What is Digg?79 Comments
- cyberdork, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Reasons for China's success:
No labor laws, no safety laws, no unions to deal with = extremely cheap labor
Last week America mourned 12 dead miners. In 2004 around 6000 miners died in China.
Reasons why America could lose it's success:
strong fundamental religious movement (science = bad), research budget only for defense and prestige projects, isolationism (foreigners = bad), and most importantly the record budget deficit (guess who's one of Americas biggest creditor... China!)
I would prefer a democracy to be the main superpower, but right now I'd put my money on China. - chewbaka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@Berkana:
Just browsing through this page, your numerous comments are so steeped in vitriol and with a personal agenda against China so thinly veiled that it's hard to take your few good points seriously.
A few of your concerns:
-Piracy
In short, true. It is a commonly cited detraction, and here's the usual response:
http://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=4222
'nuff said
-Freedom, etc
"China is not much more free than it used to be; the culture is just less pervasively indoctrinated into Marxism than it used to be."
Get off the pop, pseudo-intellectualism. Is this based on anything substantial or just things you've heard somewhere. Yes we all know about the censored blogs and restrictions on journalists but do you know what China's past is like? Not even the distant past but say just 20 years ago. Have you even been to China? Seen the changes taking place on an almost daily basis? Or anything to make this assertion between past and present?
"I wonder how long before the subjugated proletariate masses left out of the new stratification and gentrification of China organize and throw another revolution."
Hmm thought u were talking about the US for a while there. read it again; sound familiar with the loss of civil liberties and growing income gap? Anyone would agree that China's power and potential lies w/ its huge "proletariate[sic] masses," not in subjugating it.
"And if you didn't notice, some of the biggest critics are themselves Chinese."
Meh, some of the biggest critics of the feminist movements were women.
@ JudgeDredd
"Can you name one original idea the Chinese are producing"
Come on, you didn't think you were really going to get away with this right? Making such a blanket statement like China doesn't have a single innovative idea?
Here's your answer: I don't pretend to know too much about Chinese innovation but just off the top of my head, the new search engine Baidu. Supposedly with results that rival Google's, it is the already the preferred search page in China. And the only reason I know of it is because it also had an IPO that rivaled Google's.
Also a quick search turned up this:
http://scientific.thomson.com/media/pdfs/gr001xinnovations.pdf
It's a list of the most innovative countries as defined by the number of patent applications. Sounds like a reasonable benchmark. If china isn't innovating like you say, then 187 other countries in the world must really be slacking off, cause china is #5.
And the thing is, it was #26 just 7 years ago.
hmm that was a lot longer than i planned to say, but some things needed to be said. thanks for reading - leimus, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2Common themes in the responses are:
1.) China steals/buys technology instead of developing their own.
This is true in the current sense, but in the past China was a great innovator. Currency, paper, gunpowder, compass, civil service exam, etc were all Chinese inventions that the backward West took and used for its own. I have no doubt that the masses of Chinese engineers and scientists being trained right now to compete with the complacent and lazy western liberal arts majors will dominate in this century. China's brain drain will steadily decline while western countries outsource more.
2.) China doesn't have the freedoms of the west.
Also very true. China is very repressive, which is a huge problem. However, China is changing slowly and steadily. Yes, in the short term, China seems to be more repressive, but compared to China 40 years ago, there are many more freedoms. To have China change from a repressive regime to democracy overnight with such a huge population is national suicide. Just look at the former USSR.
Also, western style democracy for such a large country is not guaranteed to work. India has a democracy, but its government is slow, bloated, and heavily in debt.
3.) Chinese-made stuff is cheap and crappy.
