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146 Comments
- wilf_brim, on 10/12/2007, -0/+27I tend to agree with you, but another part of the problem is that TFM sometimes really sucks monkey balls, if it exists at all. I just got a new HDD based audio player. The manual was short, and only went into basic operation. Everything else, like updating the firmware, moving pictures onto the unit, and other advanced features, were all not documented. I either had to figure them out for myself, or go to an independent (i.e. not run by the manufacturer) forum and check the FAQs.
Now, most of the readers of Digg would know to do that stuff. However, given that we are in the top 3 percentile of geekdom, most normal people don't. A manual should be complete, well written, and clear. And it should exist. For example, my current cell phone came with no manual at all. - Rice, on 10/12/2007, -3/+22This story is way too complex for me.
- dggeek, on 10/12/2007, -7/+23In other news, half of all people that return electronics don't RTFM.
- dopefish, on 10/12/2007, -1/+16I am going to agree here too. I work in the Technical Services department of a HUGE chain of Australian retailers, and I can easily advise that more than half of returns are due to users not just reading the manual that came with thei devices/software. It creates more work for everyone than actually getting return authorities for faulty goods, as you now need to repackage your product and try and make it resaleable again.
And of course, there are always the people who buy something, have it for less than a day, manage to scratch the hell out of it and want to return it because they can't figure it out.
(On a side note, 80% of the "faulty / warranty related" work we do on customer's computers is spyware and virus related. And it does not matter how much you inform the customer of the risks, that machine will be back with us within a couple of months). - cmiller1, on 10/12/2007, -2/+16I say if you can't design a product simple enough for the target market to use then people should return it! People complain that the popularity of Apple's iPod is all about style and fashion and that other MP3 players are much better, well this is the reason the iPod is so popular, companies need to learn to design usable products. I wouldn't drive a car that got 400 MPG and went from 0 to 60 in .3 seconds if to control it I had to use a system of 57 assorted levers and buttons, would you?
- jamesey, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12I think is proven when people pay $100 to have spyware removed by geeksquad.
- brucer69, on 10/12/2007, -1/+12This is totaly true, i work at an unnamed electronics store and half of the people returning stuff just cant figure it out. Makes me wonder what the hell people are thinking. A guy last week purchased a computer only to return it saying "It gets to the choose a user page and just sits there". I asked if he chose a user to which he said " yes but then i just get that screen with the grass hills and clouds and thats all it does." i just shook my head.
- scuba7183, on 10/12/2007, -7/+18basically, many people are mildly retarded.
- tehJR, on 10/12/2007, -2/+12lol "a scientist said"
Jimmy: Uhh, Mr. McClure? I have a crazy friend who says its wrong
to eat meat. Is he crazy?
Troy: Nooo, just ignorant. You see your crazy friend never heard
of "The Food Chain". Just ask this scientician.
Scientician: (Looking up from a microscope) Uhhh... - inactive, on 10/12/2007, -3/+13Complexity is different for every person, some people find it complex to set a vcr clock
- felchdonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The ironic thing is, you're probably talking about the users being stupid. I agree that better education would help, because it would lead to better products.
The average consumer isn't necessarily stupid, they just aren't willing to put the time in to "learn" a new product. And why should they? It's all about investment vs. return. Why should I invest my time to learn all the buttons and geegaws on a product that I only wanted to do something simple on, such as listening to music?
I understand the argument that some things require training - cars are a good example. Most products aren't at that level, though. I don't need to learn much to use a toaster, or an '80s-era Walkman, or a '70s television. A couple buttons, you're done.
If you're asking people to read manuals and learn new techniques, there had better be a payoff at the end - and being able to make a phone call really isn't worth a 30-page manual.
If we turned out more UI designers and HCI experts, as well as executives that understood the value of usability, our economy as a whole would benefit. So, yes, I agree, we need better education. But it's not for the consumers. - djnkpete, on 10/12/2007, -1/+10Someone try reading The Inmates are Running the Asylum, by alan cooper. It makes the case that products with too many features, and badly designed interfaces are the problem, not the stupid consumer.
No one who washes cars or digs ditches should be expected to 'learn' an overcomplicated interface to set their VCR clock, and we shouldn't congratulate ourselves for overcoming terribly usability just because we're geeks who pride ourselves on knowing useless arcane crap.
We should vote with our dollars to buy things that do what we want easily. On the other hand, the classic iPod example also saddles you with DRM - so you have to choose the lesser of two evils in that case. Support money grubbing record company plans for world domination, or buy an MP3 player with a shoddy interface. You decide. - fac3less, on 10/12/2007, -0/+9The funny thing is half of you in this thread would be outsmarted by them when they pull out something that isn't tech. related. ;)
Each person has their forte: Not everyone is computer savvy and it's not entirely just to deem them 'mildly retarded' solely because they grew up in a different era.
Let's take one of my random family members for example: They could tell you everything having to do with the biology and the human body but having them send an e-mail? Ha!
Yet I'm in awe when I hang out with them. - BritOverseas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I constantly "preach" the Geek. I always show my less geekier friends/relatives new and better (for the most part) ways of doing things with their technology etc. I am an avid reader and forum lurker/commenter and I am hopefully "up" on what is going on even though I am "elder" geek. All in all, it amazes me exactly how far behind the pace of technology most people are.
