What is Digg?42 Comments
- scrubadub, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10"The Galileo system processes information about the physical world and it provides information"
Kinda, although it's more like a precise clock, it tells you what time it is and YOUR device processes the information. Your GPS device does not communicate back to the sat (in the US system) so I doubt they are forcing any resources to be taken up on the sat. Where as with a camera on a sat, it can only take a picture of a specific place, and its resources are tied up there. - tychop, on 10/12/2007, -2/+10Off topic: Spelling error's aren't the end of the world.
- szelij, on 10/12/2007, -1/+9The sheer geekiness of this makes me flutter in excitement...
- petzlux, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Nothing happens, Giove-A anyway is only a testbed for the development and testing of the final Galileo System, and the codes were bound to be published anyway at some point. The Final Galileo system will have several level of services, from a free basic service, to QOS assured service levels to government (police, military ) grade encrypted services (the discovered codes are not connected to this service). Accuracy in principle will be similar to GPS, but as receivers will be able to process both GPS and Galileo signals, this will result in much better reception even in urban canyon /inside buildings.
- nuclearpenguins, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Try using the reply feature next time. Lrn2Digg.
- nanito, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5On a side note (quoting):
"Apparently they were trying to make money on the open source code."
I mean, it's just me, or this guy hasn't any clue about what he is talking about? *knock* *knock* of course anybody can make money on Open Source code, ask RedHat ;-) - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I don't usually lead people to wiki pages, but for this one they're dead on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gps
Nice to do the impossible sometimes, isn't it Deuterium? Operating at the sheer theoretical edge of what the system is capable of?
Why do you think it's 3m accurate anyway? Have you tested it somewhere marked down to the centi arc-second? - lbrtuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"...The Galileo system processes information about the physical world..."
No it doesn't. If you say it does, you'd have to argue that a lighthouse does too.
"...How's an imaging satellite different from a navigation satellite?"
Massively.
The lighthouse analogy is actually very good. That's how GPS satellites work. They are not taking any photographs - they're hardly even measuring data. A satellite just sends out a very accurate time signal and GPS units use several satellites to infer where on the planet you are. Time is not copyrightable.
Photographs are copyrightable. Reality (data about the physical world) is not copyrightable. This incidentally is why maps have to put easter eggs in. The map itself (the actual positional information) is not copyrightable, but the easter egg (the "figment of the cartographer's imagination") is. So if you inadvertently copy the easter egg, you're infringing copyright. - MarkByers, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5I read (some of) the article. I don't get it. What does this mean?
Will Galileo be scrapped?
Will the next version have better security?
Will everyone be able to get GPS accuracy to the inch for free?
And if we do, will we all be put in prison under DMCA like laws?
Please explain! - scrubadub, on 10/12/2007, -4/+7remember kids use /dev/random not /dev/urandom...
yeah probably over a few heads - RichGC, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I assume no consumer devices have been made that use these codes yet,
So am wondering, will they remotely re-program the satalites to use a more secure code system ? - KenG6, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3For those like me whose heads it was over... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urandom
- ArcticCelt, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4"For crying out loud, what kind of argument is "Can the owner charge me a licensing fee for looking at the light [of a lighthouse]?"
Yeah I have the same reaction.
Saying that there is not ethical dilemma in cracking a radio signal then freeloading on someone else system and then finally making that weak analogy of the lighthouse is very simplistic and not very honest I think. If that encrypted radio signal is like a lighthouse then what about commercial radio? Do this means that its ok to get the music I get from that lighthouse and sell it back?
Of course not because there's some laws to prevent it and the only reason he can probably get away with it is because there is presently no legislation about that situation. Still, I think the situation is not very fair and those guys are just a bunch of hypocrite freeloaders. - nanito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3This kind of reports are excellent to argue against any authority trying to make me desist from buying/downloading cracked commercial software. Thank you and keep posting this evidence! ;-)
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2This really shouldn't be taken advantage of. This system represents a MASSVE financial endevour and should not be freeloaded. I hope this doesn't go any further
- splasho, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Digg won't let me type it in, read up on the free accuracy here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_positioning_system
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Why did they do that ? Sad.
- nanito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3Here's a shorter version of the URL: http://tinyurl.com/z78ea
- lbrtuk, on 10/12/2007, -1/+3"maybe the people that have been prosecuted for stealing directTV signals should get the lawyer that the school uses, is it any different really?"
Hugely. That radio time signal that your fancy watch syncs to. Should that be copyrightable? Reality is not copyrightable. Creative content (television shows) is.
Assuming you guys are all engineers, I'm depressed at how little you seem to know about the copyright system and what it's for. Please don't assume everything's copyrightable and copyrighted as though it's a fundamental right. This is how DRM happens. - petzlux, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The time analogy is not completely correct, as it is a huge over simplification to say that receivers can directly measure the time difference from their watch and the time signal of the gps satellite. As it would be technically not possible to integrate the same precision clocks of the satellites in the receivers, and syncronise them, the receiver cant directly tell the time difference merely by comparing signal runtime with its own clock time.
The pseudocode thus allow the receiver to have a rough idea of the travel time of the signal, with the remaining uncertainty then folded into the algorithm as another variable, DeltaT . thus to resolve the position the receiver needs to solve 4 unknowns eg XYZ and DeltaT instead of theoretically only the position XYZ . Thats also why a GPS receiver needs to have a lock on 4 satellites to get a 3D position (each unknown needs at least one signal to be resolved basically). The more satellites in view, the more accurate the algorithm can then resolve the position and DeltaT.