Manufacturing quality doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Even the Japanese were flawed before its industry adopted statistical tools to maximize quality. And last time I checked, certain US made product are not exactly ultra reliable either (e.g. Ford Pinto, Space Shuttle Columbia). However, no one in the west can argue that Chinese manufacturing is dominating the lower cost goods arena. Eventually, the Chinese will wise up and move up the quality and value chain. These people are not stupid, they know that they have to have higher levels of quality before they can sell overseas. - Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+2@behemothaur:
China is not much more free than it used to be; the culture is just less pervasively indoctrinated into Marxism than it used to be. Blogs are censored like mad, and journalists are still treated harshly for fair reporting that sheds bad light on their authorities. A few counter-examples here and there do not prove that China is any more free; the over all trend in China is still one of deception veiling totalitarianism (unless the government makes a buck off of your crime, in which case, it turns a blind eye, like in the case of piracy and counterfeiting). And good luck to you if you want to even search for anything with forbidden terms; the search engines are censored as well.
(Before anyone freaks the hell out about my less than flattering comments about China, I'd like to declare that my ethnicity is Chinese, and that my comments are regarding government, not race or ethnicity.) - JudgeDredd, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1What is with all this pro-China rhetoric as of late? Wake up. China is a horrible country. The freedoms we take for granted are non-existent in Sino. Do you like news? Well Xinhua will provide that for you. If you would like a source other than provided by the CCP, you risk jail. Then there is the pollution and the massive corruption. I still have HK residency, but the ***** still refuse my visa to visit mainland. Joi geen. I guess I am mostly bitter over the visa issue and that the CCP put pressure on my server's owner to shut down my message board. The server was not even based in China. The PRC cannot innovate. Their economy is fueled on foreign investment an cheap labor. Can you name one original idea the Chinese are producing (gun powder and paper do not count)?
- shig, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1I hate oppression as much as the next man, but none of this China bashing(or my disgust with America the past 4 1/2years) will improve our 700billion dollar trade deficit, our 450billion dollar budget deficit, or the fact that we have 2% more of our population below the poverty line. It certainly doesn't do them any good either. I truly believe they could be so much better than us, what would prevent them? Is it that you think they should always be considered less than American? Do you put pressure on your Representatives, Senators, and President to decry such oppression? Do you take time and $.39 to write a simple letter, phone call? Do you "vote with your wallet" instead of using easier more effective means? I think both our countries could do better than what they have. They need encouragement, self worth, and hope, instead of dehumanization. Let's face it, if a 1% of China was willing to unify and dissent, openly challenge the CCP, they would have 3x of the claimed membership of the CCP which took power in 1949. At 13million people, that's an incredibly powerful minority.
Yes, China's human rights violations and government corruption are both extremely rampant. They still have a mere fraction of the prisoners per 100k than say, America (Total prisoner population: America=2.1million, China=1.4million). America having the largest prison population on the planet, we also have the largest per 100k. Per 100k we have 3x that of Iran, 5x Tanzania, 7x Germany. 1/142 Americans are in jail, right now, not including military prisons, brigs, or INS. In the 20 years from 1980 to 2000 the U.S. population grew 21%, and the number of state and federal inmates grew 312%. 500,000 of those are in jail for drug-only offenses. I guess you could still say that is better than China, who have been known to kill drug suspects out right. None the less don't trip up, because our judges are quick to hand you a nickel in some privatized penitentiary work (slave labor) camp where you'll make $.03hr assembling widgets. - HiddenForce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1"How much better would a new, "democratic" replacement government really be?"
For an example of what the Chinese people can do with a democratic government, all we have to do is look across the Straight of Formosa. The PRC should be looking at Taiwan as an example of what they should be doing rather than trying to make it "return to the fold." The child has grown up, moved out, and matured. The PRC should embrace that fact and learn from it. - crapiolio, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Here's a hint: Learn Chinese.
- lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1v3xt0r wrote: "
Why do we do business w/ Communist-Run China, but not Communist-Run Cuba?"
Because Cuba is a true communist country, and we just can't stand that. That's why we still have a blockade on Cuba: because the Uber-Capitalist Nation That Is America cannot stand to see the communist system do well, anywhere.
