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- iTorrey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+19Just like when people laughed at Echelon and said that people who believed in its existence were tin-foil hat wearing nut cases. Just a few years ago the government comes clean about in on the 5 o'clock news and everyone just accepts it and goes on with their lives.
Is this story true, I have no idea. Just dismissing something by joking about it doesn't do anyone any good. There is a list of things our government has done that is miles long.. things that people can't believe are true but are. Our government has killed soldiers so that they could see how their nerve weapons worked in various scenarios. They have set off nukes and had soldiers stand by and watch to see what would happen with the fallout. Look at the Tuskegee Syphilis Study, look at MKULTRA and Project Paperclip.
Actually a quick search brings up a short list at http://www.umedia.com/MediaMike/GovAtrocities.html
The point is, don't just dismiss something to the realm of 'tin-foil hats'. Most things start that way, and some turn out to be true. And just a question.. where did you get the notion that people who look into government abuses were crazy tin-foil hat wearing alien seeking, big foot watching morons? Oh yes, the media. - iTorrey, on 10/12/2007, -6/+20The problem is that making up a conversation doesn't debunk anything.
- vguard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+13Actually, if it comes from a authoritarian voice, most people will believe just about anything. You may not believe it, now, but if the same information was broadcast on the 5 o'clock news and they had a bunch of "credible" officials saying it was so, most would buy it, hook, line and sinker.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+14"I mean with the Patroit Act, the governemt can pretty much do whatever they want."
And whats more frightening is some people actually believe thats a good thing. Of course these are the same idiots that voted for Bush - jron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9This information came from Robert David Steele, a 20 year Marine Corps infantry and intelligence officer. He is also a former clandestine services case officer with the CIA. Steele said, "Let me say very explicitly - their contact at the CIA is named Dr. Rick Steinheiser, he's in the Office of Research and Development" And just how would Steele know this? Easy, he worked with the guy.
Steele Post:
It would be useful to get specifics on who at Google denied this. I am quite positive that Google is taking money and direction from my old colleague Dr. Rick Steinheiser in the Office of Research and Development at CIA, and that Google has done at least one major prototype effort focused on foreign terrorists which produced largely worthless data.
Hopefully Google learned from Bill Clinton that the denial is often more costly than the deed when it completely undermines one's integrity.
CIA is not very sophisticated. In 1986 they knew the 18 functionalities for an all-source analysis workstation (Google for CATALYST and CIA) and they still don't have it. CIA is a kludge of contractor-provided stovepipes, none of which play well together.
I like Google. I think they have enormous potential. I think they are seriously stupid to be playing with CIA, which cannot keep a secret and is more likely to waste time and money than actually produce anything useful.
Best wishes to all, Robert Steele Posted by: Robert David Steele, November 9, 2006 03:17 PM - jron, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10@AndreaMessenger
It is more amazing to me that people will believe a Google PR person over a former CIA agent. =) - JimMessenger, on 10/12/2007, -5/+12"PR person: I see your point. Hey, speaking of the assassination of John F Kennedy in 1963, did Google have anything to do with that?
Co-founder: (The random co-founder stops in his tracks and stares at the PR person). What the hell? Google was founded in 1998! How could we have anything to do with the Kennedy assassination?
PR person: 1963 to 1998 is 35 years. 35 is a round number. Some people have been asking."
A very good laugh. - NoSlack913, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8HAHAHA. What is really funny, is that when I follow all of these threads, you fan boys still don't actually see the REAL connection between Google and the CIA/NSA. Without boring you, check out www.in-q-tel.org This is the commercial venture funding arm of the CIA/NSA/FBI, and yes they have funded several companies that Google partners with, as well as buying a few of them (Keyhole=>Google Earth) (@Last) etc... Now you say, those are harmless mapping companies... well check out the other companies in the in-q-tel portfolio and some will scare the be-jebus out of you, check out CallMiner and AgentLogic and Palantir
Enjoy - iTorrey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Yes just ask Icke who is at best a bit loopy and at worst a government plant to subvert truth movements. Anyone who asks questions now is just labeled a reptilian fearing, tin-foil hat wearing nut.
Convenient isn't it? Odd that more people know the terms "Tin-Foil hat wearer", "Black Helicopters" and "Reptilian" than know "Operation Mockingbird" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mockingbird or "Operation Ajax" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax or "REX84" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rex84
Have a good laugh now and then go read up on exactly what our Government will do. - iTorrey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Matt, I understand the contents of your story. I don't know that I believe that google is in bed with the CIA either. I have no problems with the content of your story, it is actually pretty funny.
