:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 - bobothn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7bluray and hddvd use the same encryption if one encryption got broken they both did. unless i am much mistaken. it is probably due to the fact that People on here don't care about blu-ray and all that sony BS
- jmaresca, on 10/12/2007, -2/+9"Digg Punched me in the Face for Posting This."
screenshots or it didnt happen - Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -4/+11@kritenks
why don't you take a second and look at my profile. I've been around a lot longer than this fiasco has been. I've actually been around since the birth of digg(my first account was under another name) and I've always been a big digg supporter. I love this site as much as the next guy.
How about instead of discrediting me based on your flawed assumptions about my name, why don't you ask me where I got it? - BunnieLebowski, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6I love how this forbes guy assumes everyone on here is a man between 20-30 years old
- mythandros, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7@nytechie
Freedom is not free.
My rights may be God given but it's my ass that's going to have to bleed to protect them.
Don't "get used to it". That's exactly what the Incorporated States of America and it's constituent lobbyists want We the People to do: "get used to it." I've got a better idea. How about you grow a spine and take a stand? - UrsusMorologus, on 10/12/2007, -3/+8Reddit is no better IME
- renorydazbp, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think what is most interesting about this is if you participated in the revolt you helped them with a massive amount of publicity. Whether or not they are more or less creditable is irrelevant now; they are far more well known.
- generalloy, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6"If digg really censors things constantly, as you imply, wouldn't you think this would have happened ages ago? What happened yesterday WAS ridiculous, it WAS childish. It was a bunch of immature users that decided to turn on a FREE online service provided to them as a place to gather and aggregate interesting stories. This FREE online service is also provided by a PRIVATELY owned company who can do and say as they please with their properties. If the Digg users that were unhappy with the decisions made by Digg, inc. (which, by the way, were made in order to avoid litigation in order to continue serving the community--remember, Diggs only revenue is ad income, they have no way to monetize as of yet, and so I doubt they're very profitable) they should have stopped visiting the site, and used the free and open source Pligg model to make their own COMPLETELY democratic news aggregation service instead of attempting to destroy this one."
Sorry, but they did censor things because of teh AACSLA as well has the HD DVD sponsorships, but good look finding the articles on here, you'll likely find the "sorry, error" page. Did you know there were TWO stories before Digg went on the deleting, banning rampage? THAT is what triggered all the other posts. It seems like facts are being mixed up by the people who weren't actually here, and unfortunately the pages that show this were deleted. If the HD DVD sponsorship caused that (and I suspect it might have since the keys were posted in FEBRUARY/MARCH), Microsoft or Intel can do exactly the same.
This privately owned company makes money off its users submitting news stories. Digg's whole point is therefore the users.
BTW-- censorship in the form of fear of the DMCA is still censorship, because its power comes from a bad law that the US government made. - markforbrains, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8What on earth would we talk about?
- mythandros, on 10/12/2007, -3/+71) Operating system != shoddy encryption to cirucmvent Fair Use
2) Compare rates of literacy and education for your average 1970s British factory worker with the literacy rate and education level of your average Digg user. Now tell me which "mob" is going to behave more intelligently.
3) Digg isn't a democracy. Ultimate power lies in the hands of an elite few. By definition, if we're going to get political here, Digg is closer to an aristocracy. An aristocracy can choose to not exercise its veto power and still remain an aristocracy. Never forget that.
4) This wasn't a temper tantrum by a small number of digg users. This is 16,000+ digg users upset that Digg wouldn't even accept a link to a story that mentioned that the HD-DVD key had been cracked. Let me repeat that. Digg refused to link to stories that did not contain any trade secrets whatsoever. That sounds like abuse of power to me. - jeebusmang, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Hey it was this business that brought me to Digg. Kudos to the people and (eventually) the management.
- Diggtatorship, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5@kritenks
"Dude" you aren't making any sense. - klpowell, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6I hate to say it but its only censorship if the government is doing it. You have no right to free speech on private property as you have to obey the rules of the property owner. Now i'm not saying I agree with digg. Banning accounts was totally out of line and if they would have simply posted "Please don't post those numbers we are receiving Cease and Desist orders" it would have all been different.
- t0ny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3In some ways your right. There has been times I backed up my dvds. I dont like carrying disks with me that are worth $20 and are very easy to steal. There also been times back when I was in high school I riped a dvd to a video file and played it on my palm pilot, I'm sure a lot of people with ipod videos did the same exact thing. I've even played ( and still do ) dvds in linux! And all of what I said are some sort of no no in the law. And you know what? I dont care! I'm not ripping anybody off. I'm not stealing. I'm just using my content any way I want. DRM will die. Users want freedom to do what they want with their content. DRM will break and when it does all your doing is pissing off your legit users. The pirates will get there way. The only people that will suffer is the legit users.
And lastly my mom rented 4 dvds, 3 of them where made by sony. Only one worked in her old dvd player. Can you guess what brand did not play?
/drm rant - Caffeinate, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3If you lump every single person on the site as a stark raving idiot, what are you doing here? Yes, there are people on this site that are crazy and get worked up over things that make no sense. There are also rational people on the site.
I got dug down for pointing out that name calling isn't adult or polite, or perhaps because I disagreed with someone else. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4[quote]Or you could go outside.[/quote]
Was this comment inspired by Conan O'Brien's tour of ILM yesterday?
If you missed it, he said the same thing to some ILM employees. And also pointed out that the ratio of men to women at ILM is 8000:1. Sounds like Digg, doesn't it?
(DRM bad) -
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