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- styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+14Fusion devices can NOT blow up. The energy required to get the reaction working is so high that if it breaks down then the reaction will simply stop.
I am currently doing a masters degree in Fusion research (based on Tokamak micro-instabilities) and next year will be starting a phd in fusion technology as well.
If anyone has any genuine questions about this i would be happy to answer any of them.
It IS an infinite source of energy as far as we're concerned. Basically for every 1 litre of Ordinary water, we can extract enough fuel from that equivalent to 500 litres of petrol. (check UKAEA website for proof)
We have MANY tokamak devices, along with laser fusion and stellarators built.
The Tokamaks also come in different brands based on the aspect ratio's of it's inner and outer radii.
Fusion requires the heating of the plasma to 100 million degree's celsius.
The way a Tokamak continues to heat and generate energy is through alpha-particle heating, this is a product of the fusion reaction producing a nuetron and alpha particle, the neutron then goes to make steam etc... At the point where alpha particle heating is enough to sustain the reaction it is called ignition. It is equivalent to lighting a lighter and then it stays lit so long as more gas comes through.
As for China: 37million is not very much, however, you get A LOT more bang for your buck in China. So that may be equivalent to 100's of millions in the west.
Good luck to them, they are going to find they get more problems than they know how to handle. I'm currently using quantum mechanical approximations to model an analytically unsolvable equation by numerical and computer methods. I'm also working under the worlds top fusion authority figure.
Admittedly China are much harder workers generally, and this appears to make them smarter. But they're less innovative, further to which, China is actually a member of the Fusion commitee in the west. So this move is slightly underhanded. - styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+8The device use's magnetic fields to confine the plasma, hence it never touches the walls.
These devices HAVE been built, many times, with improvement each time. Here's the thing, the closer we get to ignition the harder it becomes to reach ignition.
I think Jet is capable of reaching ignition but it's the Physics behind the devices that is being studied. ITER will be the first prototype of a comercial reactor. I.e. a fully working one that we get more energy out than we put in.
Although ITER will cost £10 bill (ish) compare that to the cost of the Iraq war (arbitrarily, no oil remarks haha) then it is dwarfed in comparison.
Once again, FUSION IS SAFE!! It is not a chain reaction like Fission. If the reaction for instance, in a nightmare scenario, broke down through the magnetic fields, touched the walls, melted them (even this wouldn't happen, more on this in a minute) then the system would lose so much heat that it would stop working. It is equivalent to cutting off the gas in a lighter, it simply goes out, it doesn't explode when you stop heating it.
As for the other reason why it is safe: At 100million degrees cent (bearing in mind temperature and pressure are directly proportional) the Plasma is at 1 atmosphere. This means that you have to use an evacuated system, so basically, there isn't enough 'material' to explode, or burn through anything. This also ensures the magnetic field confines the plasma.
Why do neutrons escape from the system? Simple, they have no charge and so are not confined by magnetic fields. Hence they are used to heat water, steam, turbine, electricity. Once the system starts cooling down, no more fusion reactions will take place, this means, no further neutrons or alpha particles either.
"SAFE!" Prof. Farnsworth - futurama
As for Spiderman 2, they use "Hollywood Physics" i.e. NOT Physics. The reason I don't like doing physics is i can't appreciate movies like that. That would never happen, not now, not ever, it's silly and it ruined the entire plot for me. Don't get me started on "The Core" or "The Day after Tomorrow" . Both of which used a tiny nugget of physics to fuel imagination! - styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+4@ Durrok:
In fact, a plasma is invisible unless it does radiate. So if we can see the plasma then there are collisions that are occuring that are degrading the plasma quality. If we can reduce these then there will be little or no radiation. (This is where i'm trying to help :) )
The radioactive concern for Tokamaks is that when the outer walls are bombarded with extremely highly energetic particles they themselves become radioactive. Due to the way a Tokamak confines the plasma (ie Magnetic fields ~ 7 Tesla) radiation whilst running is of no concern. However, a reactor once decomissioned must be left 40 or so years before it is able to be removed and buried. This is why Fusion power will not be cheaper than power now, (how much is maintanence and security for 40 years on an empty building?) Personally, I'd like to see a better way of dealing with this problem, but it's more important that we get it to properly work first. - mvail, on 10/12/2007, -1/+4waiting for the spiderman joke
- schwit61, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3The first "artificial sun" created on this planet happened on 1 Nov 1952 in the Pacific with the Ivy Mike thermonuclear explosion. The yield was 10.4 megatons.
