What is Digg?41 Comments
- smiley2billion, on 10/12/2007, -0/+6If it looked like a Mr. Fusion I'd digg.
- everfalling, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5interesting... well the one good thing about high oil prices is that it forces us to find these alternatives.
- Kraemahz, on 10/12/2007, -1/+6That would be a guarantee for every process: Second Law of Thermodynamics.
- johndi, on 10/12/2007, -0/+5Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune are all estimated to have over 80% hydrogen atmospheres. I'm not saying we'll be building scoops ships to mine this anytime soon, but it is possible. None of the energy sources we use are readily available without some sort of processing or conditioning.
- taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4Wouldn't have to be corn. It could really be adjusted for lots of different ethanol crops!
- Kraemahz, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4As it stands, solar cells are still very inefficient and very expensive. Plants on the the other hand have been evolving for hundreds of millions of years to take the most advantage of the sun as they can. Plus, they don't cost nearly as much to maintain. Why not just use them?
- dlvolk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4This isn't *****. The process runs at about 350°C, which isnt a real high temperature, so it can be run off the waste heat of some other process, like an ICE engine burning H2.
The glycerol (sugar) is a waste byproduct from the production of biodeisal. About 10% ends up as glycerol, so if you are making 1 million gallons of biodeisal, you end up with 100,000 gallons of this glycerol, which the refineries are currently PAYING to get rid of.
Now this process can take it and turn it into something useful: low grade hydrogen, which can be burned in a ICE or purified.
my club at uw madison is working on the process as well, on a smaller scale: www.uwfec.org
however we are using VPR instead of APR as we want to use lower pressures so that we don't get blown up - wisewaif, on 10/12/2007, -6/+9So I assume I can use this hydrogen to power my Wii, correct?
- Atomic1fire, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3why not just use solar cells
the sun is a good resource with a somewhat unlimited suply of energy - TheRappingShoe, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Yes, although only if you're happy with a $1million 2ft square generator that you're happy to feed sugar to all day long :)
- DWatch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Not ***** at all... the '15 times more hydrogen' is referring to the highly reactive catalyst's effect on the sugar as compared to the old catalyst used in steam reforming.
From the article: "Furthermore, the process uses extremely active catalysts, which allow 15 times more hydrogen to be converted per gram of catalyst, compared with steam reforming"
The article goes on to say that you still need to put energy into the system, but far less than steam reforming requires, as well as much lower pressures, therefore, you can make a much smaller, safer hydrogen converter. Perfect for someone who needs portable hydrogen converters (like the military). The article does not say its a cure-all, you still need the sugar, which requires energy to grow and transport in the first place, but at least now you can take the liquid sugar to the place where you need to use hydrogen, you're not stuck at an industrial plant, and forced to transport hydrogen in compressed tanks (much more difficult than transporting sugar).
The British recently developed a submarine that is considered the quietest sub ever, and it achieves this by generating hydrogen when on the surface using is diesel engines, storing the hydrogen in tanks built around the outside surface of the sub, and using he hydrogen in fuel cells once under water and running silent. The only way they have of making more hydrogen is to run their engines while on the surface. Theoretically, this sub could be 100% powered by corn syrup, only using a small amount of reserve battery power to initiate the H2 conversion, once the conversion starts, tapping part of the energy from the fuel cell to keep the conversion process going. The range of the sub would only be limited by the amount of fuel (sugar) they carry. This would not violate the law of thermodynamics, since the energy contained in the sugar is more than enough to keep a conversion going while producing a surplus of hydrogen for the ship's fuel cells. - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Hydrogen is being pushed by the oil cartels because its still 50 years off in infrastructure. Ethanol is here today and car companies are on board. Its already 15% of fuel and part of the infrastructure. Hydrogen would be great BUT its just another delay tactic by the cartels.