It's okay if China suceeds a bit, they're Communists In Name Only and everyone knows they're really a Capitalist country. - dickyducky, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1Communist Chin@, i mean PRC, is no longer left, but right, in the extreme sense, i.e. Nationalsozialismus
i live in Hong Kong - Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1. . . and if anyone noticed, China didn't produce any of it's high tech firms: they're either acquired, as Lenovo acquired parts of IBM, or they are rooted in foreign investment, usually via Taiwan. And what's left of it is not native innovation and R&D as can be seen in Germany, the Netherlands, South Korea, and Japan, but patent violations, industrial espionage, and copy-cat/counterfeit crap. (as can be seen in engadget's "Keepin' it real fake" postings)
Even their "10 Architechtural wonders of the New China" (http://digg.com/design/10_Amazing_Architecture_Wonders_of_the_New_China ) are all contracted to foreign design, engineering, and construction firms. China wants to boast of the world's first commercially operating maglef train, but it's still the Germans who will have designed and built anything tech-worthy about it.
I wonder how long before the subjugated proletariate masses left out of the new stratification and gentrification of China organize and throw another revolution. Oh, I forgot--they CANT, because the "People's Liberation Army" brutally crushes any attempt at unionizing and organizing the oppressed working masses who are fed up with their government turning a blind eye to their plight while fixating on how cool their super hot tech-heavy urban growth is. - lowbot, on 10/12/2007, -0/+1China fuels your OMGLOLWTF gaming/computing lifestyle. Walmarts 'buy america' campaign didnt work. All your consumer electronics are made there. Get used to it, you helped create the market. These anti-chinese posts are hilarious coming from Chinese-made keyboards.
- Porgie, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"Ever been to China? Know anyone who is from the mainland? What you *need* to understand is that the country is evolving massively, including moving towards openness and higher levels of civil rights and liberty.
Ignorance like yours fosters resentment and hate - grow the ***** up and do some research before you spout ***** on a public forum. Arse."
behemothaur posted by behemothaur (0) at 01:48 AM 1/08/06
Yes! Actually, I do know someone from China. My next door neighbor of 3 years. He defected from his job while he was in America because he was up on charges of saying something he "shouldn't" have. And the charges he was up on could have led to his execution. China is no evolving land of peace and freedom. Their government only likes us economically. Do you really think they have any intentions of giving up power? Why don't you find out what you're talking about before you start brutally attacking someone verbally. - stonebear, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1Aside from the obvious political reasons to keep your money out of China, products made in China are crap. The rate of defect for consumer electronic products from Japan is 35 - 40%, for those made in China it's 65 - 70%. Dazzled by their low price, I got burned a couple of times. Never again, the low price is not worth the grief.
- 883XL, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0China = America's outsourced pollution
- forezt, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0One thing that I'm pretty sure people have failed to answer for themselves is:
How much better would a new, "democratic" replacement government really be?
As history shows, the Chinese are very good at replacing a terrible government with an even worse one. Sure, a few years after the People's Republic began, things were patriotic and for the most part, people were looking forward to a better future. Then, in the 70s, when the open-door policy was put in place, it was a tell-tale sign that Mao's ideals had faded away and something strange had happened to the fervor that once rallyed hundreds of millions of people to overthrow a feudalist government. This strange thing is something we in the US should be very familiar with of late: greed, corruption, and the crony system.
So, we all know that there's a lot of corruption in China's government. We know that they'll stand for censorship and participate in graft, create laws that limit the rights of their people and do it all looking down from a nice, high, comfortable place. But who are you to say that the solution to all of this is democracy and/or a new government? Is it working for us?
At this point in time, revolution would do one thing for China and one thing only: replace one set of scoundrels with another.
That said, we in the US have to keep in mind that China - being out largest trading partner, physically and perhaps very soon, culturally - isn't solely dependent on itself for the state of its human rights. We can do more than fault China's government: we can fault ours at the same time, and then do something about it. - bnolsen, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1I'll have to comment again, this will get me tons of crap but I think it has to be said.
One reason why China is doing so well is because they are allowed to have more freedom. Freedom of religion to some degree, although it is still abused.