BTW, a fusion reacter failure won't explode like a nuclear bomb or meltdown like a fission reacter. It's an apples to peanuts comparison. - SteveR4376, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Fresh from the "People's Daily Online." Now there's an unbiased source.
- EnzanBlues, on 10/12/2007, -0/+3Tokamaks already exist, and have existed for a couple of decades. Believe me, I did an entire research paper on nuclear fusion. I'm not a scientist or anything, but I did become pretty well informed on the subject. It's very hard to create (as we can all see from watching Spiderman 2, XD), but if anyone can do it, the Chinese can! More power to them, maybe they will have like a million scientists working on this one project.
- digitalsin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Can't wait to build the worlds first Artificial China
- nifixx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2whats wrong with the sun we have now?
- styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Scratch that "underhanded" remark:
"The program, still in its initial stages, involves Russia, Japan, the United States, the European Union, China and the Republic of Korea."
They are going to share the research, this is a very good thing, currently the worlds largest Tokamak is JET at Culham, Oxfordshire(i think). We could use a few more before ITER is built, so we can build it better. Now let's all stop using oil and play nicely. - zdlatham, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2and they are going to do with a team of cloned scientists.
- fgump, on 10/12/2007, -1/+2That's hot.
- In the words of Paris and Nicole - drawkbox, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1asimov was right: http://infohost.nmt.edu/~mlindsey/asimov/question.htm
- alski707, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1@ styryx
i'm unamused by the lack of your score moderation, +3 +3 +3 for you, i read this story on /. a few hours ago, and your posts are as good as anything, esp. for defeating all the "OMGZZ!! it's going to kill us all" crap, excellent job, and thanks on behalf on all the non-moderator's! =) - plmnpl, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Congradulations, you've blown us away with your eloquence. Seriously, though, before spewing out partially-informed crap, why don't you actually read up on your history? Oh, that's right. YOU CAN'T. China loves censoring history.
yeah, usa even need not bother to censor its history. too short 200 years or shorter? not worth mentioning at all ... what yankee have? you are just born at a high point of usa's history... you are going down.. no matter what. Chinese culture is the only civilization still there.,.,..it will prevail again ... i am 120% confident with that... China is speeding up with amazing 16.78% GDP increase last year... what is that of usa?
You stupid yankee really had no idea what Chinese young guys think about you. in their mind, you are short-sighted... naive.... self-centered... .. you just did not realize that... silly kid
All hate-mongering aside, everyone needs to sit down and shut up when it comes to politics. Nobody's perfect, so quit dissing other cultures because they piss you off. China has good points, and REALLY bad points. So does America. If China can pull this Artificial Sun off, then bravo.
Sure, if you yankee piss we Chinese off, we have the same power to let you guys vanished from this earth. Think about it, silly kid, usa army ever defeat Chinese? you even can not beat Vietam( our little tiny neighbouring country). you yankee are so coward. you can not afford loss of some stpuid yankee.
Oh, and by the way, China was very powerful for long periods of time in history. So were a lot of other countries. American immigrants weren't criminals from Britain, you're thinking of Australia. (Which is an awesome country, by the way).
usa= aus = a pile of shxt. ok? - styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1For ONE last time, it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to "blow up" Safe people, safe!
And the Chinese are in collaboration with the West. Even the 'censored' article it still states this. It's all the same goal, what they learn will ultimately benefit to the construction of ITER in France.
And for ALL the people who are slightly confused about the sun:: A fusion reaction for a particle in the sun happens once roughly every several hundred million years.(It may be more like a billion) The reason we see the star burning is that there are ridiculous numbers of particles in there. Consider the density of the sun under it's own gravity and that at 100million degrees a Tokamak is at ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE!
Now, re-read that last paragraph and explain to me exactly why you think that China creating an incredibly minute experiment that reaches conditions of the sun is all that much of a worry to blowing up China/World. The minimum mass needed to induce fusion is roughly one-tenth the sun's mass. THE EARTH isn't even nearly this!!
It's like thinking that if you hold your hand over a mug and then remove it all the air in the mug will BURST out. If anything it will suck particles in to the vacuum and cool the plasma ridiculously quickly, the plasma won't/CAN'T even leave the container. - spacenettnet, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Great article. Styx thanks for keeping us all informed and correcting us on our lack of nuclear and plasma knowledge. :-) ++digg
- styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Hey, thanks for all kind comments, guys. As a fusion scientist I'm just trying to get the facts across, I really believe in fusion as an incredible achievment for mankind. Clean, sustainable and SAFE energy for all.