Corn although innefficient to grow would benefit from some smart kids who want to build stacked farms, in buildings, imagine that, buildings in IOWA. Yu can also use cellulose, biomass, carbon to create ethanol. Fuel cell tech is here as well but this is again too many years to wait. For now we go flexfuel (ethanol/petroleum) and then phase to the hydrogen and fuel cell cars once that is further researched.
Henry Ford ran teh model t off of ethanol and it was the fuel of the future (25 mpg on model t), well the future is here. - MikeSD34, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2The laws of physics demand this to be true, as anytime you convert energy from one form to another you lose some along the line in one way or another.
The only question is how much, and can it be balanced out by money put in. That's all they really care about, is if they can sell it for enough to pay off the costs of making it and then have money left over to pad their pockets. - phynixx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Corn growing may not be easy NOW. Imagine what would happen to the research into easier/more efficient methods of growing corn if we found that all of a sudden corn was worth 1000 times more than it is now. We haven't developed better growing methods b/c the R&D costs wouldn't be offset by the $$ returned. If this became an energy source on the other hand.... Besides, as is mentioned further down, the US grows more corn than is consumed even now.
- Bluezdood, on 10/12/2007, -2/+4Hehehe, they said biomass.
- JustEvk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Growing corn isn't that easy. You need labor, tractors, pesticide, etc. etc. which all takes energy. It is delicious on the cob, though.
- mrpackrat42, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Dugg because I approve of coming up with a more efficient process for hydrogen production, but I don't think it's going to be practical in it's current form. Corn, as several people have noted here, is just too inefficient a crop. If the process can be adapted to other types of biomass, it might be worth considering. The other problem is, of course, transporting the hydrogen to end users. That's not so much of a problem for the military applications, since the military already has its own transportation infrastructure, but I doubt we'll see it in consumer applications.
- fitchmicah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1haha, what are you talking about, they use a chemical reaction to make the hydrogen. dude, did you read the article?
the real problem with the system is that it produces carbon monoxide!
I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet! - spjmm0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1How about the fact that anything that uses corn syrup will go up astronomically in price. My beloved Coke will be $50 a can!!!!!!!!!!!! hehehehe Just kidding
- thatsiebguy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1And like all other viable alternatives, it will NEVER be adopted for automobiles... "well, its just too expensive for us to convert our supply infrastructure..." sigh
- jdavid, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2one of my friends is an investor in this company, they are working on some hot stuff
- cobweb, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2not to mention the energy required to grow the corn in the first place. It's a hugely inefficient crop.
- DWatch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Pretty much any crop that can create a lot of sugar, like beets, can be used. Knowing your going to use the sugar in a conversion process would free you up to use sugars that are not highly refined and take less effort to grow and harvest.
- fitchmicah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1yea cause like every organism and probably just about any chemical is probably packed with hydrogen!
- DWatch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1taotehue is right. You have to look at what's needed at the point of use. We don't have a wide use of hydrogen for powering anything as far as I know, yet we still need to produce hydrogen, and lots of it, for various reasons (which I'm too lazy to google for right now). So, using this process instead of steam reforming natural gas will work for certain applications much better than converting hydrogen in a centralized location and transporting it around the country in compressed format, which is highly inefficient and dangerous, and is one of the major reasons people think a hydrogen based society wont work.