My problem is just that people are very quick to dismiss and make fun of things which they for whatever reason think "Our government wouldn't do that. You'd have to be crazy to think they would". You said in your story that you were debunking it. You said "Dax says that I should debunk using rap, but I lack the hipness, Dax-dawg. So I’m going with a fictional dialogue." however, you can't debunk something by writing a fictional conversation.
Let me show you what I mean...
"Debunking the Gulf of Tonkin
My friend Tom said I should debunk the Gulf of Tonkin conspiracy theory using polka music, however I lack his mad polka skills so I will do it with a fictional dialog.
White House Aide: There are reports that the gulf of tonkin incident was fabricated to get us into war in Vietnam. Is it true?
Nixon: Of course not!"
There you have it.. I have debunked the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Although I didn't actually prove anything one way or another.. just restated what each side said.
A former CIA agent says google is in bed with the Government. And google responds with "The statements related to Google are completely untrue.". Wow that is some serious debunking.
So now that there is an official debunking.. everyone.. go back to sleep. move along here... don't ask any more questions. Go back to sleep.
Is that how free people stay free? It's not like the accuser is just joe blogger with an idea for a grand conspiracy theory. Why do we just ignore him outright? This is just like what happened when the Patriot Act was passed and the NeoCons sat there saying that it didn't violate anyones liberty and Ashcroft said that it was just "phantoms of lost liberty" when in reality Section 802 pretty well violates everyones liberty. But again, we are told to shut up and go back to sleep. - Nordiskt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7Oh, it might be useful to know that the poster of this blog, Matt Cutts, might have a reason to ridicule any allegations against Google. He's been a software engineer at Google since January 2000.
Hmmmmmm......
Also, Matt, Daniel Brandt's website google-watch.org does not say you have top-clearance at NSA. It says had, past-tense:
"Matt Cutts, a software engineer at Google since January 2000, used to work for the National Security Agency and had a top-secret clearance. Google would like to hire more like him." http://www.google-watch.org/jobad.html - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Seriously folks, digg down if you want but to think that an intelligence agency is not tapping these sources that would be mindboggling stupid. Of course it should be disclosed but really though people should know this by now. Teh telephone systems are all ran by Amdocs an Israeli company that can tap any phone, look it up. Look at ATS its a new tracking system that gives you terrorism points. Its mainly about marketing but if you think that the CIA is not looking at google as well then you just can't handle the truth.
- jron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+7It also helps to know what Rick does for the CIA =)
http://www.cs.uvm.edu/~xwu/icdm/panel-03.shtml
Real time data mining. - iTorrey, on 10/12/2007, -2/+7Using the Left/Right paradigm to sell the people on Government incompetence is what destroyed this country. Yes, at a lot of levels our government is incompetent but at the top I have a hard to buying it.
It's odd that talk radio has it all figured out and yet our government is just too stupid to get it. Don't you think? Is it not possible that their real agenda is not what it seems? They claim to be for immigration control and yet sign us up to be merged with Canada and Mexico in a North American Union using the Amero as our currency. Go read up on the NAU and Amero and the NAFTA super highway.
They claim to be pro-gun but support the assault weapons ban. They claim they don't torture. They claim 'gitmo' is a vacation resort. They claim they are for freedom but pass laws to strip us of those very freedoms. They go to Free Speech award ceremonies and talk about doing away with free speech. They claim a lot of things... it's called doublespeak and doublethink. They say things which are false and that are polar opposites but the cheerleaders for their party eat it up.
If you look at things as presented it does look like our government is incompetent and stupid. If you look at things as if they are trying to destroy this nation from the inside and setup an all out tyrannical police state, the fake debate between 'left' and 'right' and the 'stupidity' starts to actually make a lot more sense.
Tyranny doesn't end at the border. There isn't anything magical about America. There is tyranny around the world, and those people are no different than us. Throughout the history of man, men have sought to oppress others and take complete control. Terror is a great pretext for that.
I leave you with the words for Herman Goring
"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. ...Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I for one welcome our CIA Overlords... If they liked Iraq, they're going to love over-lording the US where guns outnumber people.
- Nordiskt, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5It is precisely this kind of joking attitude encourages ignorance... While I do not think Google is "in bed" with the CIA, I do think it stores an alarming amount of information that can and will be used against people the government finds a "special interest": i.e. people with their own ideas that question the infrastructure of our society, questions the information they are given, questions the powers that be.