For example, another engineer I am working with at the moment still listens to CD's on his laptop. When I asked him why he didn't just rip them to his drive and then not have to carry the CD's around with him, he said, "well I don't want to have to carry one of them iPod thingies around with me". Now, this man is an Instrument Engineer, granted he is 50, but, he works with very advanced, multi million dollar control systems and computers all the time, but, you have to ask yourself, surely most people know that you don't have to have an iPod to play music electronically, right? - stealthboy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7Well, remember that 50% of the entire population has a below-average intelligence. I think I see a correlation here...
- geminitojanus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+7I'd try my damnest personally. 400MPG would be an incredible coup for the industry, but I'd be a bit more frightful with the accelleration.
But that's the thing a lot of companies bank on; I'm a geek and love a challenge as long as it isn't too difficult (I can fly a plane, which arguably has dozens different possible controls, of which about 10 are critical), but a consumer looking to buy a music player wants the simplicty of a CD player; stop, play, next track, previous track, etc. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to design an interface around these concepts, but it does take a design engineer to make an interface that's elegant and Just Works (tm).
I can see a lot of users being upset when you buy something, take it out of the box and it has more buttons than your QWERTY keyboard. I can also understand users being upset by not being able to navigate menus on impossibly small screens with buttons that aren't clearly labled in the action they perform. And both of these things can be avoided by simply taking the time to lay everything out and say "look, this is where the design is ineffecient, let's fix it". And when a company does that, the finish product shows it. - thashiz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8I'll testify to that. I work at an electronics store, and about 90% of the time someone claims something is defective I can take it out and prove otherwise in a matter of minutes. Although, they always seem to have an assload of other excuses in their back pocket, such as finding a generic one at Wal*Mart for $5 cheaper..
- jwalk81980, on 10/12/2007, -1/+8Go work in retail for one week. You'll see the number is closer to 95%.
- Fenster, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Trust me we need the dumb people as much they need us.....one of my favorite quotes from Caddy Shack....."Well the world needs ditch diggers too." Just think about it an let that really set in.....just let 'em be.
- klamathvx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6Reminds me of when someone returned a wireless network card to my store because they were unable to get a signal with their notebook when they left their home. Keeping a straight face was definitely the hardest part.
- dclowd9901, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5It's true though. We laugh, but the rest of the world is being left behind. People feel like they can't take time to learn technology, or feel like it would be pointless to learn, because the media has them believe everything they'll learn will be obsolete in minutes.
I think, as geeks, it is our duty to not only help our uneducated brethren with their computer problems or tech problems, but also to show them how to diagnose the problems.
As the old saying goes, you can give a man a fish, and feed him for a day, or you can teach a man to fish and feed him for life. - tciny, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Most of the comments here state that its the users fault because they dont RTFM, yet the vast majority of electronics out there are designed by engineers who hardly have any idea of what an intuitive interface looks like.
Just compare the Windows Media Center remote to the Apple Remote for Front Row. I wouldnt blame anyone for returning his WMC because of the complexity... why should you have to spend an afternoon reading a manual when theres solutions out there that are so simple that you dont have to? - jakeg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5I'd imagine many people claim they are returning items claiming they are defective when they really just changed their mind and don't want it for whatever reason...
- theantidote, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Hell I can't even get those damn plastic packages open half the time!
- Jams, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Hehe. I received a spam mail like that once "50% of all men have a less than average penis size"
- CorpT, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5You realize that every time you blogwhore your site you get rated down and no one can read it, right? Surely you've figured that out by now.
- theholycow, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5"a scientist said on Monday"...I thought this was painfully and conspicuously obvious to _everybody_. I would never expect to need a scientist to tell me this. You don't need to ask somebody who astutely observes consumers; you don't need to ask a Wal Mart CSR; you don't even need to ask a geek...all of them can tell you, but so can any random consumer, since those are the people who return stuff because of complexity.
This is, in fact, why I shop clearance and outlet sections for returned merchandise. I get stuff at a fraction of the sale price that has nothing wrong with it. - ZombieLordzero, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4bad manuals + impatient people = returned products
is anyone realy that surprized? - HeyArnold, on 10/12/2007, -1/+5Lmao! We'll call this 20% poor design, and 80% ppl not R'ing TFM/Using common sence. Create a device an idoit can use, and they will create dumber people. BTW, i work for an ISP.
- PineAndoats, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4No big surprise here, when I worked as a tech for Circuit City, most of the returns were for this reason. Even iPods were returned because they were "too confusing"... heh... It amazes me that people wont just take a few minutes to figure something out, you know they have nothing better to do.
- deadbaby, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Feature bloat is definitely to blame here. Too many products take the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach. The masses need devices that do a few specific tasks well.
- ripter, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4You have to charge the batteries :P
- felchdonkey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I think it's amazing how many people here are willing to jump all over consumers, calling them stupid and ignorant, yet fail to notice the irony when their own comments are filled with spelling and grammatical errors that would embarass a fifth-grader...