Imagine a network of gas stations that instead of getting a daily tanker truck full of gas to fill its tanks, it gets tanker trucks of corn syrup, and has a small converter in a back room, generating enough hydrogen for fuel cell cars. I know its a little optimistic thinking on my part, but something better than gas needs to be developed. Using this technique we would nearly stop the release of massive amounts of CO2 and other pollutants into the air, as the CO2 is now a 'closed cycle'. The growing of corn traps CO2, releasing it during the conversion process, so the net output of CO2 ballanced. - taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1all energy is refined in some manner before we use it. What matters is, is it in the form that best be utilized, transported and fit into the infrastructure that we have available.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. It is converted in the sun through fusion into Helium. The second most abundant element in the universe. Hydrogen, however, is also very unstable. That is why fuel cells are so hard to make at an affordable price tag. It takes some expensive stuff to keep the H isolated. (that's simplistic but roughly true)
Finding a way to cheaply turn are energy economic infrastructure into a Hydrogen one is a very noble goal as it would make for the possibility of a very efficient fuel system, and quite possibly the ability to ultimately provide more food to more people by giving them tools that are not reliant on the geo-political structure of Hydrocarbons and fossil fuels - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1NOt really, we have more corn syrup than we can rid of, that is why they lobbied against sugar to get it put in soda. Soda would switch back to sugar if it got too expensive. So you want sugared soda again? Go for Ethanol!
- TheAtomicYak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I'm all for bio-fuels. I think it's about time that farmers started to get paid what they're worth.
- fitchmicah, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1cause they are like 10% efficient...
the real question is, why not use parabolic arrays to collect and concentrate the suns energy? we could boil water like I just did in my backyard two days ago! - cybercerberus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0We already grow far more corn in the USA than we can eat. We pay many farmers a subsidy to let their crop rot in the silos because if all the corn went to market, the price would crash and many farms would have to fold. I say instead of spending money paying farmers to let corn rot, we use the same money to convert that "extra" corn into usable energy.
- cybercerberus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0You don't want that to happen, because the extra farms basically represent a sort of "padding" economically in the event of a disaster or famine that dramatically reduces the production capacity of the industry as a whole. Additionally, you might have an over-closure of farms, such that more closed than actually "should" since it would happen all at once.
- Telebio, on 10/10/2007, -0/+0Use the corn syrup to make soda. Use the soda can ro make hydrogen! Start making hydrogen from Aluminum now! Very easy, and cheap
http://www.instructables.com/id/ECB3EDDF2FRVK4R/ - BloodJunkie, on 10/12/2007, -5/+5I call ***** on this one. The don't even discuss how much energy it takes to make this 15x more hydrogen. Guaranteed: they're spending more energy in the process than they're getting out of it.
- logic, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1But then wouldn't the farms close, and the "extra corn" cease to exist?
- texnumex, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0... possible to convert from one form to another and gain energy. That is how the universe was formed.
Yes, I agree it is possible. If you are GOD! I believe there is something about that in the first law of thermodynamics. It has been a while since I took a physics class but I think it says that matter or energy can niether be created or destroyed. You are welcome to check me on that.
Concerning the whole bio fuel debate, I am all for pursuing every energy source we can come up with. Lets deregulate it as much as we can, (except of course for the Nukes) I think we do need some government control in that area,. If we deregulate the developement of new fuels and energy sources, the collective creative genious' of the free world would solve the energy crisis, in a matter of a few dozen months. Chew on that for a while. - jtbradyl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It is possible to convert from one form to another and gain energy. That is how the universe was formed.
- Kraemahz, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1@WaterDragon:
Sorry that was confusing. The sentence should read: "Plus, they don't cost nearly as much to maintain as solar cells." - taotehue, on 10/12/2007, -2/+1tell me how to invest I want to know. seriously!!!
- Ibox, on 10/12/2007, -1/+0you can get a eficient as you want, unles you get better than 100 percent, you might as well use the energy source you started with.
in other words if you convert one form of energy (steam)into another you lost otherwise usable energy to heat that will get wasted. hydrogen would be great if it came naturally by itself. - WaterDragon, on 10/12/2007, -3/+1@kraemahz
"Plants on the the other hand have been evolving for hundreds of millions of years to take the most advantage of the sun as they can. Plus, they don't cost nearly as much to maintain."
WTF are you saying? How do we have to 'maintain' the sun?And why is it so costly?
Can't the solar maintenance crews work for a little less? - bikeham, on 10/12/2007, -5/+1Nu-cular, it's pronounced Nu-cular
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