If you think Google cares more about indivual rights than upholding & furthering its own economic agenda... you're in for a rude awakening.
There are people that don't want certain questions asked, and google is part of that machine that keeps certain information floating on the top... and other information buried.
Google, "don't be evil". - Homunculiheaded, on 10/12/2007, -2/+6While I certainly don't think that Google and CIA/NSA are 'in bed together' it's clear that there are large benefits for both sides to be working together. What is Google's number 1 function? To gather information (not just about users, but about also about the web). How does google profit from this information, well one obvious way is advertising, but it's unwise for any organization to put all there eggs in one basket.
Also consider that that value of open source intelligence is very a hot topic in the intelligence community (for years os intell was not very useful but recently has become a much more useful/interesting topic).
The type of information that google gathers is, generally speaking, open source. The NSA/CIA and other intelligence agency are very interested in the type of work so I think it's naive to think that CIA and Google will never cross paths. I can certainly see a future where Google is awarded several government contracts working with the intelligence community.
However to think that Google is just some puppet of the CIA or any things similar is overly paranoid. - JonForTheWin, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Nothing like a good fictional story to debunk an ex-CIA operatives testimony.
- vguard, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Given all the incredible things that have happened in the last few years, the CIA/NSA and Google being in bed together doesn't sound unreasonable or crazy. If you wanted to generate psychological profiles on everyone, this would certainly be away to do it. It's certainly technically feasible. So, let's see, you have both a means and a motive... the last element would be the will to do it. So the question you need to ask is would the government spy on it's citizens? Or a better question, when has there been a government that wasn't willing to spy on it's citizens?
- jron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4@MattCutts, thanks for clearing that up; however, let's not get side tracked from the core argument: Google has worked with Dr. Rick Steinheiser of CIA.
- ArcticCelt, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6In bed? Naaaaa, its more like a quickie in a public restroom, hoping nobody noticed.
- drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Google and the CIA are not really "in bed" they are just getting quickies on the side when noone is looking.
Let's see, intelligence agency needs data and information for actionable intel. Google collects information. hrm. - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Thanks Eric Wilson, well I bet you have looked into 911 in depth. Nothing to see here move along and take your blue pill, this telescreen and this comfy couch, let us tell you what we want you to do.
"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." -- neech - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-13.htm
- Anchoret, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Incredibly stupid article which debunks absolutely nothing.
Try TIA instead of CIA. - jron, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3@iTorrey: Nah, that is all a lie... I'm going to watch some more TRL now.
- drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -3/+5mommy mommy I can't listen it hurts my brain
- Eyeooga, on 10/12/2007, -5/+7This is complete and utter bunk. Everyone knows that Google is actually controlled by the 4th dimensional reptiles, just ask david icke.
- drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2If you ran an intelligence agency would you add Google to your metadata about individuals? THey also are one of the biggest market valued companies next to Microsoft now, you think MS cut any deals with the Justice Department? At a point you get so big and so much money and information that you can't help but cross paths with government agencies.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"The Fed only wishes that it had its ***** together well enough to control anything."
It's not the CIA that's the problem. It's the cabals within the CIA. They operate the same as the cabals within the rest of the government.
They skim off the budgets, run illegal operations for profit, and a few things you probably would say is just fiction from a bad movie plot. I'm not going to go into it because you obviously have no idea. Go read some books. Or use the CIA's favorite search engine to dig up some info.
CIA agents have repeatedly been convicted of smuggling drugs, weapons and running prostitution rings. And that's just their unsanctioned activities, there's also the death squads, regime changes, and torture. Google it. - Chmarr, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Okay, that wasn't a "debunking" so much as a "ridiculing" :)
Remember... if you don't want to deny it - which might be lying - ridicule it instead :) - AndreaMessenger, on 10/12/2007, -8/+9Very funny. It's amazing what some people will believe -- no wonder the tabloids are still in business.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Google is in bed with anyone with $$$.
Who's to say that one of those advertisers, sponsors, affiliates or their associates is not a front for the CIA? Whether Google knows it or not. The question should be: does Google give out data to ANYONE?
Don't be surprised when Google data eventually does turn up in goverment DBs. - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -4/+5Actaully I heard it was the NSA, makes sense, the 2 of them fighting for the crown of the largest database in the world.
- OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1MattCutts works for the KGB.