- epheterson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4I work at Circuit City, a man returned an iPod A/V Cable claiming it wasn't working. The audio was coming through, but not the video. After he returned it, I explained to him that he needed to enable the TV-Out feature on his iPod. He felt shamed.
- saysaknow, on 10/12/2007, -4/+8People seem to be marking your comment accordingly. Looks like we know how to use it.
- GliTCH82, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6Usually older women buy stuff on impulse sometimes, and later find out they don't have a need for it. Rather than divulge this information to some stranger working at customer service, they will usually claim it's defective which is the absolute best reason for which to get a refund.
The premise upon which this study was conducted (complaint reports) is possibly incorrect - mykoleary, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I'd like to have seen a link to this scientist's name and maybe a study. Anyone can say "according to a scientist - " blah blah blah, the Aristocrats!"
It seems obvious, but with cliams this "documented" I want to see the documentation. - diffuze, on 10/12/2007, -3/+6One problem imho is that the manuals (if supplied) are beyond all hope. Often they are translated to your language using translationsoftware. The results can be horrid. That - combined with controls with obscure symbols on them - makes it virtually impossible for the average Joe to operate the gadget it question.
- p1nhead, on 10/12/2007, -2/+5rtfm nub!
The problem is not "complexity" -- it's stupidity. I've met plenty of old people -- doctors, scientists -- who were never previously acquainted with this technology. Hell, my grandfather, who had never touched a computer until about two years ago, picked it up in a few months from reading books. Stupid people will have trouble with complex things; the rest of us will defeat the learning curve. - veritech, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Anyone ever try to sell a Broadband Router? try explaining to computer novice why they might need a ADSL router or a DSL/Cable router.
Blame the industry, why the hell do we need HDMI? when we got DVI and audio in/out? why do we need two types of broadband routers? Why do we need 6 million flash memory formats etc...
I have nothing against folks making money, but it's getting a bit mad now - hitmikey, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3You mean developments in technology and intelligence are not one in the same ? Even a caveman could figure some of this stuff out. What? Oh, we didn't know you guys were still around...
(I strongly agree with the lack of manual content -- e.g. there are times when my boss will come to me and say "how do I take my blackberry out of auto-complete mode" ... after fiddling with it for a while I will regretfully consent the manual only to find it has no such information !!!) - Jams, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Why doesnt it have a name? :P
- Cronus6, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Perhaps he just swapped out the processor/harddrive/video card with older, slower componants for a quick 'free' upgrade. Or just swipped half the system ram. I know several people that do this on a regualar basis.. it's pretty easy to do even with those stupid "removal of this sticker voids your warrenty" stickers. (hell some stores don't even bother to check the stickers)
- exilio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3I see it all the time. I develop UI's for a living and I am astounded at some of the awkward devices out there. And on top-of-the-line, marquee products too. These companies need to stop rolling out devices and spend more time creating workable UI's.
- Beanis, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Many people can't figure out iPods either, but they are willing to give them more time.
I've had to help quite a few people with iPods and iTunes. Multiple iPods, re-encoding music, ripping and burning CD's, encoding videos, transferring files to or from the iPod, and many other things have caused people I know a lot of frustration, and the solutions were rarely simple. A lot of the frustration revolves around DRM, but there are quite a few usability problems too. If people have this much trouble with a "user-friendly" product, why bother with a "complex" product. - jjallday, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Whatever happened to the days when you couldn't figure something out, you left it in a heap in your garage?
- cybortrip, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4I bet these people are still looking for Waldo...
- superkendall, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2I have two stories to confirm the duality of this results.
The first is that about six months after the PS3 launch, I was at different big-box stores (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.) to return some things. Three times in a row there were people ahead of me returning either an XBox or PS2, complaining that they could not hook the video into a VCR. Just think of how many returns the indsutry has generated by building in Macrovision to make recording and hookup trickier than it has to be.
On the other side of the fence, I bought a projector with a really wierd problem. If (and only if) you hooked in a video source with a component cable enabling progressive scan (such as from a DVD player) the projection exhibited a green tinge - stright up interlaced component and other sources were just fine.
Well I spent about fifteen minutes trying to explain to them what the problem was so they would return it as a problem unit and not just resell it to some other poor consumer. However they could not grasp the difference between progressive and interlaced inputs and when they tried to hook it up to a computer there at the counter, it worked fine (of course). So in the end I just took the money (they had to take the return since I had just bought it). and I think they just put it back on the shelf. Thankfully it was a problem not endemic to that projector model as the same projector purchased elsewhere worked just fine. So in that case I seemed to return something that worked properly, but was in fact subtly broken. - tavisjohn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Not always. I have returned things that I still could not get working even AFTER reading the manual, checking the website for new info and updates, AND even calling their tech support! The device seemed to be functional, it just would not do what it was susposed to. (I found out later after a little more internet digging that the device is designed to NOT work with other devices unless they are the same brand name! :( )
- mfalkon, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Wilf Brim, was your cell phone sold brand new? I used to work for one of the largest cell phone providers in the US and every phone we sold from the basic brick to PDA phones came with a manual 2" thick.
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