Response to "cyberdork"
"strong fundamental religious movement (science = bad)"
I can't believe people have been pushing this hack pseudo science called evolution which violates logic in so many ways and more importantly the 2nd law of thermodynamics. And the fact that the court system is more than willing to silence any other options being taught. Mainstream fundamental protestants have a problem because most of the are stupid because they don't pay attention to their bibles.
"research budget only for defense and prestige projects"
What's wrong with defense. Isn't the first and foremost task of a nation to defend it's people from foreign enemies? And defense research is probably the most effective bang for the buck. Interstingly enough one of the side effects of having wars is mass technological innovation.
"isolationism (foreigners = bad)"
Foreigners aren't bad, just the ones who blatantly violate the law and hide terrorists among their midst. If you want shining examples of racism in the modern world the last place you look is the US. Things are getting bad when people are trying to leave your country, not when they're trying to get in.
"and most importantly the record budget deficit (guess who's one of Americas biggest creditor... China!)"
This is a problem, initially started by FDR's first push into socialism. LBJ kicked open the doors to socialism and it's all been downhill since there. One definition of socialism being when people look to their government as God instead of going to the real one. And making government your God is an expensive proposition. Cradle to the grave care needs lots of money. - behemothaur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Hong Kong had SARS sitk - that a hole full of ***** too?
- dougb, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0::Reasons why America could lose it's success: strong fundamental religious movement
stupidass commies. Jesus LOVES america. godless marxists can keep the techie stuff we don't need it. as long as i got my plastic jesus.
http://www.presidentialprayerteam.org/
"PRESIDENT BUSH APPRECIATES REGULAR PRAYER FOR WOUNDED" - MOGua, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"China will never produce companies of the caliber of Macromedia, Adobe, Apple, Autodesk, nor a native game industry."
Why create similar companies over again when you can just buy their stuff?!
The US will never produce companies of the caliber of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, AUDI, nor Porsche.
Germany will never produce companies of the caliber of SONY, TOSHIBA, Nintendo, nor Panasonic.
Japan will never produce companies of the caliber of TSMC, China Mobile, ASUS, nor HTC.
You can't always have the best/biggest of everything. - Ramble, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Yes, a digital revolution..
You mean the chinese cultural revolution. - Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@MOGua: (Quote)
Why create similar companies over again when you can just buy their stuff?!
The US will never produce companies of the caliber of Mercedes-Benz, BMW, AUDI, nor Porsche.
Germany will never produce companies of the caliber of SONY, TOSHIBA, Nintendo, nor Panasonic.
Japan will never produce companies of the caliber of TSMC, China Mobile, ASUS, nor HTC.
You can't always have the best/biggest of everything.
_____________________________________________________________
Your comparison is not valid for the following reasons:
The US has a car industry. Ford and GM own/partially own many foreign subsidiaries (Jaguar, Mazda, Volvo, Saab, Vauxhaul, etc.), and though they made serious miscalculations that lead to their current financial woes (like betting the family farm on SUV's), the US still produces and designs and innovates in the field of automobiles.
Germany doesn't have Sony, Toshiba, Nintendo, nor Panasonic, in terms of companies with the same capitalization in the consumer market, but they have Braun, Bosch, Siemens, and Bertelsman (media), and they have demonstraited more than enough competency to be considered of the same caliber. Daimler Benz (pre-merge with Chrystler) was engaged in advanced R&D in at least as many fields of electronics as any Japanese zaibatsu.
As for the companies you listed (TSMC, China Mobile, ASUS, HTC. . . Chinese, I presume) how much of their research and development is native? How much of their technology was developed in China? If it's not native, they're not a tech powerhouse. Having the most mobile phone customers doesn't make you a powerhouse of Mobile wireless technology. Nokia (of Finland), for example, is a 'powerhouse' of wireless technology. So far as I have seen, China is a market for technology, but not yet a 'powerhouse'. - oblivinated, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@ Berkana
A democratic government in a developing country such as China will never work. Look at the speed the United States senate makes decisions. Amazingly and ridiculously slow. If a country like China uses a similar system, nothing will ever get done. Their semi communist attitude helps the country grow at an amazing rate.
behemothaur and lowbot, I salute you two. ^_^
China already is a powerhouse. Holding as much power as the United States in the UN (they both have veto powers). Americans, open yours eyes. - Meshyf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Who didn't see this coming.
- Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0(BTW, I don't see any pro-China bias on digg. A good number of the articles that come up for searches on the term "China" are about censorship and other lameness.)
- Satanstorm, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Will people in China line up for days to get the new XBOX 360? Or wet their pants over another proliterated minded (i.e. brainless) movie like Mr. and Mrs. Smith? Only time can tell.
- oblivinated, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@ Berkana
Just FYI, I am posting this from China. Yes, mainland China. Foreigner living overseas. Ex-Pat, I think you call us.
Moving on. Yes it is true that many of China's tech firms are acquired, and much of its technology is taken from overseas, but every country starts of like this. The United States' landmark, the amazing Statue of Liberty. Who was it from? The French. Just like the US, China will move on, and they will begin to develop their own technologies. - oblivinated, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@superdigg
Just use proxies XD. - superdigg, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0cool, i live here.
and i see a little debate about oppression and censorship going on -
let me confirm that this is very real. maybe no public executions these days, but TONS of sites are blocked off from access. - Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@oblivinated:
Sure, China will move on. But it's not appropriate to call them a tech powerhouse until they have, just as it would not have been appropriate to call the US an engineering powerhouse back when we had to hire foreign firms to do all our engineering. - usergentoo, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Maybe they will be China's government promotes and supports desktop Linux very strongly
- HiddenForce, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@behemothaur
"Ignorance like yours fosters resentment and hate"
You call me ignorant, yet you are proving yours. You cannot POSSIBLY know what I know and don't know.
@lollerskates
No, things are not as bad as they were from Mao's revolution through the Cultural Revolution, but what little freedom that has been gained by the Chinese people have been gained since Mao's death and Deng Xiaoping's reforms. Deng went "too far" (in the eyes of the Party), however and the people thirsted for more, leading to Tiananmen Square. The government has been trying to put the genie back in the bottle since then by clamping down more and more on the personal freedom gains that have been made up to then. That is the root of my statement.
China is not a country to be trifled with, that is certain. They may very well be "the next tech powerhouse" (for reasons that others have stated here), but unfortunately, the people are paying a high price for it with the ever-waning freedom they have gained over the years.
(PS: Digg's dictionary has "Tiananmen" misspelled! :P) - imagine, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0...................................
- lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0shig wrote: "I guess you could still say that is better than China, who have been known to kill drug suspects out right."
Well yeah, they're fiercely anti-drug in China. But how can you blame them? They lost their freedom due to the trade of opium. It was opium and drugs that caused the Opium Wars, the wars in which all of the European countries and Japan took over China.
China just had a really bad trip, man. They don't want to take that ***** anymore. - bnolsen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Oh btw, I'll add that I think Eastern Europe has a better future than China.
Low taxes, almost no infrastructure to draw taxes for, low expectations for governmental services. They're lean and mean and poised to kill the socialist countries of the West (yes, Amerika is very socialist).
The only thing Eastern Europe is missing are shipping lanes.... - bnolsen, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0I've been to shanghai twice and am going again next month.
I guess it's okay there, they have some of those "electronics malls" with a bunch of mini stores selling things. I honestly wasn't too impressed with the prices nor the selection.
Since I'm not into mini personal electronics I totally ignored the MP3 tyep players al together.
I have to admit, I saw one chinese teenage girl on the subway with an ipod. Aside from hers I only saw what we'd consider no-name players. I did see pretty much only HDTV's in the houses I went to.
Personally I think internet shopping is the way to go for cheap selection and research. - styryx, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0It's not all bad... I LOVE chinese food!