Thus the PseudoCode needs to be known by the receiver otherwhise the receiver wouldnt work. Thats why i think this wasnt such a huge crack as the pseudocode is not designed to be hard to crack. - nanito, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3This claim is the most ridiculous (quoting):
"The Europeans cannot copyright basic data about the physical world, even if the data are coming from a satellite that they built."
Oh, really? But the Americans can?
How about the United States Patent No. 6,754,472 "Method and apparatus for transmitting power and data using the human body" granted to Bill Gates?
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r=1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6754472.PN.&OS=PN/6754472&RS=PN/6754472
How hypocrites and liars some americans are... - carpespasm, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2well, using a complex but possibly breakable design and claiming it won't be broken is a misguided idea to begin with. Doubly so when there's something to be gained from it like to the inch GPS data, or a high mark on a research paper, or both.
- qwertydvorak, on 10/12/2007, -2/+3Afraid that cracking the code might have been copyright infringement, Psiaki's group consulted with Cornell's university counsel. "We were told that cracking the encryption of creative content, like music or a movie, is illegal, but the encryption used by a navigation signal is fair game," said Psiaki. The upshot: The Europeans cannot copyright basic data about the physical world, even if the data are coming from a satellite that they built.
"Imagine someone builds a lighthouse," argued Psiaki. "And I've gone by and see how often the light flashes and measured where the coordinates are. Can the owner charge me a licensing fee for looking at the light? … No. How is looking at the Galileo satellite any different?"
--maybe the people that have been prosecuted for stealing directTV signals should get the lawyer that the school uses, is it any different really ? - nanito, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2the human body is part of the physical world, the time is not, what is the part you don't understand, you sad full of hate ape.
- jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Depends what you're talking about.
1993 Worldwide ~100m free service
2000 Worldwide ~20m free service
It still gets much better than this though :-) - jmn2k1, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Maybe he means that they charge for the codes and try to avoid the redistribution...
- jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1How retarded are you? The current time isn't a physical constant? That's like trying to copyright a map you *****.
Maybe you're just some angsty teen that got a hardon because G. was listed in the patent, I don't know. - jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Well, I was taking about the DOD GPS sats not the European ones. You could have a working civilian GPS receiver since the early 90s, it was just a pretty wide range. Currently using the DOD sats, a civilian GPS receiver can get down to 20m. This is still not the maximum location resolution possible with the satellites. Full operational use has still not been made public from the satellites, which is rated at down to a meter. I mean, currently most companies have released software ***** and other stop gaps like WAAS that narrows the range down to a few meters *SOMETIMES*, but you're guaranteed ~20m accuracy time wise off the purely civilian signal.
- nanito, on 10/12/2007, -2/+2I disagree. Following that logic somebody could say "Claiming that you've broken somebody's GPS code is a misguided idea to begin with, given than you have not a much better GPS system, neither to try to finally catch Osama or to guide your missiles a bit better and therefore minimize the civilian casualties in armed conflicts."
- nanito, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2LOL, i agree!, i mean, what's that bizarre/inconsistent analogy? Maybe the guy liked poetry but... well ended studying system engineering because it pays better ;)
- nevbear666, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0@wakaziva
cause they could
nr1 reason for most ppls to do things...
and no, i am not going into explaining that security by obscurity doesnt work. - splasho, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1What do you mean much better?
Wikpedia on the free versioni: " - jmn2k1, on 10/12/2007, -3/+2They government pay to make the system... so, they think they can used it...
It could be a lot of things... but no "sad"... - nevbear666, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1i dont remember the documentary title, but ive seen a documentation once bout an aussie hacker in the 80's, who had exactly that target
"once we'll hack sattelites"
or what was that newspaper on the wall, he had at his room... - thatha, on 10/12/2007, -10/+9For crying out loud, what kind of argument is "Can the owner charge me a licensing fee for looking at the light [of a lighthouse]? … No. How is looking at the Galileo satellite any different?"
The Galileo system processes information about the physical world and it provides information---the exact same way US imaging satellites capture images of the physical world and then charge people absurd amounts of money to distribute them. How's an imaging satellite different from a navigation satellite?
The whole article seems to be about those Europeans being stupid and how we should all hail the Americans. Jeez. - Deuterium, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1My Garmin gets to 3 meters pretty consistently without the WAAS feature turned on. I believe they improved the signal since 2000.
- jasqwerty, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1What the hell does that patent have to do with anything related to what is essentially a giant accurate clock. You do realize that's all the GPS system is?
The Europeans have tried to copyright WHAT TIME IT IS.
But whatever, hate on you ignorant piece of crap. - splasho, on 10/12/2007, -4/+2Don't forget that America did this too until 2000
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+0Cornell? Where is this exactly?
- pennyfx, on 10/12/2007, -13/+8oh well. ethicalhacker, you had a spelling error in the title of your submission.. Maybe try using the spell check next time.
- Emoter, on 10/12/2007, -5/+0Opps... Miss post.
- ethicalhacker, on 10/12/2007, -25/+2Duplicate: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/July06/GPS.code.cracked.TO.html, http://digg.com/tech_news/Secret_European_GPS_Codes_Crakced_By_US_Researchers
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