I wouldn't like to predict when fusion power will become available. The reason that fusion constantly gets delayed is not because the current problems aren't solved/solvable. It is that we, as a race, understand very little about 100million degrees+ plasmas. The only knowledge we have is obviously looking at the light spectra from the sun. So when it is said "it will take 20 years" that isn't accounting for the problems that arise once the others are solved, which naturally cannot be predicted.
You can put it this way: We have fusion and fusion capabilities. We're just trying to get the very best prototype before comercial reactors are built. But computers are getting more powerful and technology is exponential. So the faster we develop the rate at which we develop also increases.
We know how to obtain fusion and it's mechanisms, the main area of research is in instabilities in the plasma, these degrade the quality of the plasma and cause loss of heat and particles, so once this is solved we will be well on our way. :)
As for the topic, China won't win this one by itself, it will be a group effort of ALL major countries, and this is also stated in the article, i believe. - nudasveritas, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1ALRIGHT LISTEN UP BOYS... i know exactly how this game is going to play out.
FIRST china builds an artificial sun...
SECOND japan builds a dyson's sphere around it
THIRDLY the sun becomes unstables and kills all life in the sphere
LASTLY the star trek enterprise comes in, recalibrates their shields to emit a generic "fix space-time" "quantum pulse" to save the day. and riker gets laid at the end of the episode.
FIN - tmanka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Styryx thanks a ton for helping out with this discussion. I have found your comments to be very informative, unlike what most people add to the discussion. BTW how far off do you think we are to a sustained and practical solution?
- degree, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1If they threw every other baby girl into the reactor instead of the ocean, china would be a real forward thinker.
- Draconiko, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"Fusion power plants aren't supposed to be available until 2050 and then at the cost of 50,000 simoleons. China *must* be cheating!"
i caught that lol nice
good to see there's still actual news on digg instead of just "look a game!", "funny picture!", or "omgbbqwtf its my blog! on digg! i r 1337!" - bitswapper, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1The power of the sun in the palm of my hand....
- MOGua, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"China != Quality Engineering."
true, but China* = cheap Engineering.
"China = BULK GARBAGE."
Maybe you should throw away your "bulk garbage" of a PC/Mac that you are posting from since it is IMPOSSIBLE that there are no parts from China* in it.
or you could rip those parts out yourself and try to find compatible parts that are made in USA. but good luck taking apart your HDD and LCD panel, those are bitch. not to mention you MIGHT have to throw away your CPU, RAM, and GPU.
*: China, including Taiwan. - grislygus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Congradulations, you've blown us away with your eloquence. Seriously, though, before spewing out partially-informed crap, why don't you actually read up on your history? Oh, that's right. YOU CAN'T. China loves censoring history.
All hate-mongering aside, everyone needs to sit down and shut up when it comes to politics. Nobody's perfect, so quit dissing other cultures because they piss you off. China has good points, and REALLY bad points. So does America. If China can pull this Artificial Sun off, then bravo.
Oh, and by the way, China was very powerful for long periods of time in history. So were a lot of other countries. American immigrants weren't criminals from Britain, you're thinking of Australia. (Which is an awesome country, by the way). - dimatt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Wrong Australia is not an awesome country
- inactive, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0lmao i know. i was just thinking the same thing about spiderman...
I hope it works..for the sake of my people.. - karch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0^^ i mean, if 1 gallon of water really _releases the energy_ of 300 gallons of oil.
and holy *****, that's a lot of energy. - grislygus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I think they're pretty chill. Or, at least, they were when I visited Sydney. I don't live there, so I could be wrong.
- OsakaWilson, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Now there is a conceivable movie plot. While America is busy making bombs and getting control of more oil real estate, China puts its resources into energy and is the first to produce clean unlimited energy.
- conorryan, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Looking at the feasibility of this, looks like China's got some propaganda going. I've been to Princeton Plasma Physics Labs where they designed the tokamak and even if they had a Manhattan style project with unlimited funding and minds then still are at least 3 years away from developing a working fusion reactor. China is definitely breaking ground on a reactor, but they are at least 5 (more like 7) years away from making Fusion a usable energy source.