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'd bet good money the CIA and/or NSA are monitoring Google searches. If google knows this or not is another issue entirely, but the CIA/NSA would be outright negligent if they aren't tappin in.
Or possibly the UK secret service does it for them - they've got blanket permission to monitor any site they want. - OBKenobi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Yeah, it's all fun and games until some CIA private military contractor with no accountability cattle-prods your ass.
Happens in Iraq every day. - MattCutts, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3@Chmarr, Google did deny it officially as well: http://battellemedia.com/archives/003051.php has an official denial from a Google spokesperson.
@Nordiskt, anyone in the search industry knows I work for Google, but it's my personal blog. Daniel Brandt changed his statement from present tense to past tense after I specifically asked him to. Here's an except from the interview last year at http://blog.outer-court.com/archive/2005-11-17-n52.html where I asked him to:
"
Q: Daniel Brandt of Google-Watch.org claims you worked for the NSA before, and that you have “a top-secret clearance.” Any comments on him and his statements?
A: I have mixed feelings about Daniel Brandt. I disagree with a great deal of what he says and how he says it. For example, his theory that Google’s index size was limited by 4 byte docids was just 100% wrong. I also think the little graphics on google-watch.org do more harm than good to the site’s credibility. This one is my favorite (Google as puppeteer pulling the strings on a reporter).
But you’re probably more curious about whether I, Matt Cutts, am a secret connection between Google and the Military-Industrial Complex, the Illuminati, or any other shadow government and their black helicopters. And the answer is no. :) The University of Kentucky offers college students a co-operative education program where you alternate between working for a semester and studying for a semester. Students can work at places from Kodak to Lexmark to NASA to the Department of Defense. I decided to co-op at the DoD because I wanted to get some real-world experience and I wanted a job at an interesting place. For a young college student, co-operative education shows you what to expect after you graduate, and it was useful for me to see the good (and the bad) of a real workplace.
I doubt that I left much of a lasting impact on the DoD, and in turn I don’t believe that they implanted me with any mind-control chips that would allow them near Google’s servers. :) I believe whatever security clearance I had lapsed years ago. Thanks for asking and giving me the chance to clear that up. Daniel Brandt, if you happen to read this, would you mind updating your “Spooks on board at Google” page to note that I do not have a security clearance? Thanks!
" - TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I can listen. I just get dumber every time I hear that. They are on a whole new level, right beyond the people that believe we were never on the moon. Besides, there is as much evidence for this as there is for a lot on the conspiracy theories that surround 9/11. And yes, I watched all of those useless videos that try to justify their statements
Eric Wilson - cybersphere, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2Do you really believe Matt Cutts knows everything about Google?
Also, if this was true, do you think anyone at Google would admit to it? - MattCutts, on 10/12/2007, -6/+6iTorrey, I wrote this story. The point is that Google has issued an *official* statement saying that the Google-CIA rumor is completely untrue. See the second paragraph of my story, or see http://battellemedia.com/archives/003051.php for Google's official denial of any CIA connection.
The dialogue is just me imagining the poor Googler working to be 100% sure. - Farticus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The CIA story came out of China, and you know why they want to scare people away from Google. Always ask yourself, "Who will benefit from such a rumor?".
Then there is this logic; if the CIA had the brain power of the people at Google, they would be doing a better job than they are.
:-) - EliseWright, on 10/12/2007, -5/+4Hilarious! I can just imagine the two of them walking swiftly through the hallways, the "random co-founder" half listening. Something tells me he tuned right into the conversation when he heard where the conversation was going!
- jron, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@MattCutts: I should have also added that while I know your company has CIA ties, does this flame war limit my chances of becoming the Google lifeguard? IM me on Google Talk with your reply. ...or just use your NSA connections to root my box; i will expect your answer in /home/jron/google.lifeguard.yes.no.maybe
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -6/+5It is a core belief of the tin-hat community that the CIA is controlling everything.
Truthfull, the US gov't is so dysfuntional that it can barely manage to deliver the mail. The Fed only wishes that it had its ***** together well enough to control anything. - TKDWILSON, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2Whoops, I accidentally dropped a list of 40,000 email addresses.
Whoops, I accidentally dropped a nickel for each one.
Eric Wilson - kman004, on 10/12/2007, -7/+4It could be true. Wouldn't suprise me if they did have connections with this government. I mean with the Patroit Act, the governemt can pretty much do whatever they want.
- chesterjosiah, on 10/12/2007, -6/+3Matt Cutts for president. Of the universe.
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