China has the numbers, the know-how and the tenacity to pwn 1337 wise.
411 - They don't speak 'Chinese' try Cantonese and Mandarin. - BadDolphin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Within 20 years, China will be so far ahead of us in EVERY way (including personal liberty, maybe especially in that area) that we will already have given up on even staying in the game. Kiss this great American lifestyle goodbye, because it's on its way out fast. Mark my words.
- chewbaka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0@styryx:
Those are just the biggies. There's almost too many different languages to count in China. But my understanding is they do all speak "Chinese" = mandarian (putonghua), or at least that's the idea of a national standardized language. - mdepolli, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Without freedom there can be no innovation. Without innovation there can be no cultural or technological development -- only reproduction of what has been accomplished by others.
- Berkana, on 10/12/2007, -1/+1@behemothaur: (Quote)
Ignorance like yours fosters resentment and hate - grow the ***** up and do some research before you spout ***** on a public forum. Arse.
________________________________
Fosters resentment and hate from whom? people like you? How about you not spouting ignorant resentment and hate and ***** on a public forum?
If you didn't notice, the critics who lament the repression of dissenting ideas in China are criticizing the government of China, not hating the people. And if you didn't notice, some of the biggest critics are themselves Chinese.
Ignorance like yours fosters resentment and hate (your own) - grow up and do some research before you spout nonsense on a public forum. - lollerskates, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0HiddenForce wrote: "More and more tech in China, but at the same time, less and less freedom. Some trade-off."
Or so you think. They've been getting more and more freedom since Mao's revolution. It's just that the whole revolution thing was practically just as strict as Stalin's rule, so the huge leaps in rights are still nothing compared to those of Europe's or the US's.
Tienamen Square is nothing compared to what happened during Mao's rule; at least a fourth of China isn't dying right now.
JudgeDredd wrote: "Can you name one original idea the Chinese are producing (gun powder and paper do not count)?"
Torture! Ell - Oh - Ell.
But really, a democracy would be WORTHLESS for China. China has, since the dawn of their civilization, been an Empire, or at least a Monarchy. And in a way, the bloody revolutions there have served as their grassroots democracy. Without a strong ruler in China, nothing could have been done.
Expect more civil rights, but don't expect a full blown democracy. It just won't work. - behemothaur, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0So I guess the point is - China is going off at the moment and Americans are pissed off that it's not them. If I was America I would be worried about myself first and another major power's world-leading economic growth second, or maybe even further down the list. What really confuses me is how there can be so much vitriol from a country with a squalid and violent past who from an era of phenomenal growth and innovation has become fat, complacent & jealous of countries like India & China. You were there once guys, back when Europe never believed you would get off the ranch and learn to read & write. What has happened to you, you were an inspiration to so many less developed nations, now you act like a spoilt old poof?
Oh and Berkana - I live in China and graduated from university with honours in its modern history. It's OK - I am sure there are plenty of people with Chinese ancestry who lack knowledge of the current state of their ancestral home, you are only human and you are what you read/view. - loveandrockets, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"GI, YOU'RE HELICOPTERS WILL FALL FROM SKY LIKE BROKEN BIRDS GI..."
[ I go to second floor of pagoda and shoot loudspeaker out. And yes, China did supply the Vietnamese during the war. ] - matcrawf, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0go china
- rderveloy, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0The irony of the whole thing is that the purpose of the internet and modern computer (read: digital) technology is to promote the free exchange of ideas and concepts, yet China continues to squash freedom of speach and freedom of religion. I fear that China's digital revolution might not be very peaceful once all it's citizens grasp the potential that the internet offers.
- sitk, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0HAHA what a load of *****, China is a giant hole full of *****, a billion people and SARS, all mixed together.
- ThisGeek, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Aye means yes in most of Britain as well.
- chewbaka, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0"China just had a really bad trip, man. They don't want to take that ***** anymore."
haha - Rounin, on 10/12/2007, -0/+0Is this before or after the Chinese economy tanks due to peasant uprisings and banking scandals?
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