- grislygus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"yeah, usa even need not bother to censor its history. too short 200 years or shorter? not worth mentioning at all ... what yankee have? you are just born at a high point of usa's history... "
The history, culture and roots of the United States stretch out long before the country was officially founded... And who said anything about a high point? We had the most power right after World War II. All we have right now is a bunch of failed international ventures. And you STILL didn't address my point about spewing out half-informed crap...
"You stupid yankee really had no idea what Chinese young guys think about you. in their mind, you are short-sighted... naive.... self-centered... .. you just did not realize that... silly kid"
How the hell didn't I realize it? I don't kow if you thought your people were being subtle about it, but the Chinese opinion of America has ALWAYS been rather obvious...
"Sure, if you yankee piss we Chinese off, we have the same power to let you guys vanished from this earth. Think about it, silly kid, usa army ever defeat Chinese? you even can not beat Vietam( our little tiny neighbouring country). you yankee are so coward. you can not afford loss of some stpuid yankee. "
Since when have we yankees NOT pissed off the Chinese? And we still have yet to be "vanished from this earth" - grislygus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"you can not afford loss of some stpuid yankee."
Wait... is that a big source of the condescension you have for us? That we don't like the idea of killing our people? Curious. - CrashKC, on 08/25/2008, -0/+0Ok, maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that news organization run by the Chinese government? That's like believing something you read in Pravda back in the Soviet days...
Need corroboration from a non-propaganda site. - jjustice, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Now I'd really be excited if the built the world's first artificial SON, a la the movie AI.
- HighTechJunkie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0FYI: Here is ITER's website (the next tokamak reactor planned by the international community--including China--to be built in France): http://www.iter.org/
- unclejesse0, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I need to go so that I can become Doctor Octopus.
- karch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0oh, and multiply that last number, 97.8 billion trillion, by 45.2 and you get a lower limit of the number of kilojoules of energy it would release. it's around 4.4 trillion trillion kj of energy, or in other words, 4.4 septillion kj.
- silasfank, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I think when the say "infinite source of energy" they mean it in a relative sense. 1 liter of water being equivalent to 300 liters of gasoline is pretty infinite if you ask me...
- plkrtn, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The term infinity means that it can't be anything in a relative sense.
$37,000,000 to build this... The new Wembley Stadium cost 4 times that.... I think we've got a nuclear disaster waiting to happen.... - sw96, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I R CHINA YOU BUY OK???
- killyourself, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I cant wait till they melt a hole through the earth! Nice!
Lets hope they know what thet are doing....Spiderman 2's fusion sun did go to well... - screensnot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"If a device is developed that can withstand temperatures as high as 100 million Celsius degrees and control a deuterium-tritium reaction, it will be as though an "artificial sun" had been created able to supply infinite, clean energy for human beings."
They need to talk to my roommate. There may be an answer to this in his bong. The fact that it hasn't melted down yet, despite the rigorous daily torching he gives it, is truly amazing.
My roommate also claims that marijuana has the power to unlock all of life's mysteries. - killyourself, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0thats what Im saying.
- Speak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I got the impression that the power source would last longer than humans, which then would be for all intents and purposes an infinite power source for humans, no?
- karch, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0ahaha, so according to howstuffworks, we have ~"326,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons (326 million trillion gallons)" on the surface of earth. if 1 gallon of water really gives 300 gallons of oil.. this is kind of pointless, but if we used all our water, that would translate into roughly 97,800,000,000,000,000,000,000 gallons (97.8 billion trillion gallons) of oil.
- kamizu, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Come on. You know parts are cheaper in china. That's why they're making it there. Imagine, when they finally complete it, somewhere on the bottom, scientists from other countries are gonna find that golden sticker we all know and love: "Made in China".
Seriously though, I read about this in physics a few years back. It's quite an interesting concept, one which I'd love to see achieved. I just hope there are no major accidents on the road ahead. - MrGeneric, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0China != Quality Engineering.
Quality Engineering = Fusion Reactor.
China = BULK GARBAGE. - Speak, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Also, it said "as if," meaning not that in actuality it would be infinite and perfectly clean, but it would seem that it were such in comparison.
- IceUck, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Two things I would add to the mandatory checklist before hiring a news person:
1) Learn how to correctly pronounce words like "nuclear" and the names of foreign countries and their dignitaries.
2) Take some basic science lessons. "Infinite energy" indeed! -
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